The "Lanfear to Cyndane" problem

[Tigara]

I'm not sure if anyone has decided on this, but I think I figured out why there is a power difference between Lanfear and Cyndane.

 

My theory is that Lanfear was stilled before she died, so she had to be placed in the body of a weaker channeler to be able to channel again. It would explain why Cyndane is much weaker in the OP than Lanfear.

[42Bonzo88]

    I was wondering the same thing. My opinion was that because Lanfear had the hots for LTT and then Rand that her devotion to the DO was questioned. It was by Ishy in TDR, and right before she and Moiraine exited, she was going mad because she found out about Rand and Avi. I thought it was the DO punishing her because she was not devoted. I think it is told that Lanfear was drawn to the dark for power. Well, what better way to punish than to take away her power.

[Andrew the Great]

The general consensus so far has been that Lanfear was stilled in Finland then healed by a woman. That would explain the power reduction.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Oh my god, we have been over this issue several times on this site.  Many argue that being placed in the body of a weaker channeler or even a non-channeler would be irrelivant b/c the ability to channel lies not in the body but in the soul.  Evidence sited for this includes the fact that The Dragon is always born as a powerfull channeler and the fact that neither Moridin, nor Osan'gar nor Aran'gar ever complained of a reduction in power nor did they ever brag of an increase.  Furthermore, Bathamel/Aran'gar continues to channel saidin dispite being placed in a woman's body.  If channeling were dependent on the body then Aran'gar's body should be hardwired to channel saidar and not saiden.

 

On the flip side a key difference with the Lanfear/Cyndane transmigration is that her's is a female soul while Ishameal/Moriden, Aginor/Osan'gar and Bathamel/Aran'gar were all male souls.  It could very well be, as with many things in WOT, that transmigration is just differnt for women than it is for men.  It could be that a female soul's ability to channel is more dependent on the body in which it resides and is a male soul.

 

Personally, I like the severed and then healed by a woman theory but that of course leads to the question of what woman was capable and willing to perform that service?

[bronnt]

That's the big issue with the "severed and healed by a woman" theory.  A lot of people cite Moghedien, but she's never shown any competancy or desire with healing, and whether or not she ever saw the weave is uncertain.  Perhaps she just picked it through the a'dam link.  I'm not sure.

 

But there's another problem, and I'm pretty sure there's a quote from RJ out there that seems to contradict this theory.  I think he suggest that severing a body from the OP wouldn't prevent the soul from channeling when it's reborn.

 

I think, despite the apparent problems with the severed and healed theory, is that it's just the most plausible we have right now.  There's not enough information to form a solid theory about anything else.

 

I still want to suspect the Finns for having done something just on the basis of the quote where Cyndane realizes that Alivia is stronger than she was "before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her" during WH.  But there's really nothing to indicate the Finns as capable of affecting her channeling.  RJ has described some of the limits the Finns have, and there really isn't anything else pointing to them.

[Tigara]

No one could have Healed her. Nynaeve was the first to discover it, so I doubt anyone else can Heal severing.

 

If she was stilled, would she not be able regain the power to channel if placed in a new body?

[Luckers]

It's actually quite a simple answer to who healed her--a Black Rebel Yellow Sister. Whew, theres a job title for you. But seriously, Nynaeve spent the week after she healed Logain, Siuan and Leane being passed from one Yellow sister to another teaching them the method. One of them was bound to be Black. Beyond that all it would take is a dream message to Aran'gar, and a command given to a Black Yellow, that woman travels to Shayol Goul and heals Cyndane and travels back--it would take less than an hour, and we know that after Egwene reveals Travelling there are at least 20 sisters missing from the camp at any one time, with no one asking where they went due to the custom about privacy.

 

But there's another problem, and I'm pretty sure there's a quote from RJ out there that seems to contradict this theory.  I think he suggest that severing a body from the OP wouldn't prevent the soul from channeling when it's reborn.

 

We arn't talking about Rebirth here, we're talking about transmigration and we know that the channeling state remains constant accross the transmigratory barrier--from Aran'gar still channeling saidin to all three still retaining exactly the same strength.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Oh my god, we have been over this issue several times on this site.  Many argue that being placed in the body of a weaker channeler or even a non-channeler would be irrelivant b/c the ability to channel lies not in the body but in the soul

UNQUOTE

 

RJ said the ability to channel comes from body AND soul. If you have the ability from both you are very strong. Remember when it was said that Aes Sedai are culling the ability to channel out of mankind? Well I saw this as the side linked to the body. To be rid of the soouls ability to channel people would have to stop being reborn. (not that every channeller can channel in his next life, but it is possible)

[Luckers]

RJ said the ability to channel comes from body AND soul. If you have the ability from both you are very strong. Remember when it was said that Aes Sedai are culling the ability to channel out of mankind? Well I saw this as the side linked to the body. To be rid of the soouls ability to channel people would have to stop being reborn. (not that every channeller can channel in his next life, but it is possible)

 

Firstly, just pointing out so that it doesn't get raised in this, but whatever influence the body has on the manifestation and strength of the ability to channel in normal situations, it clearly does not have the same effect on channelers being transmigrated.

