Dream World Smackdown!

[Kadere]

But for the sake of argument let's say Perrin CAN call all of the wolves, I think that would give him quiet an advantage. The wolves have even more experience then Egwene.

[Guest Majsju]

But the wolves are not humans, nothing says that can manipulate reality in T'A'R the way Egwene can. For all we know, they can be relying on brute force the way Perrin is, all it would take for Egwene is to turn them into sheep the few seconds she would need to off perrin.

[Kadere]

I think there's enough eviedence to suggest that the wolves do have some kind of control on how to minipulate TAR. Hopper has the ability to fly and change locations with ease, they probably can't influence it to the extent that Egwene does, but they seem to have some power.

[Leafburner]

I think the wolves would have considerably more power in TAR than Egwene. She's been studying TAR for what? 3 or 4 years? the wolves have resided in and used TAR to communicate since the wheel started spinning.

[Guest Majsju]

I think the wolves would have considerably more power in TAR than Egwene. She's been studying TAR for what? 3 or 4 years? the wolves have resided in and used TAR to communicate since the wheel started spinning.

 

So they're going to talk Egwene to death? :lol:

[Luckers]

Heh.

 

One thing that has been pushed is that the wolves are independent... yes they'll help Perrin at times when he asks, but they might just as frequently say no, as has happened in the past. They seem even less inclined to aid in TAR, so there is no indication that he could 'use' them... And additionally, theres no suggesting Perrin would have a chance to call them even if they would come, remember in the Shadow Rising, he couldn't contact any of them, which indicates the limits of his ability, even if they heard and passed it on, and jumped there... well, it wouldn't take Egwene more then a few minutes to defeat Perrin. Egwene has a strong natural ability, and the ability to channel at her back, versus Perrin's basic, physicalized ability... Egs would win.

[Blade]

yes, but let's throw in Perrin's ta'verenness into the mix. I highly doubt that the wolves are simply going to allow a person of the kind of importance that perrin is simply die just because the feel like it. In all previous experiences when the wolves have interfered it has been for someone else. I haven't actually yet seen the wolves come to help specifically Perrin except for in hopper's case. Besides, in Perrin's early dreaming stages he always had a wolf in his dreams guarding over him and since one of those wolves was killed by the forsaken, it couldn't have been hopper, therefore we can assume that the wolves are at least semi-aware of what Perrin is doing whenever he enters TAR. After all, Hopper has always instantly known when Perrin has entered.

[ono-neko]

If Perrin, being a ta'varen, and Egwene have to fight each other, I think, no matter how weak he is in TAR, the pattern will force him to win. So I vote for Perrin just because he has the pattern/wheel backs him up.. unless the patern is done with him, then I would say Egwene may have the upper hand.

[Luckers]

Ta'verenism doesn't work that way. It bends chance in both negative and non-negative way, but it doesn't control the weaving of the pattern. Suggesting that it wouldn't allow him to lose is like suggesting a hurricane wouldn't allow him to lose. The hurricane that swirls around him does give him an advantage by putting his enemies off balance, sometimes dramatically so, but it is still just an effect.

 

We have no real reason, either, to make a judgement about what the Wolves think of Perrin's importance. Indeed, Perrin has faced danger and death in TAR before without drawing any other wolf then Hopper, who does it because he knows Perrin. Additionally there was non instantaniousness to Hoppers arrivals...

[Kaznen]

I think Perrin would win. For Egwene, she has the ability to enter and exit at will. For Perrin, TAR is a part of him. There have been times when he has appeared there without trying.

 

Also, Perrin has more experence fighting in TAR. He has even encountered forsaken and come out alive. The closest Egwene has come to a "real fight" is in tDR when she ambushed the two BA sisters.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think Perrin would win. For Egwene' date=' she has the ability to enter and exit at will. For Perrin, TAR is a part of him. There have been times when he has appeared there without trying.

