Graendal's strength

[Jehaine]

Yup, but you'd need to keep in mind that according to Third Age standards, all of the Forsaken are 'immensely strong' in comparison. The Books have Aes Sedai practically drooling on Nynaeve for her OP strength (and to a lesser extent, Elayne and Egwene), and Nyn's about Forsaken strength as she was up to par with Moghedien, who definitely had the edge in terms of 'casting experience'.

 

Add to that that not only is she stronger than any Aes Sedai individually, but also probable to have an angreal that further boosts this strength (and knowing her rank, i doubt it's a weak one either) and Cyndane and Moridin would have a hard time soloing her imho.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Firstly, the Wotmania FAQ, whilst interesting if viewed as a rough over-viwer, is entirely subjective. The majority of the points made to sustain that 21-level list are completely based of interpretation--and loose interpretation at that. Take the comment they've raised in your quote.

 

Any interpretation on this subject is going to be subjective, we only have the characters opinions and comparisons to go on.

 

 

They extrapolate based on 'very rare' that this means that she is stronger than the other three female channelers in the Chosen (excluding Lanfear). Yet, one must keep in mind that roughly three percent of the population could channel in the Age of Legends--a conservative guess would therefore place the number of women able to channel in the hundreds of thousands--and far more likely given the degree of that society, in the millions.

 

They would therefore have us postulate that the words 'very rare' somehow indicate that the three other forsaken are weaker--three out of millions stretches the bounds of 'very rare', and all three could well be stronger than her, and the comment would still make sense--though i would agree the modality does seem to dismiss Moghedian (Graendal speaks of the girl being stronger than her, so unless Moghedian is stronger that Cyndane--a possibility, though slim--then it does put Moghedian as definately below Graendal).

 

There is absolutely no chance Moghedian is stronger than Cyndane. Graendal wonders where the Spider found a girl so much stronger than herself and wonders why she keeps her near. Moreover RJ would not have Graendal compare herself to Cyndane in that way unless it had relevance to the current situation. Having her refer to her place in the pecking order 3,000 years ago amongst the channeling population would be pointless.

 

Wotmania's posting is exhaustive, and interesting--i dont even nessasarily disagree with it about Graendal--though i do with others, especially Sharina and Alivia--but it is hardly catagorical proof.

What reason do you have for disagreeing with them on Sharina and Alivia?

 

Also Mesaana compares herself to Semirhage and finds her an equal. That she doesn't mention Graendal implies that she's stronger. If she was weaker they would treat her like Moghedian, but they don't, the other Chosen clearly respect her.

 

This, however, is not true. Firstly we have no basis for how they treat Moghedian--we never saw Moghedian interact with the other Forsaken until after she was leashed by a cour'souvra and clearly marked as Moridin's slave in both her dress and her freedom of movement. Secondly, their interactions are not limited to strength in the power--indeed in most cases they seem in opposition to strength in the power. Take, for instance, Rhavin's certainty that he or Sammael could equal Lanfear--a direct contradiction of Moghedian's implication that Rhavin would not do well in facing Nynaeve, who was at that time as strong as Moghedian. RJ himself stated that the Forsaken lied even in their own thoughts when it came to comparing their strengths in the One Power.

 

It is absolutely true. The Chosen continuously speak of Moghedian with absolute contempt from the very beginning. Since when does Moghedian imply that Rhavin would not fare well against Nyneave? I recall the exact opposite. She was scared to death to interfere believing they'd be crushed like bugs in the crossfire. I would not be suprised if Rhavin and Sammael could at least equal Lanfear in strength, the strongest men being stronger than the strongest women.

Furthermore we don't know that Moghedian is weaker in the power than the others. You state that they would treat Graendal like Moghedian were she weak, but the reality is that we don't know where Moghedian stands, except that she is weaker than Lanfear, and thinks she is stronger than Rhavin. The fact is given her retiring manner, their reactions make complete sense irrespective of her strength--and we know that manner was something she's always had, and that she lived for three hundred years prior to the war, and therefore it was not something that would have resulted from a lesser degree of strength.

 

 

If we don't know that the Spider is the weakest of the Chosen, than we don't know anything. I would bet my life savings on it. The evidence is  overwhelming in my opinion. She thinks she's stronger than Rhavin? No way. I want a quote on that.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 09:43:40 AM

 

 

Firstly, the Wotmania FAQ, whilst interesting if viewed as a rough over-viwer, is entirely subjective. The majority of the points made to sustain that 21-level list are completely based of interpretation--and loose interpretation at that. Take the comment they've raised in your quote.

 

Any interpretation on this subject is going to be subjective, we only have the characters opinions and comparisons to go on.

 

Yes, but there is subjective and there is subjective, and this analysis takes it too far. They speak catagorically of placing women on exact strength levels based on single words or sentences that often do not even actually relate to the subject at hand. They don't expand upon the logic for those choices over others, and often the deciding factor seems to have been little more than the creators personal feelings on the matter.

 

Thats fine as a very rough tool, but not for any sort of catagoric proof--and certainly it doesn't sustain the absolutist phrasings they use. I'll expand upon this below.

