Masema is an extreme Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad cross

[Rahela Sedai]

First off no this is not an April Fool's joke.

 

I was reading tFoH last night and it just occured to me how similiar to alot of religious prophets Masema is, if you take out all the beheadings and stuff.

Like Buddha he only eats simple food and gives the rest away to the poor and he meditates.

Like Jesus and Muhammad he preaches about how women should dress decently, is a big fan of marriage and he preaches that everyone is equal in the eyes of the Lord Dragon. In the Jewish aspect of things he says that speaking the name of the Lord Dragon is blasphemy, just like how Jewish people do not speak the name of God.

He's a crazy mix of all these famous religious prophets he's just alot more violent.

Anybody else agree with me?

[trakand_01]

Yes I agree, actually that's why I thought he was called 'The Prophet' - because he is, and he has all the stereotypes of the famous Prophets.

 

Alternatively he's a raving loon.

 

How can anyone be so obsessed with a figure as he is with Rand? No, not Rand; the Dragon Reborn. I dont think it matters to him that the Dragon Reborn is a man named Rand al'Thor.

[Spool]

I think he got a crush on Rand. All that "trying to hate Rand as much as possible" in the second book and all. Then he falls for him at the end of TGH and well things lead to another....

[trakand_01]

I think he's your typical religious fanatic; absolutely convinced that what he believes is true, refuses to see bad in anything to do with his worship-idol and justifies his actions as being 'good' because he thinks they promote the success of his cause. I think it is very similar to the many wars which have been fought on religious grounds, and the jihad.

 

It's quite a scary prospect really, that someone can be so totally obsessed with a figure that they will justify anything - beheadings, everything else he does.

[aussie_ashaman123]

First off no this is not an April Fool's joke.

 

I was reading tFoH last night and it just occured to me how similiar to alot of religious prophets Masema is, if you take out all the beheadings and stuff.

Like Buddha he only eats simple food and gives the rest away to the poor and he meditates.

Like Jesus and Muhammad he preaches about how women should dress decently, is a big fan of marriage and he preaches that everyone is equal in the eyes of the Lord Dragon. In the Jewish aspect of things he says that speaking the name of the Lord Dragon is blasphemy, just like how Jewish people do not speak the name of God.

He's a crazy mix of all these famous religious prophets he's just alot more violent.

Anybody else agree with me?

 

I agree with most of it, not the more violent part though. I think hes about right on par with religious nutters who believe only they know the true way to Salvation and willing to use force to get his message across. Just remember what makes him dangerous are the people who believe his words. Without his followers, Masema is just another headcase ranting to himself.

[trakand_01]

The biggest difference, unfortunately, between Masema and your ordinary 'religious nutter' as aussie_ashaman123 put it (love the term, quite agree) is that whereas what your ordinary 'nutter' tells you will happen if you don't follow their beliefs is (IMO) a load of rubbish, what Masema tells you will happen if you dont follow Rand is unfortunately probably quite accurate...

[aevogt]

I'm not trying to start a holy war here because my disagreement is not about the religiopus aspects but I think you've got it a little backwards.

 

The ones you mentioned, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad had the "pure" version of their message that was perverted by some those who came after. 

 

I'd put Rand in as the messianic figure and classify Masema along the lines of Jim Jones or Bin Laden one of those nutbars.

 

Although, I'm hard pressed to find a fanatical representative from my own philosophy although what my brothers in Tibet are going through could easily produce some.

 

 

[Rahela Sedai]

Well the reason I don't see Rand as a messianic figure is because he really doesn't pay attention to any of that. He doesn't have a message he just focuses on getting himself to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I grouped Masema up with other religious figureheads because he has a message more akin to what they said, you know, "My way is the right way to salvation." In no way am I trying to suggest that his methods are the same as Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad. Just that their messages and mannerisms are sometiems similiar.

[aevogt]

That's a really good point as well.  No doubt Jesus and Muhammed were seen as radicals by their contemporaries.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

That's a really good point as well.  No doubt Jesus and Muhammed were seen as radicals by their contemporaries.

 

Exactly.

 

Just imagine what would happen today... I declare to the world that I am hearing voices from God. I then stand on my soap box and start to preach to crowds. Everyone ignores me. I then take it to the next level, creating a public disturbance to gain attention, again and again, the authorities take notice. I get told to either shut up and behave, or I'll be sent to the nuthouse. I continue (because God is telling me to).

 

End:

A. I'm either locked up in a nice big room with soft walls and have to wear a hug-me jacket for the rest of my natural days.

