Will Aes Sedai embrace a cleansed Saidin?

[GrandpaG]

Female Aes Sedai have had control of the show for around 3000 years.  Will they be happy to have men to channel with again?  Some have already done it recently (during the cleansing) and they're still alive.  Legend has it that during the Age of Legends some of the greatest Aes Sedai work was done with men and women working together.  If the male half is really clean and can be trusted then maybe they can start to reverse the affect that has culled the ability out of the human race.  Maybe the Ashamen pairing off with bonded female Aes Sedai will help this along?  Some women will be skeptical thinking that they are being tricked into dropping their defenses (especially the Red Ajah...what will their job be now?).  Will the blues want to share the political power with men?  The browns will want to perform some studies, of course.  Whites will get lost in arguement over whether or not it was possible for Rand and Nynaeve to do what they supposedly did.

 

Anyway, how do you think it will turn out?  ENJOY!!!

 

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A bad day in fantasy is better than a good day in reality. ;D

[GrandpaG]

There.

 

The vote is currently 100% "Other".

 

I believe the "official" response from the White Tower and the Amyrlin Seat will be one of "let's wait and see".  They will not want to make a solid commitment for or against the cleansing.  They'll state publicly that they will need time to prove that the effort was truly successful and that there is no "residual" trace amounts of the Dark One's taint still clinging to Saidin unnoticed.  Or something to that affect.

 

Some of the greens will see it as a great opportunity to bond warders who will live as long as they do instead of dropping dead after a mere seventy or eighty years of service.  Some of the yellows will be jealous of men like Damer Flynn.  Others will flock to the new abilities and want to try linking to do even bigger and better things.  We are already seeing through the actions taken by the Black Tower that male and female channelers can learn to coexist after bonding.  Also, the ones in Rand's group who are pairing off seem to be doing OK.

 

If jealousy over having to share the political power doesn't get in the way like it did in the Age of Legends, it just might work out good having Saidin clean and non-dangerous.  At least to start.  Over time, I believe resentment and competition will take their toll and the women will wish that Saidin had never been cleansed.

 

Just an opinion. ;D

[bjclinton]

As a whole, definitely not. However, their Amyrlin (Egwene once she ousts Elaida) will. So as a whole, the White Tower will- at least on the surface.

 

I think its going to take many many many years before people are 100% convinced that the taint is gone. There is too much anti-Saidin steeped into their belief system to remove it within any reasonable timeframe. I'm guessing one full life-cycle of an Aes Sedai will make a big difference. That being said, depending on how Egwere uses the Oath Rod moving forward might significantly change the life expectancy of a channeler. It may very well take 500+ years before they're fully trusted, if then.

 

Alot will also depend on whether or not Male Channelers and Aes Sedai are united under one cause and one "Tower." If they have the option of being Aes Sedai (which would required a complete restructure of the current regime in the WT to accomodate a balance in gender equality), it might happen faster. Otherwise, they would be two seperate entities with potentially differnt goals in mind which could cause some strife.

 

I would KILL for a final chapter that gives us a sneak peak as to what the next age looks like, but I highly doubt we're going to see that......

 

Boo to the loss of RJ. Boo to the loss of potential Outrigger Novels.

[Luckers]

I said Other too, because frankly i agree about the time issues... but there is another issue involved, and that is that the Aes Sedai may not have the luxury of making a decision. At minimum there are 100,000 men who can channel in the Westlands--and more if they bother to start recruiting elsewhere in the world.

 

Their active recruitment still exceeds that of the Aes Sedai, even with the open-book policy Egwene's instituted. In a very short time it may come to be that the Black Tower may well be so strong that the White Tower will either have to accept them with open arms, or be swept aside.

[aevogt]

Deeply suspicious at first.

 

However, we already have Aes Sedai who are more or less convinced of the truth.  Merise for one.  Certainly Corele for another.  Both hae bonded an Ash'aman and have linked with him.  Cadsuane has linked with Jahar as well.

 

Now, neither of them really know what Saidin was like when it was tainted, but by the time she goes to the Rebels with Rand's offer, Merise is coming to believe that Saidin is clean.  Once she says she believes it, that will be enough for many other Aes Sedai who know she can't lie about it.

 

Many of the Reds will certainly never believe it, whatever the evidence.  200 years as a man-hater is something hard to get over.  I believe the Red should be changed to the "Taupe" Ajah, as, while it's not an easily defined shade, it is very soothing.

