The "Lanfear to Cyndane" problem

[Mr Ares]

We know that you are arguing your interpretation. We are pointing out that said interpretation is supported by nothing. But a thought has arisen in my mind. Burning out is done to oneself by drawing too much of the power (by your interpretation), while stilling is done to one by a third party (also by your interpretation), correct? Yet the theory put forward, that it was the destruction of the ter'angreal (ter'angreal are dangerous when mishandled at the best of times, so we are warned, and this was far from the best of times) is neither. If anything it is surely closer to stilling than burning out, if we consider the doorway to be a third party - it is not something they did to themselves as a result of drawing too much power, at any rate, so therefore they were not burnt out but stilled, correct? So where is the problem? They were stilled and Cyndane was Healed from that, and you can hardly argue that that is impossible given that we have seen it done.

i addressed that i believed that it could be caused by a ter'angrael in a previous comment.

and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)

also if you read in the book why a ter'angrael burns you out, it's "Because you draw too much of the one power than you can handle"  and also, seeing as it's an object that the person is using, such object throeritically can't be called a "third person"

 

it would be like a person stickign there hand on a stove and getting burned, versus another person comming in and placing the first persons hand on the stove to get burned.  if the first person is using coooking with a pan and accidently touches the burner, it's still their own fault for getting burned, it's still self inflicted.

 

stove=power

cooking pan= ter'angrael

I see (I think. Half the stuff you say could mean anything). You think that it is possible to be burned out by a ter'angreal designed for that purpose. Possible, but hardly relevant. After all, the doorway was not designed to burn out the user. As to what it says in the book, which one? There are twelve books, the shortest more than 400 pages and the longest more than 1,000. Provide a quote or a reference. How did the doorway cause them to start drawing on the Power again? We have no evidence, that I can see, that it did. I suppose if you start entering someones house and it collapses on you that would als be self-inflicted? In any case, your stove metaphor needs an outside party - the stove itself. Moiraine and Lanfear were severed by the ter'angreal, not by themselves. Going by your definition (which is clearly insufficient and inccurate) it could only be burning out if the ter'angreal caused them to start drawing too much power, which we have no evidence that it did or could do. So your definition is wrong, and if that is wrong it demolishes the whole foundation of your argument. Because if it is possible for something other than overdrawing on the power to burn you out then it is possible that you can be burnt out by, say, someone smashing their way out of the shield you were maintaining and overstressing your ability in the process.

 

So it makes perfect sense for Shai'tan to reduce the effectiveness of one of His tools to no gain to Himself after already punishing her with the mindtrap? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like doing that would be Him shooting Himself in the foot (do you think that shooting yourself in the foot is a good idea? Try it.) and even if all that results is a negligible flesh wound, that is still hardly a compelling reason to do it. But what if that flesh wound gets infected and you lose the foot because of it? A bit more of a blow, I would say. The law of unintended consequences. Unfortunately for the Light, you are not in charge of the Shadow, as you would no doubt make their job much easier. She has already been hit where it hurts the most - she is leashed. Anything beyond that is needless. Furthermore, it is out of character.  Nothing about that supports tht He is likely to impair her strength, quite the reverse.

 

Furthermore, we also don't know that Shai'tan can easily do anything like Healing her. we don't know if He knows any form of Healing. We don't know what the effec of attempting to use the True Power to Heal severing would be - it might be impossible. We don't know what loss or gain of strength might possibly result. In short we are dealing with far more unknowns than it is reasonable to do so given that we have a perfect know in using saidar to Heal her - that is the only thing we know that could cause her loss of strength. Knowledge beats assumptions. So the overwhelmingly most likely option is thus established as they were severed and Cyndane was Healed by a woman. A theory backed up by evidence, reason and Mr Ares. What more could you want? What holes are there? How can you fail to be won round?

while you make a good point in it would be hurting himself doing so (after reading the quote from RJ) but there is no evidence other than her diminished strength to suggest she was healed.  and i'm of the opinion that if RJ would have had a BA member heal her we would have also had a point in the book where such memeber boasts about it in her mind, about how useful she was to the DO and so on.

Why? How would said BA pov advance the story? Would she just brag or would she be part of one of the existing plotlines? How would this help the story? Seems to me like it would require a fair bit of work to get this new character involved and all to no real gain. What could she do that couldn't be done elsewhere with other characters already known? (If he uses an existing character then it would invoolve revealing a BA sister, probably before RJ had any intention of revealing her alignment, which would also not benefit the story.) And as for the loss of strength being the only bit of evidence that she was Healed, what else could cause a loss of strength? What alternative theory do you have?

 

to me, it makes much more sense to just say the DO did it.  and what makes healing a person more harder than bringing them back to life?  if anything it's brining a person back to life that is much harder than healing someone.

Thank you, O blind and deaf woman, your opinion on whether sight or hearing is the easier sense to master is appreciated. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH ONE IS HARDER FOR SHAI'TAN? YOU DON'T. You say it is and base it on nothing. Look at Healing. It is a Talent. Some can do it, others can't. Some are better than others. What if Shai'tan lacked the Talent for Healing but possessed a unique Talent for resurrection?

 

and i'm not even suggesting now (because you guys are right, the DO is the source of the True Power) that the DO channeled to do it.  we'v been lead to think that the reason why the DO is trapped in the first place is because he can reach out and touh the pattern and re-make the world in his own image.  that he can touch the pattern itself. 

