The Last Battle

[Tuon Rocks 123]

This post is all about how you think the last battle is going to happen. Who will die, when will it be, how it will happen, who knows, maybe it will just be a mind battle between Rand and the DO, but I doubt that. So anyway, just post your opinions, and if you  want, I will try to personally reply, but I'm not making any guarantees

[aussie_ashaman123]

I would find it hilarious if the Last Battle between rand and the DO turns out to be Rock, Paper, Scissors

[Tuon Rocks 123]

Again, thanks for being the first person to reply, that would  be pretty funny. Check out my Other posts. you might like them if you liked these two

 

[manicompulsive]

All I Know is it better happen at about the 250 page mark. This story needs one hell of an epilogue. It just has to!

[aussie_ashaman123]

first thing they need to do is get the Horn of Valere to Illianthen get mat there as well. When the orn is in mats hands, the first strokes of TG will truly begin i think

[RAND AL THOR]

The blight is likely to burst with trollocs/myrdraal. Practically every man who can hold a sword will be at the borderlands. While the men fight shadowspawn, the important people like Egwene, Cadsuane, Nynaeve and other powerful channelers may be duelling with the remaining forsaken.

 

Rand will likely travel to the Bore as LTT did. If he fought his way to the Bore, then it would already look like he is winning and I dont think there is much suspense in that. So most likely he will Travel.

 

I had an interesting (or insane) idea the other night:

Why dont all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man stand in a line along the blight when TG begins and open up a series of gateways, all leading to the bottom of the ocean? Water from the seas would flood the blight effectively killing quite a number of shadowspawn. THere might be a problem getting rid of the water afterwards though. ;D

 

Why Illian ,aussie ashaman? Thats as far from the blight as you can get. ???

[Saidar]

The blight is likely to burst with trollocs/myrdraal. Practically every man who can hold a sword will be at the borderlands. While the men fight shadowspawn, the important people like Egwene, Cadsuane, Nynaeve and other powerful channelers may be duelling with the remaining forsaken.

 

Rand will likely travel to the Bore as LTT did. If he fought his way to the Bore, then it would already look like he is winning and I dont think there is much suspense in that. So most likely he will Travel.

 

I had an interesting (or insane) idea the other night:

Why dont all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man stand in a line along the blight when TG begins and open up a series of gateways, all leading to the bottom of the ocean? Water from the seas would flood the blight effectively killing quite a number of shadowspawn. THere might be a problem getting rid of the water afterwards though. ;D

 

Why Illian ,aussie ashaman? Thats as far from the blight as you can get. ???

 

Because the army to fight the Last Battle is to gather there. And why not make Deathgates? Would be easier and there is no water problem...

Also why don't just make huge circles with Aes Sedia and Asha'man? They can kill all the Forsaken who are left without breaking a sweat.

Or you could let all AS and AM stand in line and let them make two huge lines of air. One where the knees are and one where the head is --> DF and shadowspawn rush forward and they all get killed before the get close :p

[aevogt]

I’ve been thinking about starting a new thread for this but as long as this one is new here you are.

 

I see it shaping up to be one mother of a running ambush.

 

I’m seeing a pattern develop in the last book

 

We have a massive hammer to the west.

Rand has sent all the Aiel and half the BT under Logain to Arad Doman to wait for orders. 

 

Lan is clearing the borderlands of pretty much everything the four rulers left behind.  In two months time, he’ll have a large, determined force in Sheinar

 

It seems to me that this will practically leave a shining beacon for the Half men mustering the Trollocs in the Blight.  Forget Tarwin’s Gap, you can slice through a practically undefended Arafel and be in Tar Valon in a week. 

 

Let them come south at speed, offering very little, or no, resistance.  This is sure to make them overconfident.  Added to that, the clans will begin to string themselves out as faster moving parties out distance their fellows to the rear. 

 

Secretly gateway the entire borderland army and Elayne’s forces in Camelyn, and the Band of the Red Hand maybe a half days march south of the Island.  That’ll maximize the defensive strength; the tower guard (20,000), the rebel army under GB (50,000) the Band (30,000? Is that right?) the borderlander army themselves (200,000) under Agelmar Jagad and what remains of the seanchan force that was ordered to stand down after their failed attack on the tower. 