 

There is absolutely no chance Moghedian is stronger than Cyndane. Graendal wonders where the Spider found a girl so much stronger than herself and wonders why she keeps her near. Moreover RJ would not have Graendal compare herself to Cyndane in that way unless it had relevance to the current situation. Having her refer to her place in the pecking order 3,000 years ago amongst the channeling population would be pointless.

 

Except there is a chance. Personally i don't believe it, or even see it as remotely likely, but its there. My point in pointing it out though was merely that we don't know.

 

As for your comments--firstly, you misread that section. Graendal doesn't wonder where Moghedian found a girl who is stronger than Moghedian, she wonders where Moghedian found a girl who is stronger than Graendal. Secondly, RJ did have her refer to her place in the pecking order 3,000 years ago--and only to that. It may not have been what you would have done, and it may not make sense to you, but thats a fact stated in the books. Here.

 

"The girl was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women."

 

She states the specifier--in her own Age. The rareness is specific to the entire pecking order of the Age of Legends. You may not like it, but there it is.

 

What reason do you have for disagreeing with them on Sharina and Alivia?

 

As a lower limit i do agree with where they placed them, my issue is that no addressal is made as to the potential higher levels they could inhabit. Indeed, with Alivia they establish the upper level as at Graendal's and i see no evidence to support or sustain that. Effectively they base their entire argument around Alivia being phrased to be 'conciderably' stronger and Sharina being only phrased to be stronger, but offer nothing to sustain why their placements are so low in comparison to the likes of Lanfear and Cyndane.

 

And it IS possible that they inhabit those higher levels. Its even suggested by the Aes Sedai that Sharina is as strong as a woman can be--suggested, not stated as fact. Aes Sedai may be fools when it comes to making assumptions, but this--stated diffidently as a theory--speaks to an entirely different reality. Certainly it means that Sharina is up there with the likes of Ellisande and Caraighan, as strong as any Third Age Aes Sedai, and I see no reason why that wouldn't be on par with Lanfear--indeed it seems to me almost impossible that there hasn't been a woman that strong in history the Tower, strengths only began declining one thousand years ago. Cadsuane herself states that even five hundred years ago there would have been a dozen sisters her level.

 

Yet is this discussed or suggested? No. Why, I cannot see. Even the basis for seperating Alivia and Sharina is suspect--that Elayne used the word 'conciderably' whilst Egwene did not is not sustainable for a strength judgement. It's as much explained by one women being a scary damane and another being a fluffy novice.

 

I'm not saying they might not be where they were placed, im saying theres no evidence that they should be there--if i'd constructed that thing i would have made clear the range of strengths they might inhabity--but if we are going off purely subjective evidence alone to state it, they should definately have been placed higher, at least equal with Cyndane, if not Lanfear.

 

Quote

Also Mesaana compares herself to Semirhage and finds her an equal. That she doesn't mention Graendal implies that she's stronger. If she was weaker they would treat her like Moghedian, but they don't, the other Chosen clearly respect her.

 

This, however, is not true. Firstly we have no basis for how they treat Moghedian--we never saw Moghedian interact with the other Forsaken until after she was leashed by a cour'souvra and clearly marked as Moridin's slave in both her dress and her freedom of movement. Secondly, their interactions are not limited to strength in the power--indeed in most cases they seem in opposition to strength in the power. Take, for instance, Rhavin's certainty that he or Sammael could equal Lanfear--a direct contradiction of Moghedian's implication that Rhavin would not do well in facing Nynaeve, who was at that time as strong as Moghedian. RJ himself stated that the Forsaken lied even in their own thoughts when it came to comparing their strengths in the One Power.

 

It is absolutely true. The Chosen continuously speak of Moghedian with absolute contempt from the very beginning. Since when does Moghedian imply that Rhavin would not fare well against Nyneave? I recall the exact opposite. She was scared to death to interfere believing they'd be crushed like bugs in the crossfire. I would not be suprised if Rhavin and Sammael could at least equal Lanfear in strength, the strongest men being stronger than the strongest women.

 

I'm sorry, but its not true. The contempt Moghedian gets--which i would point out contains a degree of warriness that you've glossed over--has to do with her personality. She is a coward, a creeper, and later a bound slave of Moridin's. It is not sustainable to suggest that Graendal would be treated the same were she weaker than Moghedian--there is no evidence to suggest that, especially given that we have seen Graendal interact with Lanfear who was stronger than she and yet recieved none of the contempt Moghedian gained.

 

She was scared they'd be killed in the crossfire, yes, but the woman's a coward, and people there in the flesh are stronger than those in the dream. And she quite clearly compares herself to Rhavin--she states that she would love to see Rhavin's face when he met Nynaeve unblocked, and since we know Nynaeve and Moghedian were exactly equal in strength at that stage we know that she rated herself as above or equal to Rhavin.