 

to me, seeing as he has brought back members of the forsaken, suggests that he has direct influence and contact with their threads after they die. (unless Balefire is used because then the thread is burnt out of the pattern and no longer exists; reason why Be'lal and Rahvin can't be reborn)  we see that he does, infact have this ability because Osan'gar and Aran'gar are re-born into the pattern.  so instead of bringing Lanfear back to life and having her healed, why is it so wrong to assume that instead, the DO patched her thread with his magical duct tape (because in reality duct tape is wonderful and holds the universe together ;) lol) and as a result lowered her strength.

If He's so wonderful that He can bring people back from the dead and Heal her magically from anything and has unlimited powers why can't He Heal her all the way. For the same reason He wouldn't reduce her strength as punishment, He is unlikely to only partially Heal her. A BA sister, on the other hand, would be unable to Heal her completely, because only a man could Heal her all the way. So it makes sense from that point of view.

 

though i still like the idea of it being extra punishment for lanfear, though after reading the thing from RJ you guys are right it isn't the DO's m.o. but i still refuse to believe the involvement of a BA member is needed.

A measure of progress, at last. Hurray!

 

also here is another point i'd like to suggest.  maybe lanfears decreased strength is a result of her bargin with the fins.  maybe for escape, the only price she could pay was to give them some of her life; and the finns being who they are took her life as well because it allowed her escape.  we know the type of creatures they are, and from my memory of matt's encounter with them, such a suggestion is not at all above them.  theres nothing to suggest that Lanfear had every had dealings with the Finn's before.

Which bargain would that be then? We have no evidence she has ever bargained with the Eelfinn. What would she have to give them that they can't take from her? All we know is that she was a prisoner. We have no reason to believe they treat with prisoners, do we?

 

Except your not arguing, you are stating as fact. The mode of your comments don't allow any room for interpretation--you state what you think to be the case as the case. Surely you can't be shocked that your unilateral comments about what is the case, which are based only on your own opinion, are met with disdain, or even outright anger?

if you've noticed, the only time i've gotten remotely angery is by your outright disrespect towards me and calling me by that pet name "champ" on the previous page.  other than that i've shown no hostility towards arguing over what i think is right as far as in this series.  liek i said before, boards like this are made for discussing such points as this.  and i will further add that no one will always agree on the same points, which is why said discussions are held in the first place.  heck, theres still people out there who believe DD is alive; even after DH was released and even after JKR came out and said "No he's dead i apologize for making the website ddisnotdead.com useless" before the release of DH.  even so, when new members came onto the site and argued what we believed as fact, we appeased them and debated with them until we were running in circles, then when a clear consensus couldn't be reached we, agreed to disagree.  but we never called the members rude or such names for thinking the way they did and bringing up a discussion we've already discussed time and time again because we were happy to have new people on the board so late in the series that could also contribute to different parts of the site other than discussing the book.

If you've noticed, it was never suggested that you were angry at you for stating your opinions as facts, nor for making unilateral comments about what you believed to be the case. It was stated that you made others angry for those things, which is not untrue.

 

Fine. State it as what you have read--as your opinion. People will disagree with your--for instance we know as fact that other things can cause being burned out than drawing on too much of the power

and here i'm going to ask you again to quote in the book where it says or suggests one can be burnt out by any other means than drawlign in too much of the power.  by all accounts we are told that is exactly what leads to the result of being burnt out. quote one example from teh books that says "so and so was burnt out" that wasn't a case of self-infliction. the three AS and Cyndane arent examples of this.  theres no clear cut point that Cyndane was either stilled or burnt out as we're not told that she was, and we are told numerous times by the three AS, the wise ones, other AS and Rand that they were Stilled.

Setalle Anan/Martine Janata was burned out by a ter'angreal. Ter'angreal are repeatedly stated as things that can burn someone out if mishandled.

 

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them)

And your thoughts about what we have already stated about that reality are...?

that being burnt out is one caused by self-infliction and being stilled is the result of a third parties doing.  i can't say it any more clear cut than that.

But what about ter'angreal burning people out, in incidents that don't involve drawing too much of the power and which can't be considered self-inflicted due to the fact it is a ter'angreal doing it to them?

 

So, two channelers fall through a ter'angreal that destroys itself--and arn't burnt out? From there we have the fact that in that process Moiraines bond is snapped, a result that only occurs from being severed from the source. Then we have the fact that both women are imprisoned by the Finns for some considerable time--despite the fact that the power works against them easily. Then we have Cyndane appearing with a decreased strenth, again something that we've not see without severing.

they weren't using that ter'angrael to drawl in more power and by all acounts in the book, the only instances we've heard of someone being burnt out by a ter'angrael is when their using it to draw in more of the power.  also, while we know that channeling works well against the "foxes" (Aelfinn) the only person we've known to go into the "Snakes" (Eelfinn) is Matt, and he wasn't able to channel at all.  so there for we have no idea what type of means the Snakes have to defend themselves of the power or that you can even channel in their domain.

How about you provide quotes for any of that, seeing as how you like to ask for quotes from us. Again, sticking with what is known: Lan's bond could only have been snapped by death or severing and Moiraine isn't dead - therefore she is severed. Cyndane's drop in strength is of a character only previously seen in those women Healed by women after severing - so Lanfear was severed. And ter'angreal are repeatedly referenced as dangerous and liable to burn out the unwary.

