Bizzare Wonderings

[trakand_01]

I am reading book 10 and after many weeks of slow-going (I mean, how fast can you read Perrin?) I'm finally making progress.

 

I was reading I think chapter 8 or 9, it was Perrin, and it was the morning that they found the Darkhound prints, Berelain revealed the letter she'd had stolen from Masema's tent (Suroth's protection letter), and Masema and his men had ridden out to meet them in the woods.

 

In Perrin's POV we hear that Masema was completely changed from the man that he was when Perrin first met him in the borderlands, and that Masema himself claimed that man was dead and gone, that he was reborn as the Prophet of the Dragon, no longer 'Masema'.

 

Considering this, and considering that Masema has gone to great pains so far to avoid meeting Rand just yet, but has wreaked 'chaos' with his brigands....

 

If it were true that Masema as he was in the early books WAS dead, could it be that this 'new' Masema is Demandred in disguise?

 

RJ said that we hadnt met Demandred's alter-ego come the end of book 9 but depending if/when 'Masema' died and Demandred took over, that could be true...

 

 

 

 

 

It's just a weird theory and i'm sure someone will pull it apart immediately but I just wanted to share it.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Masema became the Prohpet way before book 9

[trakand_01]

I know, but we had long stretches of time with no mention of him, where anything could have happened.

 

Like I said, it's just a thought  ;D

[Guest Dreadlord]

Iv wondered for a while whether Masemas "transformation" is Demandreds doing though. The Dragonsworn are doing nothing at all to help Rand

[Luckers]

I don't see how it can be--that sort of crowd manipulation is beyond the effects that compulsion can pull of--he's too charismatic, too effective to be a puppet. At least to my mind.

 

That being said i wouldn't be surprised if there were people working behind the scenes to escalate the chaos around Masema, but its too finicky a job for a Forsaken--it would require too much effort on small things, and the gain simply isn't large enough.

 

My guess would be Berylla Naron and Rianna Andomeran. Both display similar impassive reactions to their instructions from Moghedian, and Berylla is described as an expert manipulator and plotter, and Rianna for her cold eye that sees through people. Both were last seen in Amadecia right before things went out of control in Ghealdin, and both would be perfectly placed to tweak events around the Prophet.

 

But yes, ultimately i think Masema's actions are completely his own. He is not Demandred--we meet him when he is in full swing in tFoH and we have not yet met Demandred's alter-ego--and i don't see how he could be under Demandred's control. He's just... an insane fanatic. It happens.

[Majsju]

I could see Demandred giving Masema a touch of Compulsion to tip him even further away fram Saneland, but that is about it when it comes to any possible connection between the two.

[trakand_01]

Never mind, it was worth a shot.

 

As I'm going through the book i'm trying to mentally note each new 'man' we come across. So far the only one i've found is the Lord who is behind Arymilla, outside Caemlyn. Lord Narin? Or something like that. His 'grand-daughter' is in Arymilla's entourage and he's a complete lecher. He's got his eye on Elenia and calls her his 'betrothed', even though he knows she is married. She describes him as quite clearly mad (insane) and aged.

 

Alternatively there are the three young yordlings which Dyelin brought back from her travels when trying to get everyone remaining behind Elayne. RJ makes quite a point of one of them being quite serious, one being 'absent without leave' and one thinking war and battle is a great old hoot. Then there's that horrible little girl... I forget her name. Catalyn Haevin, that's it.

 

Other than those, I dont see any new faces.

[Luckers]

Narin's dead. Conveniently actually, he died as Arymilla lost, and Sylvase the granddaughter stepped up. She would be my guess for a Forsaken amongst that group--short, with pale golden hair and a haughty cold demenour, whose house facilitated Arymilla--indeed was the house that allowed her to make the claim prior to capturing Elenia and what's-her-face--and prolonged the Succession, yet manuevered herself in close to Elayne immediately upon the fall of Arymilla...

 

Sounds a lot like Cyndane to me.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Narin's dead. Conveniently actually, he died as Arymilla lost, and Sylvase the granddaughter stepped up. She would be my guess for a Forsaken amongst that group--short, with pale golden hair and a haughty cold demenour, whose house facilitated Arymilla--indeed was the house that allowed her to make the claim prior to capturing Elenia and what's-her-face--and prolonged the Succession, yet manuevered herself in close to Elayne immediately upon the fall of Arymilla...