 

And I would be surprised if Rhavin and Sammael equalled Lanfear--the method of his statement is clear hubris, and RJ used it directly when speaking about how the Forsaken lie to themselves about their relative strengths in the Power (which is why i always said that Moghedian believed herself to be stronger, though i trust that comment more than Rhavin's given that Moghedian was speaking of Nynaeve--it was indirect comparison, and thus more reliable to escape the bounds of hubris). But in any case the male strength is only a level or two above the female, and amongst the Forsaken that is inhabited by Ishamael, then Demandred and Aginor.

 

If we don't know that the Spider is the weakest of the Chosen, than we don't know anything. I would bet my life savings on it. The evidence is  overwhelming in my opinion. She thinks she's stronger than Rhavin? No way. I want a quote on that.

 

We don't know it though. We know she's a coward who runs from battles, we know she was equalled by Nynaeve, a Third Ager, and we know that she was weaker than Lanfear--and thats all we know. None of that speaks to her strength relative to Semirhage or Mesaana.

 

But since you asked so nicely for a quote.

 

"You are too strong to waste. I might find a use for you one day. I would love to see Rhavin's face the day he met you unblocked." [tSR - Veils]

[Majsju]

She was scared they'd be killed in the crossfire, yes, but the woman's a coward, and people there in the flesh are stronger than those in the dream. And she quite clearly compares herself to Rhavin--she states that she would love to see Rhavin's face when he met Nynaeve unblocked, and since we know Nynaeve and Moghedian were exactly equal in strength at that stage we know that she rated herself as above or equal to Rhavin.

 

Thing is, that does not mean Moghedien thinks that Nyn (and thus herself) is actually stronger than Rahvin. To me, it seems far more likely that Moghedien is playing with the contempt the forsaken has for 3rd Age channelers, Rahvin would expect a halftrained child who at the very highest would be about Siuan/Moiraines strength...Surprise!

[Luckers]

I don't know--the fact that she used the word unblocked seemed to me to make it pretty clear she was comparing their strengths--especially given that sentence directly follows her saying 'you are quite strong, i could make use of you, i would love to see Rhavin...blah blah blah.'

 

But maybe you're correct. My point is only that we shouldn't make assumptions when we no clear information--suggestive or otherwise.

[Majsju]

Blocked has nothing to do with strength, in Nynaeves case the block meant that she could not channel at all unless she was pissed off. And Moghedien should have the same belief as the Aes Sedai who wondered how the heck Nynaeve could channel at all, since Saidar requires absolute calm.

 

And looking at it from that angle, Moggy could very well have been refering to that unblocked Nynaeve would be able to weave more deftly, to compensate for Rahvins greater strength.

[Luckers]

Again, I disagree. The 'unblocked' comment speaks specifically to the ease with which Nynaeve would be able to channel. Moghedian has no knowledge of what Nynaeve's block is--and even if she did, your contention doesn't work because if she did know what Nynaeve's block was, then obviously that belief about calm proves false, and she wouldn't have said anything of the sort. It doesn't fit, not at all.

 

It speaks to me to be a comment about if Nynaeve and Rahvin met without any type of holdback, she would exceed him. Clear and simple.

 

As for dexterity--a half-trained girl equaling the knowledge, training and dexterity of a fellow Chosen--and Moghedian did comment on all of those things in her meeting with Nynaeve. She was aware of them. So no, for all that women are on average more dextrous, i don't see her suggesting that. And it really just doesn't fit the flow of her comments anyway.

[Majsju]

It speaks to me to be a comment about if Nynaeve and Rahvin met without any type of holdback, she would exceed him. Clear and simple.

 

That is not what Moghedien says. Period.

[Luckers]

Succintly stated, but you might try for some actual logic.

 

Moghedian states that she would love to see Rahvin's face when he met Nynaeve without a block--following her comments about Nynaeve's strength combined with the flow of the comments and the confrontational method in which they are delivered... then yes, I hold you to be more than wrong--indeed, the phrasing of your comments are insultingly absolute, and utterly unsubstained.

 

[Majsju]

When a character says something, it is pretty absolute.

 

What Moggy says is that Nynaeve would be a surprise for Rahvin if they met without her block. That is it. Nothing about Nynaeve being stronger, or even equal to Rahvin.

 

To attach any hidden meanings about Nynaeves strength would require Moggy to know exactly where Rahvin stands in strength, information we know the forsaken constantly lies about, and tries to hide from eachother.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

She was scared they'd be killed in the crossfire, yes, but the woman's a coward, and people there in the flesh are stronger than those in the dream. And she quite clearly compares herself to Rhavin--she states that she would love to see Rhavin's face when he met Nynaeve unblocked, and since we know Nynaeve and Moghedian were exactly equal in strength at that stage we know that she rated herself as above or equal to Rhavin.

 

Thing is, that does not mean Moghedien thinks that Nyn (and thus herself) is actually stronger than Rahvin. To me, it seems far more likely that Moghedien is playing with the contempt the forsaken has for 3rd Age channelers, Rahvin would expect a halftrained child who at the very highest would be about Siuan/Moiraines strength...Surprise!