 

It seems to me that it’ll make a nice anvil, an anvil commanded by two of the remaining four great captains, supported by, between Egwene’s people and what’s left of the Suldam and  Damane, several thousand channelers, some of great strength and others available to form circles.

 

The Trolloc hordes sweep south, burning Arafel and leaving little in their wake.  It’s hard on the Arafellen but war’s war.  They slam into the defenses at Tar Valon and are stopped cold by the brilliant tactics of Gareth Bryne, Aglemar’s knowledge of fighting in the Blight and Mat’s new methods involving gunpowder. 

 

Since any of the trolloc bands sent through the Ways die shortly after they emerge, victims of the booby-trapped waygates, they are immaterial.

 

While the hordes send attack after attack against the heavily defended Island, the combined hammers of Lan’s borderlanders sweep in from the east and the Aiel and Ash’aman under Logain descend from the West in textbook examples of simultaneous flanking maneuvers cutting off the attacking legions from their reinforcements, whilst crushing everything to the south against the anvil. 

 

Freed from a defensive position on the Island, Egwene orders GB to take every man who can hold a pike and every human who can channel a spark and pursue.  Collecting the other two armies and about 60,000 seriously cheesed off Ogier led by none other than Loial, GB heads north for Shayol Ghul at speed, pursuing and harassing the remaining shadowspawn and dreadlords.

 

At least, that’s how I’d do it.

 

What happens after they wipe the walls with what’s left of the armies of the Shadow is a topic for a different day.  Although I do have a theory about that as well.

 

[42Bonzo88]

LLLOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEEE IIIIIIITTTTTTT AEVOGT!!!!!

[Majsju]

Lan is clearing the borderlands of pretty much everything the four rulers left behind.  In two months time, he’ll have a large, determined force in Sheinar

 

No, he is not. Any soldier that choses to follow Lan commits treason. He will get quite a following, yes, but it will be civilians.

 

It seems to me that this will practically leave a shining beacon for the Half men mustering the Trollocs in the Blight.  Forget Tarwin’s Gap, you can slice through a practically undefended Arafel and be in Tar Valon in a week. 

 

Too bad the Myrdraal is not in charge of the shadows forces. We have seen throught the actions of Moridin and SH that the shadow are starting to work with a greater plan, rather than the individual forsakens whims.

 

Secretly gateway the entire borderland army and Elayne’s forces in Camelyn, and the Band of the Red Hand maybe a half days march south of the Island.  That’ll maximize the defensive strength; the tower guard (20,000), the rebel army under GB (50,000) the Band (30,000? Is that right?) the borderlander army themselves (200,000) under Agelmar Jagad and what remains of the seanchan force that was ordered to stand down after their failed attack on the tower. 

 

That borderland army that hides 13 Aes Sedai that are quite possibly BA?

And while attacking the White Tower would be very high on the shadows agenda, it would be a dire mistake to believe that is the only attack they will launch. There will be three or four major battles going on, so locking up such huge part of the available forces in one place would be a very bad idea.

 

Since any of the trolloc bands sent through the Ways die shortly after they emerge, victims of the booby-trapped waygates, they are immaterial

 

Unfortunatly, as seen in KOD, not all waygates are boobytrapped. Actually, the majority are not.

 

 

[aevogt]

Maj,

 

When we leave Lan in KoD, he hasn't met any of those who will choose to follow him so you really have no idea what his following will turn out to be. Nynaeve targeted Ex-patriot Malkiere for her guit trip,

 

Also, as seen in KoD, Elder Haman has agreed to see that as many Waygates as Ogierly possible are booby trapped, as soon as possible, to the point of ignoring the Stump.  It's a pretty safe bet that where Loial, a young man as Ogier see things, was less than successful, Elder Haman won't be.

 

It brings up another question of how many effective battle leaders does the Shadow actually have at this point?  The remaining Chosen seem to be the ones that governed, but weren't necessarily successful in leading troops during the War of Power.  We know that Ishmael was soundly defeated by LTT at least once at that time and doesn't appear to be eager for a rematch any time soon. 

 

Yes, they have Demandred, but I'd bet his raging inferiority complex will be his undoing.