 

Sounds a lot like Cyndane to me.

 

makes sense.  it would also be a reason why she is so quiet(excluding non-forsaken possibilities).

[trakand_01]

It certainly does sound like Cyndane. Also, didnt Lanfear use a persona of 'Old Sylvie' in the earlier books, alongside Selene and her own?

[Vemynal]

If she's not forsaken i will eat my left foot...

 

I mean didn't arymilla even mention something about "never hearing of Sylvase before Narin brought her along", that screamed forsaken to me personally...that and "sylvase" could have easily controlled Narin from behind the scenes...

 

But this doesn't remind me of Cyndane (Lanfear), it reminds me more of graendal's style, be the "power behind the power" or basically the power behind Narin (who consequently Arymilla had to listen to because he was her main support) and is now in a *very close* position to Elayne.

 

 

As well as the fact that in early book 10 or 11 don't we see Graendal preparing to flee Arad Domian since its become to much of a hot spot for her?

 

As well as We have a perspective of Graendal being "summoned" by Moridin (or was it shadar Harn?) when she meets cyndane and moggy. He had to have a good reason to do that...

[aevogt]

I doubt Sylvase is a Forsaken in disguise. 

 

I think she is just portrayed as acting a lot dumber than she really is to hide her true feelings, which, had they been known, would have placed her in grave danger.  I said "grave danger" and you said "is there any other kind". 

 

Since it is apparent that she disagrees with the decision her grandfather made but was unable to do anything about it while he lived, her first act as high seat is to reverse it.  Had she given other than hints, which Arymilla was too stupid to pick up on, Sylvase could easily have found herself buried behind the barn and the next seat of House Caeren someone more reliable to Arymilla's cause.

 

Looking at it from another angle, what would any disguised Forsaken, or Chaos in general, gain from seeing Elayne on the throne?  Nothing.  Elayne on the Lion Throne would only create stability in a chaotic world and pave the way for her posession of the Sun Throne as well, creating even more stability in that chaotic country.  Exactly the opposite of the DO's orders.  Spread Chaos, not stability.

 

If any of the Chosen were involved here, they can expect Shaidar Haran's boot between their shoulder blades any second in recompense for a screw up of such monumental proportions. 

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

There's another strange thing about this Sylvase - when Elayne sees Sylvase for the very first time, "she thought she recognized" her; could be nothing, of course,  just a small irrelevant detail by RJ.

 

But could Elayne have seen Cyndane in T'A'R by any chance?

[trakand_01]

I love Arymilla, she's such a funny character. Does anyone watch Blackadder? Arymilla is a brunette Queenie.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Demandred Baldrick, the REAL Na'eblis: "Great Lord, I have a cunning plan..."   ;D

[aussie_ashaman123]

Nasin didnt die, he had a seizure that made him unable to successfully continue as head of his house, which he knew was coming and was fighting against. Why would Sylvase need to disguise herself is she was really Cyndane? No one other than the Darkfriends she controls could tell who she is anyway

[Rasta Ashaman]

I don't think Cyndane has to disguise herself at all - that is, appearance-wise (one difference between them is the hair colour - according to Luckers, Sylvase's got 'pale golden hair' , but I can't find any mention of that anywhere; and Cyndane's hair is silver); but there are dyes and wigs available, anyway.

 

What would be difficult for Cyndane to hide is her channeling ability - or is it possible to hide that too?

[aevogt]

Any channeler who know how can hide their ability or change the perception of their ability.  Witness Mesaana in the Tower and Graendal during the Battle at the end of Winter's Heart as examples.

 

We have a detailed description of Cyndane...

 

She is a short young woman with long silver hair, vivid blue eyes and an impressive bosom. She holds herself very straight striving for height. (TPoD,Ch12) She has a low, breathy voice

 

...and a less detailed description of Sylvase...

 

She is sturdy and placid. (CoT,Ch15) She is sturdy and not quite pretty with blue eyes. She usually has a vapid gaze. (KoD,Ch17)

 

It is apparent they look nothing alike. 