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

    I replied other also, but for reasons of they have no choice!! It's not going to matter if they are glad, angry, not believing, etc. Because TG is here!! Some Aes Sedai already have been taken, some are seeking out ashaman from the BT. Whether they embrace it or not, some know, or believe, that TG will need to be fought by both parts of the One Power.

 

    Now, afterwards.... that's the question.

[bronnt]

Wow. I'm the first person who voted "apathy."

 

But mostly, I agree with BJ.  The anti-male, anti-Saidin bias is really part and parcel with the Aes Sedai culture.  They will still distrust men and won't really care what they hear from men who say that the male half of the source is clean.  Basically, it's become more a distrust of men who channel than it has become a distrust of Saidin.  They've displaced their bias onto the wrong source.

 

I can't say what will happen in aMoL, but if you're picturing an integrationg of the Two Towers (sorry Tolkien) it would take something drastic.  Especially since noted DF Taim is in charge of the Black Tower.

 

Possible scenario: Taim is removed, Logain takes over the BT.  Egwene takes over the WT and reintegrates the Rebels with the Tower faction.  Tower is attacked by Seanchan, Logain arrives with Asha'man who rescue Aes Sedai from Seanchan imprisonment, and there is some sort of agreement reached which consolidates both Towers.

 

But that seems like a rather long thread to develop in one book where we already have to work out Tarmon Gaidon.

[trakand_01]

I think that the terror of male channelers which the Aes Sedai currently have is so ingrained into them from being children when their parents scare them with stories, to being Aes Sedai and knowing a whole lot more, that it will take a very long time for them to accept male channelers.

 

On the plus side, I think that the new 'generation' of channelers - Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve et al are all 'ok' with it, and this may help some.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think many Aes Sedai will come to accept that Saidin is cleansed-all Aes Sedai at the Cleansing could feel the Taint so all it would take to convince them they had succeeded is for them to link with men again, and fell for the difference.

 

The thing that gets me though, is will Aes Sedai ever trust the Ashaman unless they take Oaths on an Oath Rod?

 

Also, I think RJ has lined up the destruction of the Red Ajah. Theyre being framed for Logains rise as False Dragon, Logain is surely ready to kill them all, male channellers are no longer going to go insane, and Elaida the "Usurper" is being opposed by half the Tower... the Red Ajahs days are numbered, it seems.

[VinSanity]

Someone spot me on this, I don't have easy access to my books at the moment, but doesn't some Aes Sedai, or possibly Thom, mention in EotW that it only takes a few years (I recall five at best) before male channelers go insane?

 

If not, I don't think it's unreasonable for us to think that the White Tower would have an idea of about how long it takes for a man to go insane once he starts channeling. If most men are insane by five years, then when no male channelers have gone insane after 8-10 years, the Sisters who don't have hidden agendas will slowly come around to the fact that Saidin is cleansed.

 

Of course, what they do with that information is another matter entirely, but my theory is that there will be a lot of head-butting, mostly because the Aes Sedai all believe that men in general can't be trusted to take care of anything. More than likely, Rand will finally lose his patience with the Aes Sedai and just move in a take over like he did for most of the nations in Randland when the established nobles wouldn't cooperate. I think Rand's just fine to coexist with the White Tower, rather than pushing for some sort of union, unless the White Tower wants to by overly pushy/sneaky/snooty.

[Charlz Guybon]

Most have already taken it better than I would have expected from what we've seen with the rebel camp.

[aussie_ashaman123]

i think the Red Ajah will change occupations, to become the Ajah that goes out actively seeking women who can channel to bring into the Tower. Strangely, with the plan to bond ashaman, the Reds may become to first ajah to accept fully.

 

I think it will take time, and the way they accept will be more from the kind of person they are rather than ajah. In the end, it is the best thing that could have happened for every ajah bar white, blue and grey, and these Ajahs are unaffected.

 

I am curious to wonder if the Ashaman will become integrated into the various ajahs though

[aevogt]

Since the BT is a military organization, rather than a social one, divided by interests and talents, like the WT, I don't really see males in the Ajahs, or even grouping themselves in that same fashion.

 

Although the Asham'man we have seen the most of, there are certainly some tendencies, such as Damer gravitating towards the Yellow as a Healer.  But if you look at Narishma, he just doesn't strike me as a green.

[bjclinton]

Rand's got one thing on his mind- Win TG....he's not going to get involved in uniting the two towers- at least not more than enough to get them to work together. He has too much respect for Egwene to force anymore more than an "alliance." As for anything more, that will be for post-TG and post-RA. I doubt he will be very involved in making worldly decisions after he re-seals the DO in his prison.