 

You are quite correct, we have no evidence of them being severed at all.

 

As for the Dark One healing them--that we do have no evidence for, and furthermore him healing her to a weaker degree is silly--he has he soulbound, and beyond that he only weakens himself by weakening her, and he's shown his position on that quite clearly.

i agree that it would weaken him even more and is not his MO to do so after reading the post by Mr. Ares.  but as i also argued, i still don't see the need to bring in a BA member to heal her when the "healing" can be done by the DO; if she even had to be healed in the first place and it wasn't a result of a bargin with the snakes

Now who's being disrespectful? Such utter, monstrous disrespect. If this is the level of respect you show people in real life then I feel even more sorry for you. This not only reflects badly on you, but on every board on which you are a member of staff, a member - in fact, on every board you have ever even glanced at. I hope you have seen the  monstrous and unforgivable error you have made, and will abase yourself before the gods and beg forgiveness for your unspeakable crime! Also, how about a quote that says Shai'tan can Heal anything at all, let alone severing? How about a quote that indicates a bargain with the snakes or the foxes? Or a quote that says burning out can't be Healed? Or can only be caused by drawing too much of the Power? In fact, how about a quote to back up any of your opinions?

[Paviel]

Also, how about a quote that says Shai'tan can Heal anything at all, let alone severing?

 

Didn't Ishamael heal Lews Therin with the True Power?

 

Granted, that might be a bit different from Shai'tan himself healing anyone...

 

On a different note, I'd say that if the attitudes of the Forsaken (who until recently thought that it was impossible to heal severing) filter through to the Dark One, it logically follows that the True Power cannot heal severing.

[Mr Ares]

Also, how about a quote that says Shai'tan can Heal anything at all, let alone severing?

Didn't Ishamael heal Lews Therin with the True Power?

 

Granted, that might be a bit different from Shai'tan himself healing anyone...

 

On a different note, I'd say that if the attitudes of the Forsaken (who until recently thought that it was impossible to heal severing) filter through to the Dark One, it logically follows that the True Power cannot heal severing.

Ishamael did indeed use the True Power to Heal Lews Therin - indeed, he used it to Heal him of Taint madness, something which is apparently inpossible for the One Power - so it follows that just as saidar and saidin both have different limitations as to what is possible and different ways of going about doing what is possible, there are also things that are possible for the TP that are beyond the OP - and vice versa. Furthermore, we are also faced with the reality you point out, that just because the TP can do it, doesn't mean Shai'tan can - it might be, for example, that operating on such a level is beyond Him. We KNOW it is not beyond Aes Sedai. And even if it is possible with the TP, and even if it is possible for Shai'tan, there is still no telling that He actually knows how. You point out the reality of the Chosen's biases seeping through to Shai'tan, so if they believed it impossible then He could very well think the same. For Red to simply state that it is "easier" to get Shai'tan to do it is highly inaccurate. One last point - side effects. Use saidar to Heal a woman, it is incomplete, same if you use saidin on a man. So what would using the TP  do to you? Would you be weaker? Madder? A TP junkie?

[Luckers]

Quote from: Red2111 on May 13, 2008, 10:25:12 AM

and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)

 

also if you read in the book why a ter'angrael burns you out, it's "Because you draw too much of the one power than you can handle"  and also, seeing as it's an object that the person is using, such object throeritically can't be called a "third person"

 

it would be like a person stickign there hand on a stove and getting burned, versus another person comming in and placing the first persons hand on the stove to get burned.  if the first person is using coooking with a pan and accidently touches the burner, it's still their own fault for getting burned, it's still self inflicted.

 

stove=power

cooking pan= ter'angrael

 

I actually already directed you to a quote that proves you wrong in that--Egwene's experience with the broken Access Key in TAR during tSR shows the way impropper use of a ter'angreal can pull upon too much power within yourself and burn your out. An external source can strain your ability to the point that it burns you out. That is much the same as what occured to the three Aes Sedai--Rand's crushing their weave stressed their ability too far.

 

And for clarity, an object such as a ter'angreal would be named 'third party' not 'third person'. But then, if you wish to argue the semantics, a person instead of a object could also be named 'third part'. The argument holds no merit.

 

and here i'm going to ask you again to quote in the book where it says or suggests one can be burnt out by any other means than drawlign in too much of the power.  by all accounts we are told that is exactly what leads to the result of being burnt out. quote one example from teh books that says "so and so was burnt out" that wasn't a case of self-infliction. the three AS and Cyndane arent examples of this.  theres no clear cut point that Cyndane was either stilled or burnt out as we're not told that she was, and we are told numerous times by the three AS, the wise ones, other AS and Rand that they were Stilled.

 

Alright. Martine Janata. Burned out by a ter'angreal. The three Aes Sedai who tested the Accepted rings. Burned out by a ter'angreal.

 

Beyond that, I've addressed both why Cyndane has been burned out, and why the three Aes Sedai have been burned out--including direct comments reguarding why your point about the phrasing of those around them is wrong. You've given me directive, now I'd like to give you one. Respond to those comments.

 

And your thoughts about what we have already stated about that reality are...?

 

that being burnt out is one caused by self-infliction and being stilled is the result of a third parties doing.  i can't say it any more clear cut than that.

 

Thats not your thoughts on our comments, thats your thoughts. We've addressed them direct, please respond in kind. Why, precisely, do you maintain that despite our comments on why it is not realistic? With specific reference to our actual points, if you don't mind.