 

I'll admit that she could woven a disguise except for one thing.

 

A channeler cannot channel anything expect spirit when they sleep.  Obviously Mesaana in the Tower hs her chambers warded against entry so she won't be caught with her pants down, but wouldn't it seem a little odd that Sylvase sleeps behind a ward?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

has it been said that they can't tie off the illusion weave?

[Luckers]

Nasin didnt die, he had a seizure that made him unable to successfully continue as head of his house, which he knew was coming and was fighting against. Why would Sylvase need to disguise herself is she was really Cyndane? No one other than the Darkfriends she controls could tell who she is anyway

 

Fair enough, all that i remembered was that he was conveniently pushed aside at the same moment Arymilla fell.

 

Looking at it from another angle, what would any disguised Forsaken, or Chaos in general, gain from seeing Elayne on the throne?  Nothing.  Elayne on the Lion Throne would only create stability in a chaotic world and pave the way for her posession of the Sun Throne as well, creating even more stability in that chaotic country.  Exactly the opposite of the DO's orders.  Spread Chaos, not stability.

 

If any of the Chosen were involved here, they can expect Shaidar Haran's boot between their shoulder blades any second in recompense for a screw up of such monumental proportions. 

 

Nothing, but then that was no longer in her control. Her house sustained Arymilla's claim until Arymilla lost it--through the incident with the Black Ajah, which in no way could be predicted. That house singularily sustained the Andoran civil devision--until that was solved, whereupon Sylvase immediately manuevered herself close to Elayne and to the power in Andor, the only sensible thing to do. Elayne would have ended as Queen with or without Sylvase's support, Sylvase supporting her merely puts Sylvase in a good position--nothing more.

 

As for punishment... if Aran'gar wasn't punished for Egwene's little attack, which she should have been able to learn of, and prevent, why would Cyndane be punished for an event that was completely beyond her control. In the face of it she did exactly what she should--secured a position of power for the Shadow in the newly reformed Andoran court.

 

There's another strange thing about this Sylvase - when Elayne sees Sylvase for the very first time, "she thought she recognized" her; could be nothing, of course,  just a small irrelevant detail by RJ.

 

It has been suggested that Cyndane is wearing the body of Cabrianna Mecandes. In which case much like Suian, the loss of the Agelessness would see changes enough not to recognize her outright, but enough similarities to get the feeling.

 

What would be difficult for Cyndane to hide is her channeling ability - or is it possible to hide that too?

 

It is, yes. It's called masking the ability, and as long as she doesn't actively channel around anyone then her ability would not be detectable.

 

We have a detailed description of Cyndane...

 

She is a short young woman with long silver hair, vivid blue eyes and an impressive bosom. She holds herself very straight striving for height. (TPoD,Ch12) She has a low, breathy voice

 

...and a less detailed description of Sylvase...

 

She is sturdy and placid. (CoT,Ch15) She is sturdy and not quite pretty with blue eyes. She usually has a vapid gaze. (KoD,Ch17)

 

It is apparent they look nothing alike.

 

Those two descriptions were given by Elenia, who is bitter and angry, and by Arymilla, who is petty and self-absorbed, both of whom reguard Sylvase with irritation and contempt. Concider the methods of their comments--sturdy, Cyndane has large breasts, but she's not actually fat, nevertheless it would provide for that decription. And not quite pretty because of her large blue eyes? In Andor such eyes are reguarded as highly desirable. Other than that they go on about her vapidness--its clear the descriptions are coached in personal opinion.

 

Later we get a description from Elayne that shows a different story.

 

A pretty woman with alert blut eyes that remained steady on Elayne's face.

 

Which would match Cyndane just fine.

 

 

[Vemynal]

no one like my Graendal idea?

[trakand_01]

The Graendal idea isnt inconceivable, but up to this point (I'm still in this chapter where we first meet Sylvase) there's been no mention of Graendal fleeing Arad Doman. I also think she loves her luxurious surroundings, 'pretties' and extravagance too much to live as a lowly minor noble in a filth-ridden camp with Arymilla.