That's exactly how I read it.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Except there is a chance. Personally i don't believe it, or even see it as remotely likely, but its there. My point in pointing it out though was merely that we don't know.

 

As for your comments--firstly, you misread that section. Graendal doesn't wonder where Moghedian found a girl who is stronger than Moghedian, she wonders where Moghedian found a girl who is stronger than Graendal. Secondly, RJ did have her refer to her place in the pecking order 3,000 years ago--and only to that. It may not have been what you would have done, and it may not make sense to you, but thats a fact stated in the books. Here.

 

"The girl was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women."

 

She states the specifier--in her own Age. The rareness is specific to the entire pecking order of the Age of Legends. You may not like it, but there it is.

I wasn't talking about that quote. I don't have my book with me but she also remarks how odd is for the Spider to hang out with a woman so much stronger than her. It's latter revealed that she does so only because Moridin has her mind trapped.

 

As a lower limit i do agree with where they placed them, my issue is that no addressal is made as to the potential higher levels they could inhabit. Indeed, with Alivia they establish the upper level as at Graendal's and i see no evidence to support or sustain that. Effectively they base their entire argument around Alivia being phrased to be 'conciderably' stronger and Sharina being only phrased to be stronger, but offer nothing to sustain why their placements are so low in comparison to the likes of Lanfear and Cyndane.

 

And it IS possible that they inhabit those higher levels. Its even suggested by the Aes Sedai that Sharina is as strong as a woman can be--suggested, not stated as fact. Aes Sedai may be fools when it comes to making assumptions, but this--stated diffidently as a theory--speaks to an entirely different reality. Certainly it means that Sharina is up there with the likes of Ellisande and Caraighan, as strong as any Third Age Aes Sedai, and I see no reason why that wouldn't be on par with Lanfear--indeed it seems to me almost impossible that there hasn't been a woman that strong in history the Tower, strengths only began declining one thousand years ago. Cadsuane herself states that even five hundred years ago there would have been a dozen sisters her level.

 

Yet is this discussed or suggested? No. Why, I cannot see. Even the basis for separating Alivia and Sharina is suspect--that Elayne used the word 'considerably' whilst Egwene did not is not sustainable for a strength judgment. It's as much explained by one women being a scary damane and another being a fluffy novice.

 

I'm not saying they might not be where they were placed, im saying theres no evidence that they should be there--if i'd constructed that thing i would have made clear the range of strengths they might inhabity--but if we are going off purely subjective evidence alone to state it, they should definately have been placed higher, at least equal with Cyndane, if not Lanfear.

 

You obviously haven't read the FAQ very closely. They do not establish Aliva's maximum strength as on par with Graendal, they say that as her minimum. They say "placing her at a higher level is quite viable".

 

Also there have been no sisters has strong in Cadsuane in a thousand years until the last two years. What she told Moraine in NS is that "1,000 years ago there would have been 50 sisters who stood higher than this child". An entirely different thing.

 

I very much doubt there were any Aes Sedai as strong as Cyndane running around even during the Age of the Compact of Ten Nations. The stronger a channeler is the easier it is for them to develop new weaves, which they often do without even trying. It just happens. Not as much would have been lost during the breaking if there were dozens of women as strong as Nynaeve running around. The legendary Aes Sedai we hear of were likely in the range of strength between Egwene and Nynaeve, and were likely those very women in earlier incarnations.

 

 

 

[bronnt]

There's another quote about Rahvin and Nynaeve from Moghedien in tSR.  I always took it to reinforce the point that Rahvin is stronger than Nynaeve.

 

When Moghedien and Nynaeve are struggling in Tanchico, Moggy starts talking-

 

Or perhaps I shall give you to Rahvin.  He always repays favors.  He does have a pretty little queen to amuse him now, but pretty women were always Rahvin's weakness.  He likes to have two or three or four dancing attendance on him. How will you like that?  to spend the rest of your life competing for Rahvin's favors.  You will want to, once he has his hands on you;he has his little tricks.  Yes, I believe Rahvin shall have you.

tSR, Into the Palace.

 

I always thought that it meant the earlier line about Rahvin meeting her would please him to have her as a pet.  I'm extrapolating a little bit to believe that he would be pleased with a strong channeler as a pet, but there's no other reason Moggy would think Nynaeve would be of particular interest to him.  The implication here is when Moggy called Nynaeve useful in the first quote 100 pages earlier, she was referring to giving her to Rahvin, which is why he was mentioned.

 

Additionally, there also seems to be an implication that Rahvin could easily compel her and manipulate Nynaeve-that she wouldn't be a threat to him.  Now you have to take that with extreme skepticism since she is telling this to Nyn as a threat about what will happen to her so that Nyn will be distracting from channeling.  But taken with her earlier more candid quote earlier, you can imagine this whole dialogue about Nynaeve and Rahvin is one consistent thought.

 

Sorry, Luckers, there actually is NO chance that Moggy is stronger than Cyndane.  That comes out in PoD.

 

Where had the Spider found a girl so much stronger than she, and why was she traveling with her?  Moghedien had always been jealous of anyone with more strength.  Or more of anything.