 

Nynaeve has never tried to heal a person who has been stilled with Saidin, only with Siadar.  by all accounts of what were told, the two are polar opposites.  where as Saidin in a raging sea trying to ripe control out of your hands and you have to force it to surrender to you, Saidar is a peaceful river whom you have to surrender to.  even the weaves used in Saidin are a rougher version than those used for the same thing with Saidar.  take Flinns seperating the wounds on Rand's side for instance.  an AS inspects them and says something to the effect of them being more jagged or rough or such.

 

the same could be suggested for a male stilling a female.  instead of a clean slice like is used for stilling someone with siadar, maybe a crushing blow is used for stilling with Saidin.  in all accounts, to me, it fits with how Saidin is described.  LTT descirbed in detail to Rand how he could and would still each one of those AS.  there for Rand had the knowledge to do so.  seeing as he used a fist of spirit (spirit being the element needed to sever a channelers ability), and the fit of rage and need to get out, it makes sense that Rand did in fact still them.

 

I addressed this too. We have the description of male shielding, and it directly matches female shielding. The extension that allows severing is an extension in fact--an addition to the shielding weave, ergo we know that the male form of stilling matches the female--a knife-like weave.

 

Furthermore what you are suggesting would require that in order for men to have stilled women in the age of legends those women would have had to have willingly created a weave for the men to crush--and that seems unlikely to the point of absurdity, especially when added to the fact that they name it 'severing'.

 

Indeed, thats an additional point that i would have you address--you seek to make a big deal of the fact that people phrase it 'stilling' and 'burning out' depending on whether its done to you or you do it to yourself--aside from the proven inaccuracies of that, how do you sustain it in the face of the fact that in the Age of Legends there was no such distinction, proving the reality can be blurier.

 

Hell, if you wish it named stilling, name it so--but don't deny that the degree of damage that Sashelle, Irgain or Ronaille recieved from their 'stilling' equals that recieved from being burned out. It was done to them by Rand, but the effect was nonetheless of them being 'burned out'. Call it stilling because of the source, but the effects are nonetheless the effects.

 

like i stated above "by all accounts of what were told, the two are polar opposites.  where as Saidin in a raging sea trying to ripe control out of your hands and you have to force it to surrender to you, Saidar is a peaceful river whom you have to surrender to.  even the weaves used in Saidin are a rougher version than those used for the same thing with Saidar."  there for its safe to assume that being stilled by Saidin would be rougher and more harsh and jagged than by Saidar.

 

And, again, i had already addressed that in an earlier comment, which is why i asked why. But addrss MY above comment now, as i ask again... why?

 

Except we witness shielding which is exactly similar in circumstance. Thus, as the weaves are directly stated as being extensions of each other its unlikely. Furthermore its doubtful women form weaves for men to 'crush' when they need to be stilled.

 

the highlited portion in red of your statement is somewhat confusing to me.  so can you please clarify it in your next response.  i think your addressing the sheild that the AS formed to hold Rand.  if i'm wrong then i'm sorry.  if this is the case, the reason by Rand was crushing them is because he wasn't attampting to still them directly, he was trying to get out.  as i've said in a pervious post, it's and indirect result of him battering through their shield.  also, you have to take into account Rand's mindset at the time; he was frantic and mad with the need to get out before they realized the sheild was weakened and replace the "knots" he had already untangled.  so he used what ever he had in his mind to get out, he had the knowledge of stilling people in his head from LTT, but at this point in time because he's so frantic he's not thinking clearly.  panic had overtaken him, and as we know from many examples IRL more often than not we don't follow the most clear way of doing something when we are paniced.  if your panicing and trapped in a burnign buuilding, instead of thinking calmly and rationally and fnding a way down, you see and open window and jump out because it's an immediate escape and your panicing.

 

I was indeed refering to that. And everything you suggest is accurate--except that he was actively trying to still them as a part of his animal response to escape.

 

Again though, the point of that comment was this--if such a reality is possible--if, as you suggest, Rand was drawing on LTT's knowledge in order to still those Aes Sedai, however unconciously, then that means that the male method of stilling would require that women create a web for them to crush--and that quite frankly seems absurd.

 

they weren't using that ter'angrael to drawl in more power and by all acounts in the book, the only instances we've heard of someone being burnt out by a ter'angrael is when their using it to draw in more of the power.

 

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that--its entirely incorrect, and im not sure how to proceed in disgussing that. I suppose, firstly i should point out that we have never seen or heard of a channeler being burned out using a ter'angreal that 'drew in more power'. The only ter'angreal we know of that 'draw in more of the power' are the Access Keys and they don't actually do that, they merely provide access to the sa'angreal that allows the channeler to draw more power, and create buffering for that channeler.

 

Beyond that though, your comment of that we've only seen people using ter'angreal to 'draw more of the power' seems utterly inaccurate. The only ter'angreal we know (as readers) to sever a channeler is the archways used in the testing for Acceptance, and they don't 'draw more of the power'. They are powered by the weaves of sisters.

 

Frankly im not even sure what you mean by that. All ter'angreal require the power to work--some are completely empowered by the weaves of the person who is using it, some draw power for themselves. Of your comment about ter'angreal that 'draw more of the power' the doorstones fit--they do draw 'more of the power' in their function... more, because the people using it draw none.