 

Also, Perrin has more experence fighting in TAR. He has even encountered forsaken and come out alive. The closest Egwene has come to a "real fight" is in tDR when she ambushed the two BA sisters.[/quote']

 

Egwene has also encounted Foresaken in Tel'aran'rhiod and came out alive. In one of the books (can't think of which right now) Moghedien tries to trap Egwene there. Moghedien didn't know how she was, but was just trying to eliminate someone who could come and go at will. Egwene escaped from the trap and she wasn't even finished being trained. Based on the BWB, Moghedien was the best in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not just of the Foresaken. Egwene fought and won a contest of will with Moghedien and never even knew what was going on.

[Kaznen]

I think Perrin would win. For Egwene' date=' she has the ability to enter and exit at will. For Perrin, TAR is a part of him. There have been times when he has appeared there without trying.

 

Also, Perrin has more experence fighting in TAR. He has even encountered forsaken and come out alive. The closest Egwene has come to a "real fight" is in tDR when she ambushed the two BA sisters.[/quote']

 

Egwene has also encounted Foresaken in Tel'aran'rhiod and came out alive. In one of the books (can't think of which right now) Moghedien tries to trap Egwene there. Moghedien didn't know how she was, but was just trying to eliminate someone who could come and go at will. Egwene escaped from the trap and she wasn't even finished being trained. Based on the BWB, Moghedien was the best in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not just of the Foresaken. Egwene fought and won a contest of will with Moghedien and never even knew what was going on.

 

When was this? I know she got kicked out by Lanfear once. There was the time in when Egwene was in Emonds Field but Moggy wasn't trying to trap her. She was more intrested in Elayne.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think Perrin would win. For Egwene' date=' she has the ability to enter and exit at will. For Perrin, TAR is a part of him. There have been times when he has appeared there without trying.

 

Also, Perrin has more experence fighting in TAR. He has even encountered forsaken and come out alive. The closest Egwene has come to a "real fight" is in tDR when she ambushed the two BA sisters.[/quote']

 

Egwene has also encounted Foresaken in Tel'aran'rhiod and came out alive. In one of the books (can't think of which right now) Moghedien tries to trap Egwene there. Moghedien didn't know how she was, but was just trying to eliminate someone who could come and go at will. Egwene escaped from the trap and she wasn't even finished being trained. Based on the BWB, Moghedien was the best in Tel'aran'rhiod, and not just of the Foresaken. Egwene fought and won a contest of will with Moghedien and never even knew what was going on.

 

When was this? I know she got kicked out by Lanfear once. There was the time in when Egwene was in Emonds Field but Moggy wasn't trying to trap her. She was more intrested in Elayne.

 

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 26: "Dreams of Galad"

 

Stepping out from behind a thatch-roofed house, Moghedien wondered idly where this little village was. Not the sort of place she would expect to see banners flying. The girl had been stronger than she had thought, to escape her weaving of Tel'aran'rhiod. Even Lanfear could not improve on her abilities here, whatever she claimed. Still, the girl had just been of interest because she was speaking to Elayne Trakand, who might lead her to Nynaeve al'Meara. The only reason to trap her had simply been to rid Tel'aran'rhiod of one who could walk it freely. It was bad enough that she must share it with Lanfear.

 

The "girl" in the quote is Egwene and Moghedien was trying to trap her there.

[Jonn]

Some of you sound absolutely delusional.

 

Egwene is a Dreamwalker, certified. She wasn't even done with formal training with the Wise Ones yet she could stand toe to toe with them by the time she left them for Salidar. She's not even done developing her skills and she is easily one of the strongest around in the field.

 

What's this malarkey about wolves and Perrin? They have their own strengths in TAR, but they certainly aren't THAT strong. They're simply tied in some strange way to TAR. Their expertise didn't stop Slayer from chasing most of the wolves out of the Two Rivers. There was a scene where Perrin was with Hopper and Birgitte appeared to Perrin, but Hopper never even sniffed her out.

