Will Rand ACTUALLY die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul?

[Guest Dreadlord]

I hate the comparisons between Rand and Jesus. Rand is only vaguely similar to Jesus, in the same way that Rand is like the one-armed bloke that seems to get blamed for everything

[Serenla]

What if Rand and Lews Therin were to merge like in Min's viewing?  I can't see Rand living through any battle if he's busy fighting LT for saidin; so for Rand to live his consciousness as Rand must die, but all his memories and his body continue to live as some mix of the two. 

 

As for the viewings/dreams of him close to death, even fighting Ba'alzamon he's out for days and the Last Battle plus all the abuse he's endured since leaving Emond's Field should have him out for quite a while.  If the viewings were of before the Last Battle, I could see merging all the memories of the two knocking him close to death too.  Accepting that in his past life he murdered everyone he loved and so on would not be easy for Rand to handle, he wont even accept the fact that in his last life he was this guy.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It's true that severing does snap the bond in a way that feels to the bondees like the death of their bondmate, but we do know thats not accurate with Rand. Prophecy makes it more than clear that one way or another, Rand will die. It's why i support the bodyswap, its the only thing that permits everything that occurs.

 

Or hell, it could be accurate with Rand, maybe he is severed at some stage--it would allow for Egwene's dream about women around a funeral pier raising their voices in grief about a man who was not dead yet--but that being said, the death does come. Seperate prophecies confirm that. The way i would work it in is if in the bodyswap Moridin in Rand's body was severed, before being tracked down by Alivia and Rand and killed.

 

I think the cutting of the bond would make for some dramatic licence, in terms of the harem not knowing if he's alive or dead. Additionally, it'd link in with the various resurrection myths in Rand's amalgamated-hero make-up (Jesus (yes I know it's only loosely), Arthur, etc.).

 

But then again, there's the Arthuresqe viewing of the funeral-ship sailing off with 3 women looking suitably sad ... arse.

 

Hmmmm... Not sure about severing being linked to the man who's not yet dead. It doesn't seem to make sense. If severing can be healed, then Rand wouldn't be seen as a man who was not yet dead.

[RAND AL THOR]

I hate the comparisons between Rand and Jesus. Rand is only vaguely similar to Jesus, in the same way that Rand is like the one-armed bloke that seems to get blamed for everything

 

I too dislike these similarities. Fantasy books should not be linked to individual religion in this world.

 

Anyway, that is not the point of this discussion. In my opinion, Rand WILL die. Where is difficult to say because the prophecies only mention "HIS BLOOD ON THE SLOPES OF SHAYOL GHUL" and this doesn't necessarily mean that he will DIE on the slopes of Shayol Ghul: why his old wound may just bleed while he was there. That would satisfy the prophecy.

 

It is clear that he will live again. "TWICE DAWNS THE DAY" clearly means a solar eclipse. "HE WHO IS NOT DEAD YET LIVES" most probably means that while everyone assumes that Rand is dead, he actually isnt.

 

To sum up, in my opinion Rand will die and return to life during/after a solar eclipse. Since no eclipses have so far occured in the series, we cannot know how they may affect Randland. Quite possibly, eclipses may even influence the One Power in some way. In my opinion, it is very clear that the eclipse will have a very important part to play in the revival of Rand. It is going to be a fantastic book like no other. :D

And of course, I do not want Rand to die. Any sequels after Tarmon Gaidon would be fairly boring and unimportant, since the Dragon loses all value after TG. I did have an idea though, : Rand always said that he wanted Elayne to get the Sun Throne. However, I cannot see how she can possibly rule Andor and Cairhien simultaneously. She is having a lot of trouble with Andor alone! What if Rand becomes King of Cairhien? (This is just an idea. It would be disappointing to me if this happened- I want an end to Rand and nobility after TG. I want him to settle down to a simple life, though that is very unlikely.) :D

 

[sunshine + gasoline]

Excuse me if I offended.

 

I meant the Jesus comparison purely from a storytelling point of view. I mean, I enjoy the martyr story of Christ (even tho I'm not a christian myself) and there are similarities betwen the two which I always thought were intentional by RJ.

 

The whole aspects of marked hands and a foretelling of death to save mankind from damantion is pretty intresting to me. Not saying he's a direct copy of Christ but that there are influences from Christ in Rand. I was saying that I hope Rand has a grand finale like Christ but his soul remains alive since I think that would be the most satisfying ending for me personally. Not saying that it must happend that way, I certainly would hope RJ had an even more dramatic ending that I would find totally unexpected.

 

However denying that RJ was influenced by many cultures and religions of our world when he created his lush world would be like claiming that water is not wet. Pointless.