 

Secondly the belief that Aes Sedai are culling the ability is flawed, the majority of channelers--female and male (roughly around 96% for female, and its unknown for male, though it would be higher)--remain in the normal gene pool. Far more likely is that the decline is due to a lack of interbreeding between male and female channelers.

 

The rest i agree with completely.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Firstly, just pointing out so that it doesn't get raised in this, but whatever influence the body has on the manifestation and strength of the ability to channel in normal situations, it clearly does not have the same effect on channelers being transmigrated

UNQUOTE

 

What??? If Lanfears body had the ability to channel, but Cyndanes doesnt, then of course she will be weaker. If you were a body builder and then switched to the body of a little girl you wouldnt still have the bodybuilder strength. If your original body has eyes but you were switched to another body that had none, would you retain your eyesight? No. If your original body hasnt got the channeller gene, then of course it will have the same effect on your strength, transmigration or not. Of course this may not be the situation with Cyndane but there is no evidence to back up what you said Luckers so it isnt that clear at all.

[Luckers]

What??? If Lanfears body had the ability to channel, but Cyndanes doesnt, then of course she will be weaker. If you were a body builder and then switched to the body of a little girl you wouldnt still have the bodybuilder strength. If your original body has eyes but you were switched to another body that had none, would you retain your eyesight? No. If your original body hasnt got the channeller gene, then of course it will have the same effect on your strength, transmigration or not. Of course this may not be the situation with Cyndane but there is no evidence to back up what you said Luckers so it isnt that clear at all.

 

Actually there is. Moridin, Osen'gar and Aran'gar all retain precisely the same strength, and Aran'gar still channels saidin. Whatever effect the body had on strength and the ability to channel in normal cases, it does not have that effect in cases of transmigration. This is fact--in transmigration, the body irrespective of its original state bends to the nature of the soul. Aside from the above, Shaidar Haren states it.

 

Now, it may be possible that the new body needs to have the genetic traits that allow channeling--we don't know, though RJ stated that there were a couple of requirements beyond simple good health, and that seems as likely as anything else--but even if that is the case, it has no effect on strength.

 

And your analogies are false--all deal with a function that is purely physical.

[Guest Dreadlord]

RJ said the ability to channel doesnt just come from the soul. And what Shaidar said merely means that Aran'gar would eventually think like a woman. If what he said applied to channeling, then Aran'gar would be channeling Saidar by now.

 

And I seem to remember one of the Forsaken (Demandred?) thinking to himself that there was a lack of bodies with the channeling ability to be used by the Shadow. Hence the Myrdraal trying to capture Aes Sedai. Im positive it WASNT just to make the black swords because a child was used for making one.

[Luckers]

RJ said the ability to channel doesnt just come from the soul.

 

I'm well aware of that, yet again whatever effect a bodies genetic predisposition has normally on the manifestation and strength of a channeler, this does not hold true for transmigration cases. That is a fact.

 

And what Shaidar said merely means that Aran'gar would eventually think like a woman. If what he said applied to channeling, then Aran'gar would be channeling Saidar by now

 

Shaidar Haren said the body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body. Aran'gar thinking like a women is only the second part--and in what way would his comment applying to channeling mean Aran'gar would channel saidar--he states the body bends to the soul, and that is PRECISELY what we see with this, Aran'gar's female body bending to the male oriented soul.

 

Beyond which i stated that as a mere curiosity, it is made a proven fact by the realities of Osen'gar, Aran'gar and Moridin. Whatever influence the bodies genetic traits have normally do not influence transmigrated souls--at least not in terms of strength.

 

And I seem to remember one of the Forsaken (Demandred?) thinking to himself that there was a lack of bodies with the channeling ability to be used by the Shadow. Hence the Myrdraal trying to capture Aes Sedai. Im positive it WASNT just to make the black swords because a child was used for making one.