 

Now, there is no doubt that Perrin, in his way, is a strong Dreamer. The thing is, every time he enters the Wolf Dream he runs the risk of becoming a wolf in mind. He doesn't even really know exactly what he's doing. He just zips about and uses the Dream to communicate and look for certain clues. Egwene is on a whole other level. She can locate just about anyone and can float around in the dreams of others. Heck, if she wanted to, she could snag people out of their sleep into a place of her choosing.

 

Her powers are far more complex than Perrin's. In fact, it wouldn't even be a fight. Perrin wouldn't even know what was going on before he was kicked out of TAR and sent to his natural dreams.

[Guest Majsju]

Jonn, compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...

[Jonn]

Jonn' date=' compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...[/quote']

 

Yeah huh. It is an extension of this rather irrational hatred of Egwene. What is strange though is that similar sentiments have been building up against Perrin because of his obsession with, of all things, protecting the ones he loves (Faile).

 

Sometimes it's just too stupid for me to stay quiet about. Not that I'm the brightest bulb in the socket, but please...A trained Dreamer of immense strength against an untrained one of moderate strength..Get a grip people. Some people really hate America, but it doesn't mean you can say that their armed forces would get defeated in an open battle against say, New Zealand's. New Zealand's rugby team would win easily against the United States' though.

[Jedimuppet]

Jonn' date=' compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...[/quote']

 

Yeah huh. It is an extension of this rather irrational hatred of Egwene. What is strange though is that similar sentiments have been building up against Perrin because of his obsession with, of all things, protecting the ones he loves (Faile).

 

Sometimes it's just too stupid for me to stay quiet about. Not that I'm the brightest bulb in the socket, but please...A trained Dreamer of immense strength against an untrained one of moderate strength..Get a grip people. Some people really hate America, but it doesn't mean you can say that their armed forces would get defeated in an open battle against say, New Zealand's. New Zealand's rugby team would win easily against the United States' though.

 

Perrin's not a dreamer is he? I thought that wolves sort of half inhabited TAR, and since he is a wolf brother, he does, too.

 

J

[Jonn]

Jonn' date=' compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...[/quote']

 

Yeah huh. It is an extension of this rather irrational hatred of Egwene. What is strange though is that similar sentiments have been building up against Perrin because of his obsession with, of all things, protecting the ones he loves (Faile).

 

Sometimes it's just too stupid for me to stay quiet about. Not that I'm the brightest bulb in the socket, but please...A trained Dreamer of immense strength against an untrained one of moderate strength..Get a grip people. Some people really hate America, but it doesn't mean you can say that their armed forces would get defeated in an open battle against say, New Zealand's. New Zealand's rugby team would win easily against the United States' though.

 

Perrin's not a dreamer is he? I thought that wolves sort of half inhabited TAR, and since he is a wolf brother, he does, too.

 

J

 

I'd say he technically is. A Dreamer can enter tel aran rhiod at will and can control being there enough to keep relative control without losing concious will, which would make a normal person fade in and out of regular sleep and TAR dreaming. Perrin can do this and without the aid of a terangreal no less.

The fact that his ability stems from the fact that he is a wolfbrother makes no difference. A Dreamer is defined by his or her ability. The Wise Ones implied as much in their teaching of Egwene. Some of the strongest Dreamers can't even channel.

 

In Perrin's case, he's even stronger than most wolves when it comes to manipulating TAR. It's part of the reason he was able to drive off Slayer/Luc. That distinguishes him as a pretty talented Dreamer, but in no way up to the level of challenging the top tier Dreamers like the Aiel Wise Ones, Moghedien or even Egwene herself. His best bet if he ends up running into one of them in a fight within TAR, would probably be to run. He's strong enough to escape at least, I think, and maybe MAYBE pull off a surprise or two against someone who underestimates him. Otherwise, he isn't really well suited to be battling a trained Dreamwalker.

[Luckers]

Actually thats not nessasarily true. It was his intelligence that aided him against slayer... the only manipulation of TAR was in creating a bow and arrows. Moreover Egwenes displayed ability involves a much greater manipulation of TAR then Perrin. She can jump from place to place, change her form, manipulate the reality around her, dispel other peoples constructs aginst their wishes... including in that Moghedian and Lanfear... Perrin has only created physical weapons... its all he's ever done.