 

From that, it's clear that Moghedien is weaker than Cyndane, so that theory is definately quashed.  Since most of the other evidence suggests that Moggy is one of the weaker Forsaken, and the suggestions about her being as strong as Rahvin can be interpreted in many other ways, I'd have to say that Grandael is the next strongest after Cyndane.

 

Also Luckers, you did have a point about Sharina.  They really should have established the possibility that they underestimate her strength on the FAQ.  She might on par with Graendal or Cyndane or even Lanfear in terms of potential.  Summarily putting her up that high would have been overly presumptious from the evidence, but I think where they have her is a minimum.

 

One other thing I have an issue with on the FAQ is that Nynaeve is listed as being stronger than Moggy.  I don't see why we should assume that, in terms of pure strength, she'd have grown more after tSR.  Certainly, her skills would have grown, and her block broken, making her more dangerous, but by all accounts, she'd been channeling for years before EOtW.  I don't know an exact timeline for how long it takes to accrue full strength after the first time channeling-I do remember from ANS that Moiraine wasn't yet at her full strength but I can't quite remember how long she'd been channeling at that point-I think I remember her saying something about spending a year as a novice and a year as Accepted, but I don't know where that mentioned to look up the relevant quote.  Of course, I must admit that I don't know all the relevant factors involved in reaching full strength, but the years she spent channeling infrequently plus the months of channeling incessantly in the Tower and on Toman Head all the way to Tear should have added up.  Egwene was forced, but I'm certain she reached her full strength in much less time than we're giving Nynaeve.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

One other thing I have an issue with on the FAQ is that Nynaeve is listed as being stronger than Moggy.  I don't see why we should assume that, in terms of pure strength, she'd have grown more after tSR.  Certainly, her skills would have grown, and her block broken, making her more dangerous, but by all accounts, she'd been channeling for years before EOtW.  I don't know an exact timeline for how long it takes to accrue full strength after the first time channeling-I do remember from ANS that Moiraine wasn't yet at her full strength but I can't quite remember how long she'd been channeling at that point-I think I remember her saying something about spending a year as a novice and a year as Accepted, but I don't know where that mentioned to look up the relevant quote.  Of course, I must admit that I don't know all the relevant factors involved in reaching full strength, but the years she spent channeling infrequently plus the months of channeling incessantly in the Tower and on Toman Head all the way to Tear should have added up.  Egwene was forced, but I'm certain she reached her full strength in much less time than we're giving Nynaeve.

Moraine was a novice for 3 years and an accepted for 3 years. So even after six years she hadn't reached her full strength. Nyneave channeled infrequently before leaving the Two Rivers and woman seem to gain their strength in a slower and more even fashion then men who gain it in spurts. While it's possible she's only equal to Moghedien, I think it likely that she has become stronger. Elayne encounters Aiel stronger than herself, but weaker than Nyneave, so I think Moghedien falls on that level.

[aevogt]

Also, Graendal was a match for the Verin/Kumira/Shalon Circle but Graendal has an angreal.  It is a weak one and while we don't know exactly what that constitutes, an average strengthed angreal more than doubled her strength to twice what Nynaeve could hold.  Therefore, it's not unrealistic to assume that G's weak angreal increased her by, say 50%.  If she was as strong as the circle, that would make her normal strength twice that of Verin, an AS of no more than average strength.

 

Of course, this brings into question of how much her angreal adds to her strength, which we cannot know for certain.  What is certain is that it provides her suficient strength to shield and compel BOTH Moghediewn and Cyndane. 

 

So, it it a weak angreal, or is she a lot stronger than previously thought.

[bronnt]

Moraine was a novice for 3 years and an accepted for 3 years. So even after six years she hadn't reached her full strength. Nyneave channeled infrequently before leaving the Two Rivers and woman seem to gain their strength in a slower and more even fashion then men who gain it in spurts. While it's possible she's only equal to Moghedien, I think it likely that she has become stronger. Elayne encounters Aiel stronger than herself, but weaker than Nyneave, so I think Moghedien falls on that level.

 

Ah, okay then.  Thanks for clearing up the timeframe for Moiraine for me.

[Harmless Bandit]

I would have to go with Majsju and Charlz about the interpretation of Moghedien's comment. The Forsaken are used to meeting half-trained children, as they put it. Aes Sedai strength is negligeable compared to them. Rahvin hasn't almost certainly met any Third Ager of Elayne/Egwene's strength, which is considerably higher than your average Aes Sedai strength.

 

Consider then that Nynaeve stands 'considerably' higher than Elayne/Egwene, at least the Spider's equal. I always took it to mean that Rahvin would not be pleasantly surprised by Nynaeve's strength, but I see it as a stretch to extrapolate from that that Nynaeve is/will be stronger than Rahvin. There are quite a few people who are convinced of this over at Wotmania.