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

Maj,

 

When we leave Lan in KoD, he hasn't met any of those who will choose to follow him so you really have no idea what his following will turn out to be. Nynaeve targeted Ex-patriot Malkiere for her guit trip

 

There simply aren't that many ex-Malkieri left, I think, to make up a sizable army; and even if he manages to get enough volunteers, his 10-15K would be insignificant in the battle since apart from the few battle-hardened Shienarans, etc, he'll get untrained civilians. Just an entrée for the the Trollocs; that were/are mass produced at quite a high rate, since Moridin didn't really panic when he lost those 100K, just got pissed off that they were ordered without his approval.

 

And why do you think the Dark Forces will attack Tar Valon from the outside? There's an unprotected waygate there - I doubt that Rand included TV in the list he gave to Elder Haman.

Plus, why WT at all? Knowing where Rand's armies are, why not send DF to unprotected areas to wreak havoc?

[Corbett]

An "untrained" civilian in the Borderlands is probably ass good as an veteran in any other army other than the Aiel. Also it is not only the Malikier that will follow the Golden Crane. The Malikier were the most respected and devout in the fight against the shadow. As shown in NS many people will drop what they do just to follow the uncrowned king. In TEotW Anglmar(not sure if that is how you spell it, the Lord of Fal Dara was sure that him raising his banner would have made all the difference in the battle at tarwins gap. With Lan riding through all 4 countries of the Borderlands he will gather a huge following.

[Majsju]

When we leave Lan in KoD, he hasn't met any of those who will choose to follow him so you really have no idea what his following will turn out to be. Nynaeve targeted Ex-patriot Malkiere for her guit trip,

 

We have seen enough of the borderlanders to get a clue about their sense of honour. Committing treason is not on the table.

 

Also, as seen in KoD, Elder Haman has agreed to see that as many Waygates as Ogierly possible are booby trapped, as soon as possible, to the point of ignoring the Stump.  It's a pretty safe bet that where Loial, a young man as Ogier see things, was less than successful, Elder Haman won't be.

 

Two things. First, Haman does not have that much time to locate all the waygates. Second, look at Loials and Karldins journey, what they did was trying to get the Steddings to agree to watch the waygates, not to boobytrap them. Seems like Rand forgot to teach his Asha'man how to do that.

[Feston]

The way I see it, first they will build up a massive army. It would include anyone Lan can get, wolves, the Seanchan, the heroes from the Horn of Valere, and the Aiel. This army will be used as a distraction, to draw away the Dark One's forces away from Shayol Ghul.

 

While this is happening, Rand will take the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man, and Travel straight to the entrance of the Pit of Doom. Then Rand will break the remaining seals. When the Dark One rushes out, Rand will use the Choedan Kal and any other sa'angreal they have to hit him with as much balefire as they can.

 

This is the only way I can think of to truly destroy him.

 

Of course, this will have some side effects. It could either A)Erase the Dark One as far back as the Age of Legends, and erase the entire series, or B)Interact badly with the thinness at Shayol Ghul, and tear a huge hole in the pattern.

[Corbett]

Rand is not trying to destroy the dark one. his goal is to remake the bore as god as new. if he destroyed the dark one then to keep the balance the pattern would have to spin out a new dark one that had neevr been confined outside of the pattern. That is jus the way of the pattern it must maintain the balance between good and evil.

[aevogt]

That also relys on the assumption the the DO will have a corporeal body that can even be harmed. 

Moraine alludes to the lack at the end of TGH.

 

In a G&A, RJ stated that the amount of balefire required to destroy the DO would destroy the Pattern along with it.

 

[Feston]

Rand is not trying to destroy the dark one. his goal is to remake the bore as god as new. if he destroyed the dark one then to keep the balance the pattern would have to spin out a new dark one that had neevr been confined outside of the pattern. That is jus the way of the pattern it must maintain the balance between good and evil.

 

The pattern did not create the Dark One in the first place. He was banished by the Creator at the moment of creation. Not after. That implies that the Dark One was around during the creation, and not actually part of it. Therefore, the Dark One is not part of the balance made by the Creator. The Dark One's presence in Shayol Ghul causes the Blight to expand, and would eventually leave the whole world in ruin. Also, as long as he exists he would continue to breed hatred and Shadowspawn, not to mention the bubbles of evil. That isn't what I would call "balance".

 

That also relys on the assumption the the DO will have a corporeal body that can even be harmed. 

Moraine alludes to the lack at the end of TGH.

 

 

Where exactly does she say this? I've been looking through TGH, and couldn't find it.