B. I'm shot by some other nutter.

C. I'm shot by the state.

D. I accomplish my mission and bring about return of God/apocolypse/whatever else...

 

Rand has some advantages though. The most powerful group (AS) believe that he is right (not in the right mind) and that TG is coming.

 

He also has a series of propehcies that, for some reason I've never been able to get my head around, people take as gospel. Seems odd to me ... I mean how many people really take Revelation or Nostradamus' writings seriously?!

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

He also has a series of propehcies that, for some reason I've never been able to get my head around, people take as gospel. Seems odd to me ... I mean how many people really take Revelation or Nostradamus' writings seriously?!

 

Look around.  Far too many to ignore with any safety.

 

In Rand's case, this world has a documented history of Prophesies which have come to pass.  He really was the only one who was able to draw Callandor.

 

Those who are really into Nostradamus will point to any number of things that have happened and find some way to correlate them to this or that passage in his writings.  They want or need to believe, therefore they find associations that allow them to believe.  Likewise with Revelations.

[42Bonzo88]

    I think what the thread is about concerns Masema, not Rand, as the cross. I agree with Masema being a "nutter that comes after" the Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad person. 

    If anyone has seen "Life of Brian" by Monty Python, can see where the "nutters" come in. I can't remember it exactly but at one part Brian loses his shoe and a lady picks it up yelling "The shoe is the way! We must follow the Shoe!!" or something like that.

 

[Orange Fescue]

First off no this is not an April Fool's joke.

 

Like Jesus and Muhammad he preaches about how women should dress decently, is a big fan of marriage and he preaches that everyone is equal in the eyes of the Lord Dragon. ....

 

He's a crazy mix of all these famous religious prophets he's just alot more violent.

Anybody else agree with me?

In terms of Christianity, St. Paul would be a better match for Masema than Jesus. Among other things, Jesus wasn't a prophet. A prophet speaks for God but is not himself divine. According to (mainstream) Christianity, Jesus did not speak for God; Jesus was God made flesh. Rand/the Dragon is the Christ figure within Randland. Masema has begun preaching that he is the Creator made flesh or the Son of the Creator or something along those lines.

 

Masema is more like a psychotic, evil version of St. Paul of Tarsus. Originally a ferocious opponent of Jesus/Rand, Paul/Masema changed sides after a supernatural experience in which the person he'd opposed was revealed to him as the Dragon/Messiah. Like post-conversion Masema, post-conversion Paul dedicated himself to spreading the good news about his messianic figure and he taught on a number of issues related to morality--including the behavior of women--and his pastoral letters to early Christian churches form a good-sized chunk of the New Testament.

[benr]

Blessed are the cheesemakers

[Orange Fescue]

Blessed are the cheesemakers

Yea, verily, for they shall have strong bones and teeth.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Jesus wasn't a prophet

 

Muslims believe that he was.

[trakand_01]

I have found, from personal experience of 'born again christians' that those who convert mid-life to a belief system, rather than being life-long followers, tend to be more fanatical, obsessed and agressive towards non-believers.

 

I think it comes from the fact that lifelongers have learnt that not everyone agrees with them, they never will, and what the hell, at least they (think they) know where they're going when they die and everything will be fine for them - if you dont want to believe, that's your problem. I like those believers, they dont try to force me into their belief systems.

 

On the other hand, you have those who never believed, who (as I continue to do) preferred to trust to science and proven facts, believed that after their death they would not go to some shiny-walled fluffy place in the sky, but their brain would die, the doctors would take whatever was still useful and the rest would be burnt to a cinder. THEN, they think something amazing happened. Something happened to them that for them, was enough to make them believe. And they did. They became believers at a late stage in their lives, be that mid-teens or late fifties or anything inbetween, the point is that they (like Masema) had had the maturity of mind to weigh up the differences between science, and faith, and did a full 180.

 

Now, because they are blissfully happy in their belief - misguided or not, depending on your own personal beliefs - they believe that everyone else also needs to do a full 180, and set about making it their mission to turn you, regardless of your own personal wants or desires.

 

Those people, like Masema, are much more prone to frustration, anger and agression because they simply cannot understand why you do not want to experience what they have done, why you cannot change your way of thinking. Because they believe that they have changed their way of thinking for the better, they see you as less able, a worse person, even bordering on bad-souled if you fail to do the same. That's when they get angry and in Masema's case, start beheading people and taking ears as souvenirs.