 

Firstly, Demandred thinks nothing of the sort. He thinks that there is a simple lack of captives altogether because the raids on the borderlands had been stopped, and it was just about the making of the swords--he thinks wryly to himself that the Myrdraal must be gnashing their teeth. There was nothing about channeling.

 

Secondly, once again it is entirely possible that a body must have the genetic predisposition to channel in order to house a transmigrated soul--there's no evidence to suggest it, but it makes a degree of sense, and RJ did say there were requirements beyond simple good health--but even if that is the case, it has no impact on strength.

[aevogt]

So based on the text, it semms fairly evident that the ability to channel is genetic, while what a channeler channels is based on the soul inhabiting the body.

 

That is why "suitable" body is necessary.  The bodies Halima, Dashiva, Cyndane and Moridin currently occupy were likely Sparkers or Learners that were captured and taken to SG.  Their souls were stripped out and replaced with one of the dead Chosen.

 

Like an Edgar suit.

 

[Luckers]

Perhaps. I think there is more at play with how genetics and the soul interact then we know, but of what we do know, your comment seems apt.

 

We can even suggestively link one of them to a channeler. Cyndane's new body almost exactly matches that of Cabriana Meccandes, an Aes Sedai captured for Semirhage around the time of Cyndane's return.

[grump]

When she meets aliva on the hill she thinks she is as strong as I was before the finns held me captive. Since I am a simple soul, I tend to think her loss was part of the price she paid to buy her release from their tender care. Moriane has to wait for mat to break her out cause she doesn't have the DO to put in a word for her

 

But as I said, I am a simple soul and don't understand all the complexities as well as the rest of you.

[Leopoled Boothe]

When she meets aliva on the hill she thinks she is as strong as I was before the finns held me captive. Since I am a simple soul, I tend to think her loss was part of the price she paid to buy her release from their tender care. Moriane has to wait for mat to break her out cause she doesn't have the DO to put in a word for her

 

But as I said, I am a simple soul and don't understand all the complexities as well as the rest of you.

 

I don't think having the DO put in a word for her would have done Lanfear much good.  Remember they warn against mentioning anything to do with The Shadow when visiting the Finns, so I don't think the Finns are exactly down with the DO.  Have the DO put in a word for her would be worse than useless.

[aevogt]

It's the damn missing puzzle pieces.

 

How did she die?  We don't know

 

Since it's evident that she was held by the Finns, the Shadow must not have the resources to free or kill her.

 

If she was stilled, as has been surmised, isn't it logical she may have killed herself to escape captivity?

 

That begs the question over whether she knew she could be returned.

 

That would lend some explanation to the new name she was given.

[Luckers]

That begs the question over whether she knew she could be returned.

 

Lan mentions it in the Eye of the World, and the generic title 'Lord of the Grave' suggests that is was fairly common knowledge. If joe avreage Third Ager knew it, I'm guessing the Chosen did.

[Majsju]

Considering what Lanfear had been up to, she could not have been very sure the DO actually would recycle her though.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Since it's evident that she was held by the Finns, the Shadow must not have the resources to free or kill her.

 

Or it could be that they didn't know where she was.  It could also be that they lacked the desire to free her.  The Forsaken don't exactlly like each other and I can't think of a single time when one Forsaken came dashing to rescue another.  I think their reaction would more likely be "Good riddence, that's less compitition for Ne'blis."

[aevogt]

Yeah but if I'm Demandred, I see the slightest sign of weakness, Captive and severed, I'd want her dead simply because now it's more feasable now as opposed to when she is at full strength.

Guilding the Lily?  Perhaps but it at least clears the playing field a bit for the rest

[grump]

I keep remembering that Mat went through the same doorway, and neglected to set a price for what he got. So the finns set one for him. I would think Lanfear was old  enough to know how things worked on the other side of the door and wanted to get out badly enough to pay the price of a portion of her power, but the finns may have sent her out the same way they did Mat and the DO took it from there. As he then stuck her in moridins power in a different body just shows how PO'd was the DO about the whole matter.

 

Anyway as I said before I prefer the simple to the complex, but that's just me

[Luckers]

It seems unlikely to me that the Finns played any roll. There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

[Lille]

The main argument i find thats against Lanfear/Cyndane being healed by a woman is that Siuan was one of the strongest Aes Sedai before she was stilled, bested only by Moiraine and Cadsuane i believe (maybe Elaida too). And when shes healed she is like what? Bottom 10 or something. And Cyndane is stronger then Moghedien and about the same strenght as Graendal. While Suian is going from top 3 among the Aes Sedai to the bottom 10, Lanfear goes from (probably) No.1 she is still among the top 10 of female channelers.