 

 

In a G&A, RJ stated that the amount of balefire required to destroy the DO would destroy the Pattern along with it.

 

 

Good point.

[aevogt]

In the last chapter of TGH when Moraine, Rhuarc, Mat and the Wondergirls are talking and Mat says "Shaitan is dead" and Moraine berates him for naming the Do and askes him if he "really thinks the DO would leave a human body" or words to that effect.

 

Since I read that, I just got the impression that the DO will not incarnate.

[Feston]

In the last chapter of TGH when Moraine, Rhuarc, Mat and the Wondergirls are talking and Mat says "Shaitan is dead" and Moraine berates him for naming the Do and askes him if he "really thinks the DO would leave a human body" or words to that effect.

 

Since I read that, I just got the impression that the DO will not incarnate.

 

First off, that's the end of The Dragon Reborn, not The Great Hunt. Secondly, the Dark One might not normally have a physical body, he could probably form one if he wanted to. It would make conversation/battle with Rand much more convenient for him. If he was destroyed, he would probably just dissolve into nothingness.

[Mr Ares]

In the last chapter of TGH when Moraine, Rhuarc, Mat and the Wondergirls are talking and Mat says "Shaitan is dead" and Moraine berates him for naming the Do and askes him if he "really thinks the DO would leave a human body" or words to that effect.

 

Since I read that, I just got the impression that the DO will not incarnate.

First off, that's the end of The Dragon Reborn, not The Great Hunt. Secondly, the Dark One might not normally have a physical body, he could probably form one if he wanted to. It would make conversation/battle with Rand much more convenient for him. If he was destroyed, he would probably just dissolve into nothingness.

Convenient how? Did He need one to talk to Demandred? Did He need one to taint the Source or fix the weather, or anything else He did? Why would He need to have a conversation with Rand? What do they have to talk about?

[Majsju]

Keep in mind that the DO is projecting a shadowy part of Itself into SH, so in a sense It does have a physical body.

[cloglord]

We have seen enough of the borderlanders to get a clue about their sense of honour. Committing treason is not on the table.

 

Yeah because Ryne, Kadere, Ingtar, Uno, Ragan, about 30 Shienarians, Masema, Bashere, and 9,000 Saldean horse would Never desert....I mean it's not like their rulers dissapeared without a word to go hang out doing nothing in the woods of the Deep south with Tarmon Gaidon looming or anything.....

 

Agelmar flat out says that he thinks that were Lan to raise the Golden Crane, that soldiers from throughout the Borderlands would desert.

 

And why do you think the Dark Forces will attack Tar Valon from the outside? There's an unprotected waygate there

There is a mention of ancient wards placed on the Tar Valon waygate in EoTW I think.

 

 

[Majsju]

Yeah because Ryne, Kadere, Ingtar, Uno, Ragan, about 30 Shienarians, Masema, Bashere, and 9,000 Saldean horse would Never desert....I mean it's not like their rulers dissapeared without a word to go hang out doing nothing in the woods of the Deep south with Tarmon Gaidon looming or anything.....

 

There is a small difference with those. They strolled off after having been sent away from the Borderlands.

 

We know that what is left behind after the massive army that went south is roughly enough to defend against anything short of the trolloc wars come again. Even the most naive estimation would put the onslaught that comes with TG as at the very least as massive as the trolloc wars. Ie, if thousands of soldiers betrayed their home countries, they would leave their beloved ones defenseless against hungry trollocs. And unlike when Agelmar talked about people following Lan, now everyone in the Borderlands knows that TG is coming.

But hey, perhaps the respect for a dead nation is gtreater than the honour to defend the own country, and the love for a wife or a child. "Eh, let my newborn son die, I am going to fight with the big and mighty Lan..."

 

There is a mention of ancient wards placed on the Tar Valon waygate in EoTW I think.

 

Unfortunatly, we have seen quite a few examples of wards failing.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I dont think Balefire would even touch the DO, hes a being outside the pattern, so he dont exactly have a thread to burn away.

 

And i think were all forgetting Aveindhas knife, the one that hides you from all shadowspawn, maybe even the DO himself. With that knife, Rand can skip through the Blight, giving every fade he sees a wedgie, and casually walk into the Pit of Doom.

 

I like the idea of a massive army building for a suicide battle so the hero can safely make it and destroy the big evil.... sounds familiar somehow