[bloodandashes]

Ta'verenism? Is that even a word?

 

ta'verenism, [n.]: the state or condition of being ta'veren...yeah, it has a certain ring to it.

 

Has anyone raised the point that none of the Two Rivers lads like fighting women? And I've lost count of how many times Perrin has beaten himself up (metaphorically) over putting his friends and neighbours in danger. Why would he take on Egwene at all, let alone in Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

But if they do arc up on one another, I'm cheering for Perrin. Egwene annoys the metaphorical out of me at times.

[Jonn]

Actually thats not nessasarily true. It was his intelligence that aided him against slayer... the only manipulation of TAR was in creating a bow and arrows. Moreover Egwenes displayed ability involves a much greater manipulation of TAR then Perrin. She can jump from place to place' date=' change her form, manipulate the reality around her, dispel other peoples constructs aginst their wishes... including in that Moghedian and Lanfear... Perrin has only created physical weapons... its all he's ever done.[/quote']

 

Who are you responding to? Please be more spcific because otherwise it's hard to see who you are referencing when you say something like "that's not necessarily true."

 

What's not necessarily true?

 

In any case. He has displayed a rudimentary ability using the Need technique. He used it in the Two Rivers when he was hunting for clues, and it eventually led to him discovering that the Manetheren Waygate was being used to ferry trollocs into the Two Rivers. He's tried to use it other times as a resource, but since he has to pretty much learn everything on his own, there is no guide to tell him exactly what it is he is doing. He can also move very fast from one place to the next, a skill he picked up from Slayer.

These skills make him a Dreamwalker by simple definition.

Otherwise I pretty much agree with you that Perrin is no match for Egwene.

[Blade]

I don't think you can compare the relative powers of Egwene and Perrin in the dream world. Egwene does have more skill, granted, but I would argue that Perrin is just as strong if not stronger in the dream world, but he hasn't had anyone to train him there. He's learned everything he's learned on his own.

[Jonn]

I don't think you can compare the relative powers of Egwene and Perrin in the dream world. Egwene does have more skill' date=' granted, but I would argue that Perrin is just as strong if not stronger in the dream world, but he hasn't had anyone to train him there. He's learned everything he's learned on his own.[/quote']

 

Stronger? What books are you reading here? Hopper guides him. Elyas guides him as well as he can. As far as we know, his powers are exclusive to wolfkin. Fact is, RJ makes it quite clear that Egwene is on a far higher level than most can even dare to approach. If Nynaeve can overtake Moghedien in TAR with the simple aid of a ter'angreal, and Egwene can far outstrip Nynaeve, you can take a guess where that places Egwene.

 

Sure, it's just as well to say that Graendal can match up against Demandred and maybe get lucky and score a win, but no way would anyone say that she really has a chance in a fair duel, unaided. There's a clear difference in strength. The disparity between Egwene and Perrin is just as clear. Just because you possess some strength doesn't mean you can actually be a match for someone who is not only stronger, but more skilled as well.

 

Get a grip people. Just because you like Perrin more than Egwene as a character, doesn't mean you should make things up that aren't true about him just to fit your fancy.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Jonn' date=' compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...[/quote']

 

Yeah huh. It is an extension of this rather irrational hatred of Egwene. What is strange though is that similar sentiments have been building up against Perrin because of his obsession with, of all things, protecting the ones he loves (Faile).

 

Sometimes it's just too stupid for me to stay quiet about. Not that I'm the brightest bulb in the socket, but please...A trained Dreamer of immense strength against an untrained one of moderate strength..Get a grip people. Some people really hate America, but it doesn't mean you can say that their armed forces would get defeated in an open battle against say, New Zealand's. New Zealand's rugby team would win easily against the United States' though.

 

Perrin's not a dreamer is he? I thought that wolves sort of half inhabited TAR, and since he is a wolf brother, he does, too.