 

But finally, and most significantly, by every stated comment in the series--and there are ALOT of them--the only requirement for a ter'angreal to burn someone out is for it to be misused or over-strained. Both comments fit this.

 

Yes, i think you very much need to back up that comment.

 

i agree that it would weaken him even more and is not his MO to do so after reading the post by Mr. Ares.  but as i also argued, i still don't see the need to bring in a BA member to heal her when the "healing" can be done by the DO; if she even had to be healed in the first place and it wasn't a result of a bargin with the snakes

 

I'm sorry, how precisely could the healing be done by the Dark One? Thats a fact you need to prove to sustain your arguement. That you would have written it differently is not an argument--not to be offensive, but how you would have written it is irrelevant. How RJ wrote it is.

 

As it is she needed to be healed... thus the need for a Rebel sister to come and heal her as they are the only ones with the knowledge of how to heal severing. It's pretty clear.

 

And it wasn't a result of a bargain with the snakes (you should note that the Foxes are the ones who grant wishes, but it wasn't them either). They would not have bargained at all with either Moiraine or Lanfear, and that has been elaborated on more than often. You want to know about it, look it up. Safe bet is a search of 'Finn' will turn up heaps.

 

 

 

[Jeff from MI]

WOW, I can't believe how long people are willing to argue with the Great WOT Dynamic Dou (Mr. Errors and Luckers).  Since they obviously have used their massive intellect to deduce the impossible, there is really no need for the rest of you to come up with opposing ideas.  Be warned, if you try it, you will be labeled as ignorant and "childish" by Mr Arers. 

When you look at their theory on Lanfear/Cyndane, it is built on shaky foundations.  They chide the rest of us to produce "evidence,” yet their theories are built on assumption on top of assumption.  For just one instance (since I don't apparently have the time as old man Arror to post):

 

MYTH: One of their lines of "evidence" that Moraine was still/burned out when she went through the door with Lanfear is that her bond to Lan was "Snapped".

Again, sticking with what is known: Lan's bond could only have been snapped by death or severing and Moiraine isn't dead - therefore she is severed. Cyndane's drop in strength is of a character only previously seen in those women Healed by women after severing - so Lanfear was severed.

Two assumptions disquised as evidence for the price of one!!

 

 

FACT: At numerous times in the story, Moraine and Lan discuss how the arrangement for Lan's bond to pass if something happens to her has already been made.  Moraine also threatens to consciously pass the bond without anything negative happening to her.  She says this jokingly, but it is clear she can pass the bond at will.

 

FACT: Just before Moraine tackles Lanfear and they go tumbling through the doorway, Moraine "embraces the source".  Granted, this could mean anything.  But it COULD mean that since she already saw the future in the rings, she was passing Lan's bond while she still could.  She could not do it sooner because Lan would have noticed and known she was up to something.  Knowing that this event had to happen, she could have been hiding it from him until the last possible second to keep him from interfering.

 

THEORY:  Since it is quite possible that Moraine was not stilled, than it stands to reason the neither was Lanfear.  She was also likely killed instantly for violating the rule on using the doorway more than once or else she would have killed Moraine as soon as they found themselves in Finland.  By the way, I have a new theory (at least to me anyway).  I think that Lanfear is the woman that Rand needs to win, not Moraine, since she is the only woman we KNOW died and lived again.

 

NOTE:  That is one of many problems with their theory.  My theories are just that.  Not any better than theirs, but at least I admit it and would not talk down to people who make alternate suggestions with bullcrap suggestions that they have used some sort of logical operator to deduce the mind of RJ.  Mr. Errors is pretty free with what he considers "evidence" sometimes.  This is a work of FICTION.  What will happen is more or less what RJ intended for it to happen no matter what crazy theories get posted or how much "sense" it makes

 

One More because I can't help it!  Some more enlightening "Eveidence" from the Duo!!

They would not have bargained at all with either Moiraine or Lanfear, and that has been elaborated on more than often. You want to know about it, look it up.

  Why would they be treated different?  For breaking the doorway I believe is thie rational.  Dumb and completely unsubstantiated, but hey, it works for them!!

Again..

Which bargain would that be then? We have no evidence she has ever bargained with the Eelfinn. What would she have to give them that they can't take from her? All we know is that she was a prisoner. We have no reason to believe they treat with prisoners, do we?

They are no different than any other visitor to their realms.  Their is a price to leave and a bargain to be struck.  I think Lanfear was killed (because she did die after all) and for all we know Moraine may have voluntarily stayed there waiting to be rescued.  If she saw it in one of her visions as the only way for the light to win, she would have.

 

I know it is far fetched, but what the hell right!  It is possible, and there is no "evidence" to the contrary that I am aware of. Of course that depends on what you accept as "Evidence."

Peace Out.

 

[Mr Ares]

Goodness, Jeff, I didn't realise you were so bitter. Anyway, one of the pieces of "evidence" we have that supports that your theory is wrong is this:

Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

I don't know about you, but I prefer to take the authors words into account for my theories. So, Moiraine was physically apart from Lan, she didn't have the time, he suffered the negative consequences of her death. All this means that the bond was not dissolved, that it passed upon Moiraine's "death". As she didn't actually die, the only thing with the same effects as death for the Warder is....severing. Therefore, the only thing that could have caused what we see in Lan is Moiraine being severed. Therefore, she was severed. I'm not going too fast for you, am I?