 

And we find 'prophets' in every facet of life, from those religious ones wishing to convert us to their ways, to the woman in the office (and we all have one) who is so convinced that her brand of computer/car/shoes/makeup/add consumer item here is the best, that she will stop at little short of marching you to the shop to buy one. Ever seen the scorn in that woman's eyes when you buy from the competitor? There's your beheading.

 

Ever come across a mother who is so obsessed with her child's wonderfull-ness that she preaches to everyone who will hear how 'little johnny' is so much better than their children? Read the reports on the news about 'helicopter' parents who hover over these 'perfect' children to the point of telephoning their employers to negotiate payrises? There have been the odd reports of these parents intentionally sabotaging other children / employees chances in school or for a promotion, to aid the success of their own child. There's your beheading.

 

And with a twinkle in our eyes, we are all prophets ourselves, for we preach the goodness of RJ, and look aghast at those we see reading TG. But the thing that strikes me is that for us to be able to compare the two, and quite often go into more than synoptical detail about the plots, we prove that actually, we've all read TG at least once, and likely still have the series on the shelf, ready for after we've read aMoL...  ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Every belief system seems to have its violently fanatical adherents.

 

Some are sincere ( and sincerely mistaken ).  Others are just ruthlessly opportunistic ( ie. evil ).

 

When you look at the kind of mind games real people play with themselves in order to be "right" and "good" and "holy", Verin's little episode with the captured AS becomes kindergarten stuff.

 

By Masema's very flawed reasoning, the Dragon has been reborn, Tarmon Gai'don is upon the world, and all those who won't join the Army of the Dragon that he's raising are ipso facto evil and enemies of the Light, and deserve every bad thing he can visit upon them.  He's al Qaida, the Klu Klux Klan, Thughees, the Gestapo, you name it, all rolled into one.

 

In one sense, Cadsuane could be said to be working to prevent Rand from becoming another Masema.  A very worthy goal.

[aevogt]

Nicely put Bob.

[Orange Fescue]

Jesus wasn't a prophet

 

Muslims believe that he was.

Yes, Muslims believe Jesus/Issa was a prophet. Christian believe Mohammed was not a prophet. Jews believe neither was a prophet. In the context of the discussion, I've opted to treat each religious figure from the view of the religion he founded. Hence, Jesus was not a prophet, He was God made flesh. Mohammed was a prophet, not a heretic preaching a false revelation. The Buddha was not a prophet but was a great teacher who spoke of his own Enlightenment and the way all beings can attain the same enlightenment rather than delivering a revelation from a god.

[Orange Fescue]

As Trakand says, there is no zeal like the zeal of the converted. Bob's post is interesting since it speaks directly to another book I'm reading right now, Elantris, which is Young Mr. Sanderson's debut novel. There's a zealous and rather murderous priest, Dilath (?), who converted to Shu Dereth after the fall of Elantris and is very much in that "convert or kill" mold. He has a lot of bitterness and anger that Masema lacks, though. That's one of the creepier things about Masema, I think. Despite everything he's doing, he seems so cold and inhuman about it. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Fortunately, I think we've been spared any glimpses inside Masema's head, so it's hard to judge his real degree of passion and zealotry.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And with a twinkle in our eyes, we are all prophets ourselves, for we preach the goodness of RJ, and look aghast at those we see reading TG. But the thing that strikes me is that for us to be able to compare the two, and quite often go into more than synoptical detail about the plots, we prove that actually, we've all read TG at least once, and likely still have the series on the shelf, ready for after we've read aMoL...  ;)

 

Indeed.  And, as I did with WoT when it became apparent that Jordan wasn't going to get to the point anytime soon, I've walked away from Goodkind until he finally decides to make his point and be done with his series.  I think it's been 10 years since I bought one of Goodkind's books.  I know it was about that long that I left WoT alone to finally ripen to the point where Jordan was willing to wrap it up.

[aevogt]

As Trakand says, there is no zeal like the zeal of the converted. Bob's post is interesting since it speaks directly to another book I'm reading right now, Elantris, which is Young Mr. Sanderson's debut novel. There's a zealous and rather murderous priest, Dilath (?), who converted to Shu Dereth after the fall of Elantris and is very much in that "convert or kill" mold. He has a lot of bitterness and anger that Masema lacks, though. That's one of the creepier things about Masema, I think. Despite everything he's doing, he seems so cold and inhuman about it. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

 

Just as no one hates a smoker more than someone who's given up the cigarettes themselves.  I myself have wished for a terminal disease so I can have an excuse to srart smoking again.

 

Ah, the sweet nicotine.  Three years and counting.