 

Also, as for the Oath Rod, I don't see that being used post TG for women raised to the stole once Egwene gets things settled. We've seen a significant amount of foreshadowing that leads us to the fact that Egwene doesn't really think it helps....in fact, as the story progresses, we can see that she thinks that it hurts for the most part

 

1. Never tell a lie: She's already said that Aes Sedai have become so good at making the truth stand on its head, that people actually mistrust and scrutinize just about everything that comes out of an AS's mouth.

 

2. & 3. Use the OP as a weapon, or make a weapon that will kill another person: the belief system in these two seem to be key. We're already seeing that AS can get around this by allowing themselves to believe what they want. A good example is when the two rivers was  under attack and Verin and Allana do something with the OP to stones that are being loaded into catapults that will explode upon contact with whatever they hit. Now even though they believed that the weapons would have been used to kill the Trollocs, what would have happened if the White Cloak situation got out of hand? The Two Rivers folk could have launched a few in their direction. The result?  An Aes Sedai helping to create a weapon that could be used to kill another man....and breaking an oath that she swore not to break while holding the oath rod. Done accidentally due to a belief system. They believed that the weapons were going to be used against just Trollocs and Fades. The believed that they helped create weapons against shadowspawn. However, that might not have been the case.

 

The Oath rod is taking years off of an AS's life. Based on all of the information that we've gleaned, and topped off with the fact that I think the WT has realized how vulnerable they've made themselves w/ the oath rod (look how blind they were to the Black Ajah growing in their own ranks by using another rod to remove their former oaths), I think they've learned their lesson.

 

My prediction? No oath-rod post- TG for new AS. Or if there is one, it will be simple- not 3 oaths, open to interpretation and person belief systems. And not 3 oaths put in place so that the world will once again trust AS (which is why they're there in the first place- there were no 3 oaths in the AoL or thereafter) and , not 3 oaths taking off 3x the life expectancy that they gain from being AS. maybe just 1: .

 

"I vow to never become a darkfriend or follow the Dark One and I vow to never take an oath that will allow me to remove or forsake this oath." (it could be written better with less loopholes, but i'm too lazy and i'm sure but you get the point  ;) )

 

that's my $0.02

[Darth_Andrea]

Myself, I think it's going to take some time for Men to be accepted in the tower. A whole new way of doing things is going to have to be created. With Men and Women in the tower, they will need to segreate them durring their respective training or the possability of pregnate Novices and Accepted all over the place will be a constiant threat. A Master Of Novices will need to be chosen, to work in consert with the Mistress of Novices. And the question remains of leadership. Dose the tower continue with just the Amyrlin, do they raise both a Man and a Woman to a High seat to lead, or revert to a system like the Hall Of The Serviants where either could be chosen by what ever criteria and all follow. It's going to take time, And I honestly doubt the answers will be in AMOL.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]           

[balefireruinssteaks]

I also think it's going to take some time because the female channelers have to get used to the idea that some things work better with saidin.  Nyneave was upset about the idea that some things might be Healed differently in men than they are in women, and thought it absurd that in the Age of Legends some things were Healed even better using saidin altogether.

 

Male channelers will have to theorize on saidin and how it works in order to figure out how to combine it with saidar but I think that in time, working together, the structure of channelers in the world will fall into place.  I think the White Tower will be a place for those who wish to become Aes Sedai but that other channelers will have their place as well, as Egwene's plan dictates.

 

I dont know if Asha'man will even be incorporated into the Tower at all really, it might just have to be a sort of alliance with a ruling council or something.  I don't see Asha'man rushing to join an Ajah...but it reminds me of when the White Tower was started and there were tons of groups of female channelers around until finally the most dominant group won out and stilled the other groups who would not obey.  Hopefully it won't come to that, but it might take time to establish a leadership that incorporates male and female Aes Sedai again.

[GrandpaG]

I'm somewhat surprised by the vote results.  I really thought the distribution would be wider spread.  Oh, well.  Thanks to all the voters!

 

And, thanks for all of the GREAT comments!!!  I haven't posted over here for a while and had sort of forgotten what a great group of thinkers there are frequenting this site!  Thank you one and all!

 

As usual, it's hard to find solid answers.  There are so many different valid ways of looking at things.  And they're all interesting.  I guess that's part of the fun and excitement of fantasy.  The world would be rather boring if everything were cut and dried, right?

 

Again, thanks for participating.

 

Love,

Gramps.

 

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"A bad day in fantasy is better than a good day in reality." :)