 

As for this:

  Why would they be treated different?  For breaking the doorway I believe is thie rational.  Dumb and completely unsubstantiated, but hey, it works for them!!

They are no different than any other visitor to their realms.  Their is a price to leave and a bargain to be struck.  I think Lanfear was killed (because she did die after all) and for all we know Moraine may have voluntarily stayed there waiting to be rescued.  If she saw it in one of her visions as the only way for the light to win, she would have.

Why would they make a bargain? Come on, I really would like to know why the Eelfinn would bargain with them. They have nothing to gain that they cannot take. There is nothing we know of that would force a bargain to be made. And what is so "dumb" about the doorway being broken giving a good reason for the Eelfinn to refuse to bargain? If you owned a shop and someone walked in through the door as usual, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to treat them as you usually treat customers. If, on the other hand, someone were to enter by destroying the door, by destroying the main way into your place of business, meaning any business you get will be through the decidedly shadier backdoor operation, why would you treat these people as normal customers as opposed to criminals?

 

I think that Lanfear is the woman that Rand needs to win, not Moraine, since she is the only woman we KNOW died and lived again.

People came to the conclusion it was Moiraine because Min has only ever had one viewing fail, one about Moiraine, coupled with her thinking that Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone - which everyone believes Moiraine to be.

 

Since it is quite possible that Moraine was not stilled, than it stands to reason the neither was Lanfear.  She was also likely killed instantly for violating the rule on using the doorway more than once or else she would have killed Moraine as soon as they found themselves in Finland.

How do you explain Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear then? When did Lanfear first use the doorway, considering we have no evidence of any use at all besides the incident at the Cairhien docks? How did she even go through, given that Mat found a similar trick impossible in The Shadow Rising? How can she be held if she is killed instantly?

 

Also, I see you got the name Luckers right. Is this because you are frightened about his response if you got it wrong, or because you are too stupid to think of a way to get that name wrong?

[Luckers]

FACT: At numerous times in the story, Moraine and Lan discuss how the arrangement for Lan's bond to pass if something happens to her has already been made.  Moraine also threatens to consciously pass the bond without anything negative happening to her.  She says this jokingly, but it is clear she can pass the bond at will.

 

Indeed, she could do that--if Myrelle were present. Myrelle was not present.

 

FACT: Just before Moraine tackles Lanfear and they go tumbling through the doorway, Moraine "embraces the source".  Granted, this could mean anything.  But it COULD mean that since she already saw the future in the rings, she was passing Lan's bond while she still could.  She could not do it sooner because Lan would have noticed and known she was up to something.  Knowing that this event had to happen, she could have been hiding it from him until the last possible second to keep him from interfering.

 

Actually it couldn't. For one, freely passing the bond does not cause the Death Absortion Effects. Lan experiences that effect. She did not directly pass the bond.

 

 

Quote

They would not have bargained at all with either Moiraine or Lanfear, and that has been elaborated on more than often. You want to know about it, look it up.

 

  Why would they be treated different?  For breaking the doorway I believe is thie rational.  Dumb and completely unsubstantiated, but hey, it works for them!!

 

My instruction to 'look it up' stands... and is not meant to be harsh. This topic has been disgussed at great length, if you wish to understand it my friend all you need to do is a search.

 

The short of it though, is that Moiraine and Lanfear arrived in a method the destroyed a valued source of trade. Their entrance very likely caused a fire (the fire Rand witnesses begins within the ter'angreal) a cause of light. Lanfear is the closest thing to Shadow-made-flesh availliable, something we know the finns dislike.

 

From that basis we know the finns would likely not offer their services--they arn't magically bound to do so, and even if they were willing to hold to the Agreement when the doorway was destroyed, which i doubt, they wouldn't in the face of the rest.

 

But beyond empty speculation, we know as a fact that they were both held prisoner. Thus they were treated differently and negatively. As such we know they weren't offered wishes. End of game.

 

You want a more detailed discussion of this topic, look it up.

 

 

 

And bud, play nice.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff from MI]

Ok, first of all, the reason for the "Bitternes" is that I find the constant caustic and degrading nature of Mr. Ares language with everyone who dares disagree with him somewhat juvinile and annoying.  It is possible to disagree with someone and not be nasty you know.

 

Exhibit A:

Therefore, the only thing that could have caused what we see in Lan is Moiraine being severed. Therefore, she was severed. I'm not going too fast for you, am I?

Really, is this kind of language really necessary?  Does it make you feel superior or something?

 

Exhibit B:

Also, I see you got the name Luckers right. Is this because you are frightened about his response if you got it wrong, or because you are too stupid to think of a way to get that name wrong?

Yes... that is it.  I am too scared and stupid to spell "Luckers" wrong.  Another fine example of your deductive reasoning powers.  Would you feel better if I spelled Luckers wrong too?

 

Ares' attitude aside...

 

Luckers, you replied

Indeed, she could do that--if Myrelle were present. Myrelle was not present.

The way I remember reading it, Moraine had already done all that was necessary with Myrelle and all she had to do was "pull the trigger" so to speak.  If that is the case, then that could have been why Moraine "embraced the source" as she tackled Lanfear.  Why do you think that Myrelle would have to be present.

 

Also you state:

Actually it couldn't. For one, freely passing the bond does not cause the Death Absortion Effects. Lan experiences that effect. She did not directly pass the bond.