 

I mean just look at the Dark One himself - Shai'tan - I think most people know around here that Shaitan is the Devil figure in common Islamic faith. Not saying they are the same but that RJ was influenced by things that actually exist in our cultures. There are many other examples but I'm off-topic as it is so I'll stop here.

 

However one last thing; I personally feel that making a fantasy world tie in with our own only makes it more real and believable to me which is what I would call brilliant storytelling.

 

 

[Myndrunner]

It's cool, Sunny-G.  There are countless Christ references in all of literature. How can one not be influenced by the Greatest Story Ever Told? 

 

I see more of a Tyler Durden meets Luke Skywalker thing going on than a Christ figure; however, I suspect that the Prophet of the Dragon is becoming so obsessed that he might start believing that the Dragon must die.  Also, now you have me wondering.....will there be a Judas in his camp of friends?  We sorta have a 12 Apostles parallel in his 12 companions....hmmmmmm.....will one betray him?

[RAND AL THOR]

You didnt offend anyone, sunshine(at least not me). All authors are influenced by every book and movie they have ever read/watched. Ideas all orignate from somewhere. Every author pulls bits and pieces from here and there and spins them into his own story. Similarities between fictional characters and real-life figures may be coincidental or purposely done.

 

I was simply stating that I do not like to view Rand as a christ-like figure. There are quite a number of similarities. The figure 13 is quite popular in the WOT. And as we know, 13 has a certain significance in christianity.

 

My simple opinion is this: I prefer to view a fictional character as a fictional character. Linking them with any figure that you may know partially destroys the personality of the character that the author has built up with so much effort.

 

No offence taken, and none intended.

[sunshine + gasoline]

It's cool, Sunny-G.  There are countless Christ references in all of literature. How can one not be influenced by the Greatest Story Ever Told? 

 

I see more of a Tyler Durden meets Luke Skywalker thing going on than a Christ figure; however, I suspect that the Prophet of the Dragon is becoming so obsessed that he might start believing that the Dragon must die.  Also, now you have me wondering.....will there be a Judas in his camp of friends?  We sorta have a 12 Apostles parallel in his 12 companions....hmmmmmm.....will one betray him?

 

Hah, Tyler meets Luke. Didn't think of that but considering how insane the image in my head is of the two combined... I LIKE IT!!! :o

 

I'm kind of divided on your question. I mean it would make sense for someone to betray Rand considering how much betrayal came Lews Therin's way. Why should Rand be so safe from it?

 

On the other hand I just can't fit a betrayal as a good story option out of the current main chracters. None of them seem the type to me. I guess we'll just wait and see what happens.

 

But I certainly hope some of them actually die. I mean they've pretty much been owning the shadow since book one. I personally feel that it's about time someone started to pay the price of war and not just the unnamed commoners you read about dying.

 

RAND AL THOR Fair enough. =D

[Luckers]

Frankly i've never gotten the christs references. As vaguely messianic figures there is always the urge to push the similarities--but honestly, two more divergent figures i could not find. One is a military figure who scourges his people in order to focus them into a weapon to be used against the Shadow, the other is a spiritual figure whose focus was entirely on his peoples emotional and metaphysical wellbeing.

 

There are other messianic figures from other religions that fit much closer--some of whom also suffered wounds to the side, hands, and feet... its actually a fairly common religious motief. Aside from the most obvious--the Nordic--I'd go with a budhist boddhisatva, or a Taoist Holy Immortal before i went to Jesus.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Sunshine,  :D

 

And also,Luckers, good point: Rand is always talking about making himself harder and using his friends for his purposes in the war. Christ was not like that. It makes Rand almost seem cruel, but he isnt because all his doing is for the greater good. Everyone will be happy once the bore is sealed. ;D

[sunshine + gasoline]

Frankly i've never gotten the christs references. As vaguely messianic figures there is always the urge to push the similarities--but honestly, two more divergent figures i could not find. One is a military figure who scourges his people in order to focus them into a weapon to be used against the Shadow, the other is a spiritual figure whose focus was entirely on his peoples emotional and metaphysical wellbeing.

 

There are other messianic figures from other religions that fit much closer--some of whom also suffered wounds to the side, hands, and feet... its actually a fairly common religious motief. Aside from the most obvious--the Nordic--I'd go with a budhist boddhisatva, or a Taoist Holy Immortal before i went to Jesus.

 

True enought but if you'll notice I mentioned it in the way that it was my hope that he develops in the Jesus way - dying for mankind etc. It is true that he is not really a Christ figure right now.

 

I was arguing that if he'd learn to be human again and end up dying painfully on the slopes of Shayol Ghul to liberate men from shadow - I'd consider him a Jesus-esque character. Which is still my personal hope for Rand.