 

Perhaps Rand is not the best when it comes to judging strength, but he did estimate (based on the strength of his attacks) Rahvin to be strong, 'perhaps as strong as he was'. There is a margin of error there, but a small one, I would say. How strong was Rand at that time? I assume his strength increased beyond that, but by how much? Nynaeve would have to be (eventually) on a par with Rand's strength of that time (at the end of tFoH) for her to be stronger than Rahvin.

 

Earlier on when confronting Lanfear Rand had been able to fend off her attacks. Now I am not saying Rahvin is as strong as Lanfear, but, considering the infered and possibly large gap between Lanfear and Nynaeve, I can't see Rahvin below Nynaeve.

[Luckers]

When a character says something, it is pretty absolute.

 

What Moggy says is that Nynaeve would be a surprise for Rahvin if they met without her block. That is it. Nothing about Nynaeve being stronger, or even equal to Rahvin.

 

To attach any hidden meanings about Nynaeves strength would require Moggy to know exactly where Rahvin stands in strength, information we know the forsaken constantly lies about, and tries to hide from eachother.

 

Quite clearly i disagree champ. To me those comments more than specifically focus on a comparison of strength--its pretty absolute to me too, your interprtation is not.

 

I wasn't talking about that quote. I don't have my book with me but she also remarks how odd is for the Spider to hang out with a woman so much stronger than her. It's latter revealed that she does so only because Moridin has her mind trapped.

 

Ah, I found it. Point conceeded. Cyndane is definately stronger than Moghedian.

 

You obviously haven't read the FAQ very closely. They do not establish Aliva's maximum strength as on par with Graendal, they say that as her minimum. They say "placing her at a higher level is quite viable".

 

Fair enough. I saw the statement 'Alivia can be found at this level' and assumed.

 

Also there have been no sisters has strong in Cadsuane in a thousand years until the last two years. What she told Moraine in NS is that "1,000 years ago there would have been 50 sisters who stood higher than this child". An entirely different thing.

 

Your point being what precisely? Oh, I missed the date, sure... but what is this entirely different thing?

 

I very much doubt there were any Aes Sedai as strong as Cyndane running around even during the Age of the Compact of Ten Nations. The stronger a channeler is the easier it is for them to develop new weaves, which they often do without even trying. It just happens. Not as much would have been lost during the breaking if there were dozens of women as strong as Nynaeve running around. The legendary Aes Sedai we hear of were likely in the range of strength between Egwene and Nynaeve, and were likely those very women in earlier incarnations.

 

And your basis for any of that is what... precisely? Strengths began declining a thousand years ago, and we have comments about insanely strong Aes Sedai like Ellisande.

 

Your wrong about the new weaves too--where have we seen strong channelers display a higher ability for discovering weaves? Nynaeve's were simply self-taught, a thing that Samitsu matched and exceeded, and she's not even midling strength. Egwene's discovery of traveling? Specific to her experiences and education about Dreaming. Her discovery of Cuendillar--specific to facility with earth and descriptions she got from Moghedian. Elayne's ter'angreal? Specific to her study of an a'dam, a talent which has nothing to do with strength. Rand's discoveries? Fumblings. A result of lack of training--and something witnessed in even incredibly weak channelers if they learn to channel unaided.

 

No, it's unsustainable.

 

I always thought that it meant the earlier line about Rahvin meeting her would please him to have her as a pet.  I'm extrapolating a little bit to believe that he would be pleased with a strong channeler as a pet, but there's no other reason Moggy would think Nynaeve would be of particular interest to him.  The implication here is when Moggy called Nynaeve useful in the first quote 100 pages earlier, she was referring to giving her to Rahvin, which is why he was mentioned.

 

Yet that same quote speaks specifically to the reason Rahvin would want her is her prettiness. *shrug*

 

Additionally, there also seems to be an implication that Rahvin could easily compel her and manipulate Nynaeve-that she wouldn't be a threat to him.  Now you have to take that with extreme skepticism since she is telling this to Nyn as a threat about what will happen to her so that Nyn will be distracting from channeling.  But taken with her earlier more candid quote earlier, you can imagine this whole dialogue about Nynaeve and Rahvin is one consistent thought.

 

He could easily compel her if she were handed too him--once under control, she wouldn't be a threat. Compulsion, remember, had nothing to do with strength.

 

Sorry, Luckers, there actually is NO chance that Moggy is stronger than Cyndane.  That comes out in PoD.

 

 

Quote

Where had the Spider found a girl so much stronger than she, and why was she traveling with her?  Moghedien had always been jealous of anyone with more strength.  Or more of anything.

 

From that, it's clear that Moghedien is weaker than Cyndane, so that theory is definately quashed.  Since most of the other evidence suggests that Moggy is one of the weaker Forsaken, and the suggestions about her being as strong as Rahvin can be interpreted in many other ways, I'd have to say that Grandael is the next strongest after Cyndane.

 

Agreed. I came to the same conclusion after Charlz pointed it out.

 

One other thing I have an issue with on the FAQ is that Nynaeve is listed as being stronger than Moggy.  I don't see why we should assume that, in terms of pure strength, she'd have grown more after tSR.  Certainly, her skills would have grown, and her block broken, making her more dangerous, but by all accounts, she'd been channeling for years before EOtW.