I disagree.  Lan did not go into a beserker-type uncontrollable rage as is often discussed and illustrated on at least one occasion that I can recall.  His behaivior is more in line with someone who thinks he just lost a long-time companion.  Lan had always told Moraine that she would "long outlive me".  I'm sure he would have viewed her apparent death as a failure to protect her as he swore to do.  Lan's character does not strike me as the type to take that well.

 

Mr. Ares, you wrote:

Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

This is refering to releasing a Warder, not passing a bond.  Apples and Oranges good man...

 

You go on..

Why would they make a bargain? Come on, I really would like to know why the Eelfinn would bargain with them. They have nothing to gain that they cannot take. There is nothing we know of that would force a bargain to be made. And what is so "dumb" about the doorway being broken giving a good reason for the Eelfinn to refuse to bargain? If you owned a shop and someone walked in through the door as usual, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to treat them as you usually treat customers. If, on the other hand, someone were to enter by destroying the door, by destroying the main way into your place of business, meaning any business you get will be through the decidedly shadier backdoor operation, why would you treat these people as normal customers as opposed to criminals?

We know next to nothing of the Finns, the deal that was set with them in times past, or what their true motivations are.  In my humble opinion, all of this is just slight-of-hand jibberish to try to support your ideas.

 

People came to the conclusion it was Moiraine because Min has only ever had one viewing fail, one about Moiraine, coupled with her thinking that Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone - which everyone believes Moiraine to be.

Point taken...

 

Finally...

How do you explain Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear then? When did Lanfear first use the doorway, considering we have no evidence of any use at all besides the incident at the Cairhien docks? How did she even go through, given that Mat found a similar trick impossible in The Shadow Rising? How can she be held if she is killed instantly?

1. Cydane being weaker.  Long drawn out crazy theory that I don't have time for because the hockey game is on soon.

2.She did not go through.  The door opened for Moraine and she was pulled/pushed through by Moraine, killing Lanfear and the door caught fire and melted. (My crazy, absolutely unprovable theory)

3. The answer to her being held is related the the strength difference. See #1.

 

The biggest question you need to ask yourself is "What plot line would be furthered by my crazy theory?"

 

Wings are on... Gotta go!

 

[Lord Nik]

Except your not arguing, you are stating as fact. The mode of your comments don't allow any room for interpretation--you state what you think to be the case as the case. Surely you can't be shocked that your unilateral comments about what is the case, which are based only on your own opinion,

Im just joiging on this debate and when you put something foreward in a debate u try to make put it up with as few holes in the argument as possible. And going over your points you put it as fact as well. Going back to your "hypocrit" speech comes to mind.

and rand stilled those AS holding him when he broke out.. and i hope i have the jist of this debate right :P

[Mr Ares]

Ok, first of all, the reason for the "Bitternes" is that I find the constant caustic and degrading nature of Mr. Ares language with everyone who dares disagree with him somewhat juvinile and annoying.  It is possible to disagree with someone and not be nasty you know.

It's not with people who "dare" disagree with me. People are more than capable of disagreeing with me and I with them in a perfectly polite fashion. I don't like people who refuse to see reason, who refuse to accept facts, oh, and people who still fail to get my name right. Is it really that hard? Also, considering your own track record with politeness, especially with those that disagree with you, I would like to point out that people in glass houses are generally advised not to throw stones.

 

Exhibit A:

Therefore, the only thing that could have caused what we see in Lan is Moiraine being severed. Therefore, she was severed. I'm not going too fast for you, am I?

Really, is this kind of language really necessary?  Does it make you feel superior or something?

How many times do I have to make that same point before it sinks in with some people. If I have to say somethingrepeatedly, then I do tend to question the ability of the person failing to understand to comprehend a fairly simple sentence or two.

Exhibit B:

Also, I see you got the name Luckers right. Is this because you are frightened about his response if you got it wrong, or because you are too stupid to think of a way to get that name wrong?

Yes... that is it.  I am too scared and stupid to spell "Luckers" wrong.  Another fine example of your deductive reasoning powers.  Would you feel better if I spelled Luckers wrong too?

Actually, I would prefer it if you learned what my name was, you still appear to be struggling. But that was a joke about you only getting my name wrong - why just me and not Luckers as well?

 

Ares' attitude aside...

 

Luckers, you replied

Indeed, she could do that--if Myrelle were present. Myrelle was not present.

The way I remember reading it, Moraine had already done all that was necessary with Myrelle and all she had to do was "pull the trigger" so to speak.  If that is the case, then that could have been why Moraine "embraced the source" as she tackled Lanfear.  Why do you think that Myrelle would have to be present.

Moiraine would have to "pull the trigger" by dying, or severing herself, unless she was to pass the bond without causing the death absorbtion effect she would have to have Myrelle present. It is for this reason that Myrelle doesn't just pass Lan's bond to Nynaeve - she needs her present.

 

Also you state:

Actually it couldn't. For one, freely passing the bond does not cause the Death Absortion Effects. Lan experiences that effect. She did not directly pass the bond.

I disagree.  Lan did not go into a beserker-type uncontrollable rage as is often discussed and illustrated on at least one occasion that I can recall.  His behaivior is more in line with someone who thinks he just lost a long-time companion.  Lan had always told Moraine that she would "long outlive me".  I'm sure he would have viewed her apparent death as a failure to protect her as he swore to do.  Lan's character does not strike me as the type to take that well.