 

J

 

I'd say he technically is. A Dreamer can enter tel aran rhiod at will and can control being there enough to keep relative control without losing concious will, which would make a normal person fade in and out of regular sleep and TAR dreaming. Perrin can do this and without the aid of a terangreal no less.

The fact that his ability stems from the fact that he is a wolfbrother makes no difference. A Dreamer is defined by his or her ability. The Wise Ones implied as much in their teaching of Egwene. Some of the strongest Dreamers can't even channel.

 

In Perrin's case, he's even stronger than most wolves when it comes to manipulating TAR. It's part of the reason he was able to drive off Slayer/Luc. That distinguishes him as a pretty talented Dreamer, but in no way up to the level of challenging the top tier Dreamers like the Aiel Wise Ones, Moghedien or even Egwene herself. His best bet if he ends up running into one of them in a fight within TAR, would probably be to run. He's strong enough to escape at least, I think, and maybe MAYBE pull off a surprise or two against someone who underestimates him. Otherwise, he isn't really well suited to be battling a trained Dreamwalker.

 

The abilitty to enter Tel'aran'rhiod at will and unaided does not make one a "Dreamer". Being a "Dreamer" means that you can have dreams that you can interpret to predict the future. The books are relatively clear that while the two are related, they are not the same thing. Even the Aiel Wise Ones weren't positive Egwene was a Dreamer and not just a Dreamwalker. Like Anaiya, they were open to the possibility that she was, but they treated it as two seperate Talents.

[Jonn]

Jonn' date=' compare this thread, and the people claiming Perrin as the winner, with the people going on how much they hate Egwene in other threads. I think you might find a few similarities...[/quote']

 

Yeah huh. It is an extension of this rather irrational hatred of Egwene. What is strange though is that similar sentiments have been building up against Perrin because of his obsession with, of all things, protecting the ones he loves (Faile).

 

Sometimes it's just too stupid for me to stay quiet about. Not that I'm the brightest bulb in the socket, but please...A trained Dreamer of immense strength against an untrained one of moderate strength..Get a grip people. Some people really hate America, but it doesn't mean you can say that their armed forces would get defeated in an open battle against say, New Zealand's. New Zealand's rugby team would win easily against the United States' though.

 

Perrin's not a dreamer is he? I thought that wolves sort of half inhabited TAR, and since he is a wolf brother, he does, too.

 

J

 

I'd say he technically is. A Dreamer can enter tel aran rhiod at will and can control being there enough to keep relative control without losing concious will, which would make a normal person fade in and out of regular sleep and TAR dreaming. Perrin can do this and without the aid of a terangreal no less.

The fact that his ability stems from the fact that he is a wolfbrother makes no difference. A Dreamer is defined by his or her ability. The Wise Ones implied as much in their teaching of Egwene. Some of the strongest Dreamers can't even channel.

 

In Perrin's case, he's even stronger than most wolves when it comes to manipulating TAR. It's part of the reason he was able to drive off Slayer/Luc. That distinguishes him as a pretty talented Dreamer, but in no way up to the level of challenging the top tier Dreamers like the Aiel Wise Ones, Moghedien or even Egwene herself. His best bet if he ends up running into one of them in a fight within TAR, would probably be to run. He's strong enough to escape at least, I think, and maybe MAYBE pull off a surprise or two against someone who underestimates him. Otherwise, he isn't really well suited to be battling a trained Dreamwalker.

 

The abilitty to enter Tel'aran'rhiod at will and unaided does not make one a "Dreamer". Being a "Dreamer" means that you can have dreams that you can interpret to predict the future. The books are relatively clear that while the two are related, they are not the same thing. Even the Aiel Wise Ones weren't positive Egwene was a Dreamer and not just a Dreamwalker. Like Anaiya, they were open to the possibility that she was, but they treated it as two seperate Talents.

 

 

A Dreamer technically is both a Dreamwalker and a Dreamer.

I may be out of line in implying that Perrin can Dream as the wise ones and Egwene can. My memory is a little hazy as to whether Perrin ever had visions while in the Wolf Dream. Maybe someone else can clarify.