 

 

Mmm. For ten years. That still does leave some chance that she could still have a little bit of stength to attain--certainly in tGH barely six months prior she wasn't at her full strength, only just above Moiraine's.

 

I don't know an exact timeline for how long it takes to accrue full strength after the first time channeling-I do remember from ANS that Moiraine wasn't yet at her full strength but I can't quite remember how long she'd been channeling at that point-I think I remember her saying something about spending a year as a novice and a year as Accepted, but I don't know where that mentioned to look up the relevant quote

 

 

She spent three years as a novice, and three as accepted, and she had been channeling for some time before she came to the Tower. I'd say seven years in total.

 

I would have to go with Majsju and Charlz about the interpretation of Moghedien's comment. The Forsaken are used to meeting half-trained children, as they put it. Aes Sedai strength is negligeable compared to them. Rahvin hasn't almost certainly met any Third Ager of Elayne/Egwene's strength, which is considerably higher than your average Aes Sedai strength.

 

Indeed, it's possible. I don't think that's the case, but it's possible. It is not, however, fact, as Maj would suggest.

 

Consider then that Nynaeve stands 'considerably' higher than Elayne/Egwene, at least the Spider's equal. I always took it to mean that Rahvin would not be pleasantly surprised by Nynaeve's strength, but I see it as a stretch to extrapolate from that that Nynaeve is/will be stronger than Rahvin. There are quite a few people who are convinced of this over at Wotmania.

 

I quite frankly do not. The competitive pleasure in Moghedian's comment suggest that she sees it being painful for Rahvin... simple as that. The comment is linked directly to strength, and the follow through is clear--Moghedian relishes seeing Rahvin meet Nynaeve unblocked because the women would be able to take him on. The fact that it would end badly for him--or at least push him--is the basis of her pleasure.

 

Perhaps Rand is not the best when it comes to judging strength, but he did estimate (based on the strength of his attacks) Rahvin to be strong, 'perhaps as strong as he was'. There is a margin of error there, but a small one, I would say. How strong was Rand at that time? I assume his strength increased beyond that, but by how much? Nynaeve would have to be (eventually) on a par with Rand's strength of that time (at the end of tFoH) for her to be stronger than Rahvin.

 

Earlier on when confronting Lanfear Rand had been able to fend off her attacks. Now I am not saying Rahvin is as strong as Lanfear, but, considering the infered and possibly large gap between Lanfear and Nynaeve, I can't see Rahvin below Nynaeve.

 

Rand, even if forced,had been channeling for barely a year. Nynaeve for ten. And he based it solely on the effectiveness of attack, which in part involved control of TAR.

 

I'm sorry, but i just do and can see Rahvin below, or equal to Nynaeve.

 

 

[The Lost One]

I am a little confused by the discussion and have a question.  Can a female channeler accurately determine a male channeler's strength in the power? 

 

I understand they can estimate based on shielding a man and him trying to break the sheild and being shielded themselves and trying to break the sheild, but are there other ways? 

 

I can see them making judgements based on what the other person does with the power (you have to be a certain strength to open a gateway, to lift so many pounds etc), but are there other ways for a female channeler to accurately determine a male channeler's strength? 

 

I don't mean to sidetrack the discussion, that question just came up from reading the discussion.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Well, female channelers can detect the amount of saidin used when testing the residue following an event, and Moghedian implies some method of detecting male channeling--though that was almost certainly a lie.

 

Other than that there is linking i suppose.

[bronnt]

In the AoL, there is no direct way for a woman to detect a man channeling.  Demandred hypothesized in WH that ter'angreal would have been created during the breaking to accomplish that purpose, and we have seen a few of those.  But he had a thought like "They must have ter'angreal, unless those half trained girls have discovered yet another impossible talent."  So it was unheard of to him.

 

Nacelle, an AS with the Rebel group, apparently discovered a weave to accomplish it, though.  She can tell what Narishma is doing in KoD.

 

Of course, if a woman linked with a man who could channel and she had control of the link, she'd have some sort of feel for how much of saidin he could draw.  She wouldn't have her own personal baseline which most people use for making comparisons, but any female channeler who had linked with enough different men would have some comparative information about their strengths.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Your point being what precisely? Oh, I missed the date, sure... but what is this entirely different thing?

Those fifty sisters  weren't all as strong as Cadsuane, the vast majority were no doubt in the level that lies between Moriane and Cadsuane.

 

I very much doubt there were any Aes Sedai as strong as Cyndane running around even during the Age of the Compact of Ten Nations. The stronger a channeler is the easier it is for them to develop new weaves, which they often do without even trying. It just happens. Not as much would have been lost during the breaking if there were dozens of women as strong as Nynaeve running around. The legendary Aes Sedai we hear of were likely in the range of strength between Egwene and Nynaeve, and were likely those very women in earlier incarnations.

 

And your basis for any of that is what... precisely? Strengths began declining a thousand years ago, and we have comments about insanely strong Aes Sedai like Ellisande.