Yet when Nynaeve meets him in ACoS, she Delves him and discovers something wrong. Something aside from all the wounds Lan has taken. We know there are physical consequences associated with the snapping of the bond, and we see physical consequences in Lan. 2+2=4.

 

Mr. Ares, you wrote:

Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

This is refering to releasing a Warder, not passing a bond.  Apples and Oranges good man...

Apples and oranges? Considering both cover the release of a Warder from a bond to a particular Sister, said release coming in such a way as to prevent the negative consequences usually associated with the forcible snapping of the bond, I would say that oranges and satsumas might be a better analogy, or oranges and mandarins...satsumas and kumquats...lemons and limes...I suddenly fancy an orange. And still you persist with the mispunctuation of my name.....

You go on..

Why would they make a bargain? Come on, I really would like to know why the Eelfinn would bargain with them. They have nothing to gain that they cannot take. There is nothing we know of that would force a bargain to be made. And what is so "dumb" about the doorway being broken giving a good reason for the Eelfinn to refuse to bargain? If you owned a shop and someone walked in through the door as usual, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to treat them as you usually treat customers. If, on the other hand, someone were to enter by destroying the door, by destroying the main way into your place of business, meaning any business you get will be through the decidedly shadier backdoor operation, why would you treat these people as normal customers as opposed to criminals?

We know next to nothing of the Finns, the deal that was set with them in times past, or what their true motivations are.  In my humble opinion, all of this is just slight-of-hand jibberish to try to support your ideas.

Gibberish? You still fail to explain why it is "dumb" for the Eelfinn to refuse to bargain. Further, we know that there are requirements that must be met in order to trade. No fire, for one...didn't that doorway produce a bit of fire?

 

Finally...

How do you explain Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear then? When did Lanfear first use the doorway, considering we have no evidence of any use at all besides the incident at the Cairhien docks? How did she even go through, given that Mat found a similar trick impossible in The Shadow Rising? How can she be held if she is killed instantly?

1. Cydane being weaker.  Long drawn out crazy theory that I don't have time for because the hockey game is on soon.

2.She did not go through.  The door opened for Moraine and she was pulled/pushed through by Moraine, killing Lanfear and the door caught fire and melted. (My crazy, absolutely unprovable theory)

3. The answer to her being held is related the the strength difference. See #1.

 

The biggest question you need to ask yourself is "What plot line would be furthered by my crazy theory?"

 

Wings are on... Gotta go!

As for your crazy, absolutely disprovable theory, she did go through though. She was held, her own POV states it. And we didn't see her body on our side, so it certainly went through. And I have no idea what plotline would be furthered by your theory of Lanfear not going through the Doorway and being held even though her own POV states that she was held and so must have gone through.

[Lord Nik]

Exibit C

then I do tend to question the ability of the person failing to understand to comprehend a fairly simple sentence or two.

Really, is this kind of language really necessary?  Does it make you feel superior or something?

 

[Morredin]

I grew up with this series. Have read and re-read the whole series 4 times and just recently finished listening to the series for a 3rd time on Audible. I have finally paid close enough attention to this Cyndane/Lanfear problem to provide an answer, I believe. Neither Moiraine nor Lanfear were stilled or killed when they fell through the doorway ter'angreal. It was explained by Moiraine herself, near the end of book 13, that Moridin actually met her in Finnland not long after they fell in. She said he said something along the lines that she was not who he was there to retrieve. The Finns fed upon Moiraines power all the time she was captive. This explains her severe reduction in power. Lanfear was "retrieved"(killed) by Moriden rather quickly after her capture. Freeing up her soul for the DO to transmigrate. The Finns did feed upon Lanfear as well, but only briefly. Thus, she is still quite powerful. 

 

It is not explained how Moriden entered Finnland. Only that he did indeed enter and killed Lanfear himself.

 

To answer a handful of questions or theories I have seen so far in this thread, Lan ASSUMED Moiraine was dead because he couldn't feel her bond anymore. This could be explained by the fact that she was now in an entirely different realm AND the path to reach that realm was destroyed. Not hard to imagine feeling entirely cut off from her as tho she were dead.

 

The Eelfinn DID grant Moiraine a few wishes. DESPITE the fact that her actions resulted in the destruction of their route for trade. They granted her a powerful Angreal. One nearly strong enough to be considered a Sa'Angreal. They did this partially due to the bargain agreement and also because it made feeding upon her power that much more potent for them. They also granted her 2 more boons, but she doesn't state what those were to Mat.

 

I'm certain there will be disagreements with my answers here, but if proof of what I'm saying here is needed all you need do is read or listen to the conversation Moiraine has with Mat and Thom right after she is freed from the Tower of Genji. It strongly implies why Cyndane is now slightly weaker than she was as Lanfear. If they were feeding on Moiraine all that time then why would they not feed on Lanfear's power just the same while they had her captive?

 

Mat entered the Tower of Genji with fire, music, and iron btw and the Foxes did still "bargain" with him. They obviously weren't happy about it, but followed the bargain to the letter. If not in spirit.

 

To explain how we know Moiraine was NOT severed: she can still channel immediately after being freed from the Finns without being healed by someone 1st. She offers to help ease the pain of Mats eye socket, but he refuses

Edited January 24, 2023 by Morredin

[SinisterDeath]

This topic was 14 years old, and there was no reason to revive it from the Pitts of Dhoom.