 

Him becoming human again has been so forshadowed for quite a few books so I always thought it a set deal that he wouldn't be a cold bastard forever. For lack of better terms. >__>

[Luckers]

My point would still be that thats not a Jesus monopolized reality. Dying for us is pretty much the fate of most of our idols--barring the few that kill their lovers for us.

 

We're a macabre race.

[Myndrunner]

barring the few that kill their lovers for us.

 

You mean like OJ?

[sunshine + gasoline]

My point would still be that thats not a Jesus monopolized reality. Dying for us is pretty much the fate of most of our idols--barring the few that kill their lovers for us.

 

We're a macabre race.

 

True but adding the other things I think it would add up.

 

Marked hands - Stabbed hands?

Wound under the chest area - Speared on the cross?

Crown of Swords - Crown on Thorns?

Reborn - Jesus will be reborn?

 

Doomed to die - Destined to die on a cross?

Might get ressurected at TG - Jesus walks again after death?

Death for mankind's sake - Death for mankind's sake?

 

Of course, I'm not saying it like "OMG IT'S JESUS", I'm just saying that I see some Jesus in Rand but like you said; so far his personality doesn't really match up.

 

My theory is that RJ really like the visual aspects of the Christ and implemented them into Rand to some extent. I think people are reading too much into my Jesus connection so far, I meant it only as an influence and not even really a large one.

 

lol, Myndrunner. =D

[Duneflayer]

lol your taking a risk Sunshine last time I brought up religion on here I was hit so hard my mom called to see what the noise was. not my point.

 

anyway heres my take on it( I skimed the pages before so i apologize if anyone said this already

 

1. his old wounds could break open on SG

2. don't the profices say "The Dragons blood on the slopes of Shayol Gul." not the Dragon Reborn The Dragon

 

plus all the things in Mins viewings I did see discussed above

[Luckers]

Who is OJ? I mean it's a definate cooling beverage, but I don't recall it killing its lover--and really, can oranges even feel love?

 

Heh, I kid, I kid. I googled the guy--makes me glad ive never watched american idol if he's one of yours, but it did prove i need to keep more up to date with American criminals.

 

True but adding the other things I think it would add up.

 

Marked hands - Stabbed hands?

Wound under the chest area - Speared on the cross?

Crown of Swords - Crown on Thorns?

Reborn - Jesus will be reborn?

 

Doomed to die - Destined to die on a cross?

Might get ressurected at TG - Jesus walks again after death?

Death for mankind's sake - Death for mankind's sake?

 

Of course, I'm not saying it like "OMG IT'S JESUS", I'm just saying that I see some Jesus in Rand but like you said; so far his personality doesn't really match up.

 

Except, again, other messianic figures much more closely match these issues. Many aesthics nailed their hands and feet, and a wound to the side is as common as going to the underworld to save your dead lover, mythologically speaking. And Crowns of Thorns? The Oak King and the Holly King, the seighlie courts? Your average court fool? And Resurection? Dying for Mankind? These are all age old--and given RJ was a Mason he would know of them.

 

And when we move into rebirth and the rest you move beyond it simply being a motief matched in thousands of religions, you move into the specific realm of the bodhisatva. A single soul born again and again to aid or assist humanity in a specific single way as the wheel of time turns... you don't really get more specific in analogy.

 

I'm not trying to make trouble, but honestly i dont see two more divergent individuals, and the things people leap on for similarity are things that are repeated in a thousand religions accross the face of the world.

 

My theory is that RJ really like the visual aspects of the Christ and implemented them into Rand to some extent. I think people are reading too much into my Jesus connection so far, I meant it only as an influence and not even really a large one.

 

And all I'm saying is that those visual aspects are not 'of the Christ', and that there are other mythological figures that fit much closer if we're looking for a historical influence.

[sunshine + gasoline]

I guess you're right since when it all comes around to it, Christianity must have had it's influences as well. I'm not really familiar with those myth you mention - religion was never in my intrest fields. I guess people relate to what they know and last I checked Christianity was still number one as world's largest religion. I guess it was too obvious of a comparison.

 

Also don't worry about making trouble. I take no offence in getting educated, I have no real personal intrest vested into any of this (except the WoT side I guess). I'm a complete atheist so as far as I was concerned I was comparing connections between two stories. Trust me, it takes more to get me pumping with any form of hostility, so have no fear.  =D

 

In fact you have managed to spark my intrest in some of the things you mentioned. I now feel forced to check out wiki again and get more understanding about myths and religions of the past.

[Duneflayer]

so like sunshine do u believe that Christ lived or do u think the whole thing is made up?