 

Your wrong about the new weaves too--where have we seen strong channelers display a higher ability for discovering weaves? Nynaeve's were simply self-taught, a thing that Samitsu matched and exceeded, and she's not even midling strength. Egwene's discovery of traveling? Specific to her experiences and education about Dreaming. Her discovery of Cuendillar--specific to facility with earth and descriptions she got from Moghedian. Elayne's ter'angreal? Specific to her study of an a'dam, a talent which has nothing to do with strength. Rand's discoveries? Fumblings. A result of lack of training--and something witnessed in even incredibly weak channelers if they learn to channel unaided.

 

No, it's unsustainable.

Samitsu is an expert at the old method but Nyneave had already discovered the 5 power weave for healing, not to mention her discovery of how to heal stilling. Other sisters in the past were dreamers, why were they not able to rediscover traveling when Egwene could? Scores of brown sisters have been studying ter'angreal,  but none until Elayne could figure out how to make them. The fact that Rand discovered so much by merely fumbling is my point. I don't see how it backs you up at all. Give me an example of a weaker than average channeler discovering something new. The only example I can think of is the Malkieri sister in KOD.

 

Oh and strengths have been declining since the Trolloc Wars if not before.

 

[aevogt]

I myself have always wondered about her comment vis-a-vis Ny and Rahvin

 

Coward Moggy may be, but stupid she is not.

 

From Rahvins's own POV.  He thinks that either he or Sammael could take Lanfear straight up.

 

However, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the Chosen are notorious liars, or his comments may have been ignorance or bravado.  

 

The question I have to ask is this.  Would Rahvin lie to himself.  Would he delude himself into thinking that he could take her if he couldn't.  That would be dangerous.  He might SAY it, if it wasn't true, but not think it.  RJ's characters don't do that.  

 

I find it unlikely that at the time the girls were in Tanchico, Nynaeve was stronger than Rahvin.  

[Harmless Bandit]

The thing is, for Moghedien's comment to mean what Luckers says it does, Moghedien would have to know how strong Rahvin is. Does she? I have no idea. And who says she is not deluded about her own strength vs. Rahvin's? If, in the dozens of years the Forsaken have known each other it's still hard to assess one woman against another woman, isn't it going to be harder to assess a woman against a man?

 

Moghedien is a coward, so I could see lying to herself (even unknowingly) about her strength to maintain her self-esteem up.

 

aevogt touched a good point. I can see Rahvin proclaiming aloud that he can take out Lanfear as an act of pure bravado, but why lie to himself in his own thoughts? A banter? Why include Sammael? Though I guess it could be also that he doesn't know her true strength.

 

Perhaps Rand is not the best when it comes to judging strength, but he did estimate (based on the strength of his attacks) Rahvin to be strong, 'perhaps as strong as he was'. There is a margin of error there, but a small one, I would say. How strong was Rand at that time? I assume his strength increased beyond that, but by how much? Nynaeve would have to be (eventually) on a par with Rand's strength of that time (at the end of tFoH) for her to be stronger than Rahvin.

 

Earlier on when confronting Lanfear Rand had been able to fend off her attacks. Now I am not saying Rahvin is as strong as Lanfear, but, considering the infered and possibly large gap between Lanfear and Nynaeve, I can't see Rahvin below Nynaeve.

 

Rand, even if forced,had been channeling for barely a year. Nynaeve for ten. And he based it solely on the effectiveness of attack, which in part involved control of TAR.

 

I'm sorry, but i just do and can see Rahvin below, or equal to Nynaeve.

 

I don't have the book with me, but I do remember something like this: "Rahvin was strong, perhaps as strong as Rand, but he didn't have an angreal/but Rand had an angreal, and it had proved enough to harry him."

 

Something along those lines. That to me indicated Rand comparing their strength in the One Power, I see nothing related to T'A'R. But I could be wrong, if anyone has tFoH they could check.

 

And honestly, it can be misleading when you say that Nynaeve had been channeling for ten years. Technically it's true, but her control was sporadic at best, and nothing conscious. Siuan was able to shield her when she was already holding saidar.

[bronnt]

The problem is that we really don't know all the factors that are involved with women gaining strength in the power.  We know that women progress in strength in a rather linear fashion compared to men, but that's about it.  Most of the female character that we get information about in that regard have been forced. 

 

If women who aren't forced all follow a similar progression in terms of attaining strength, then we can say that one factor is merely age.  Or at least, time after first channeling.  I don't know what the other factors are for a non-forced woman.  Is it frequency?  Is it channling more often, or do you just need to embrace the source?  Will you grow in strength if you continue channeling the same weaves with the same strength, or do you need to increase how much of the OP you use in weaves?  Anyway, we don't even know whether there's much similarity among non-forced women.

 

You can make some guesses based on the different amount of times women spend as novices and Accepted, and we know it's different times for many of them.  But strength in the power isn't the only factor in becoming Aes Sedai, even if they place too much importance on it.  Some women who take a long time before the test may have the strength necessary, but haven't developed the skill to make complex weaves that are present in the test for the shawl.