Semirhage

[Guest Dreadlord]

If any Darkfriend was to kill Semirhage I would love it to be Taim. I want his darker side to be even more apparant in the next book. I would also like it if we found out Taim killed Asmodean-that'd fit extremely well

[Harmless Bandit]

Alviarin is a Darkfriend (a high one), so it's possible she is connected to the Dark One somehow (maybe not like the Forsaken are, but somehow), which would explain why Shaidar Haran is able to block her.

 

And apart from the example given above by Rasta Asha'man, there is another one I do remember, where Shaidar Haran is present and a globe of black fire appears in the air, most likely emanating from him. That seems to me like channeling.

[aevogt]

I think his abilities are more tricks allowed him by the DO, (or possibly the actual effects of HE reaching out through the bore) as his proxy rather than any true channeling ability. 

 

The only reason I think this, and I'll admit up front it's thin, is that when teaching one of his unruly charges a lesson, SH always uses physical force. 

 

Moghedien - Fadehandles her and pushes her at the wall of the vacuole.

Mesanna - Well, we all know what happened there.

Aran'gar - He grabs her by the throat, lifts her in the air and chokes her, albeit one-handed.

He kills Graendal's pets, one in each hand.  (Hand of the Shadow, get it?)

 

Now, we know he has some weakness attributed to his proximity to SG and when you have weakness, it's best to hide your strength, so doing things by Hand (ba dum bum) could all be due to that.

 

But I would think, if he could truly channel, and I'm not ruling it out completely, he would have done so with one of the Chosen as a lesson about challenging him.

 

I'm just saying.

 

Now, back to Semihrage.  Slayer could track her down in TAR, (about which Cadsuane is, if I'm not mistaken, virtually clueless), step out, remove an a'dam or stab her through the heart with his trusty poisoned daggers, and step right back into TAR.  Elapsed time maybe 10 seconds.  We've seen him pull this little trick twice (once in the Stone and once in Far Madding)and I cannot truly see an effective counter against it.

 

Maybe a ward of Spirit that keep her from being approached by any type of Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, though begin what she is, how it wouldn't kill her I can't imagine.  If anyone could even figure out how to do it.

 

Or, even better, tie Aviendha's blunt knife ter'angreal to her leg.  The shadow will never find her with that hiding her.  That one just came to me.

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

Or perhaps Shaidar Haran uses his hands because it's a direct (read physical) contact, and he takes a perverted pleasure in that? Fades like their little pleasures, don't they? I would prefer crushing someone's throat with my own hands rather than channeling (if I could, and I were a Darkfriend, and was sure I could overwhelm the other party effortlessly). Since SH apparently cancels out the Forsaken every time they meet, I can see him using brute force for the pleasure of it.It's not like anyone (Ogier and Trollocs aside) can challenge him physically.

 

On Semirhage, I believe Slayer can kill her. Cadsuane gotta crash somewhere sometime. Even if Semi was guarded 24/24, Slayer has surprise on his side; he can drop out of T'A'R anytime. But it would depend on who is guarding her, I guess.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on March 31, 2008, 06:57:02 PM

We don't know that, his ability to jam the source has only ever been used on the Forsaken, and their abilities are open to him to access through the black threads

Not exactly true:

 

Quote

Unthinking, she [Alviarin] reached for the Source. And nearly screamed. The Source was gone! She was not shielded; there was simply nothing there for her to embrace! CoT, ch.21

So the jamming works on any channeler, right? And, even if the jamming works only in the presence of any of the Forsaken, that shouldn't be a problem - Semi's still got her black thread attached.

 

I was speaking of those guarding her, not of Semi herself--i rather doubt she has free access to the Source. And Alviarin is a Darkfriend too, and has been to Shayol Ghoul personally, and 'bathed in the dark Ones presense'. That still speaks to a pre-existing connection.

 

 

 

Quote from: Luckers on March 31, 2008, 06:57:02 PM

and we don't know that he can channel the True Power. Yes he has a number of peculiar tricks, but we've as yet to see how effective they are in battle.

 

You mean Shady is just incredibly hot that it can do THIS? 

 

Quote

Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haran’s hand, the hand of the Hand of the Shadow. In an instant the wooden haft was charred and twisted; the spearhead dropped off. The Myrddraal let the blackened stick fall and dusted soot from its palm. ACoS, ch.40

Anyway, we don't know that he CAN'T channel the True Power either, so why dismiss SH as a possible candidate for the task?

 

No, i mean that we don't know that he can channel the True Power. He describes no weaves, speaks of no sense of drawing upon a power source. Myrrdraal have other gifts, and he is special in that way too, so yes, we don't know the source of his power, and cannot theorize upon it.

 

Quote from: Luckers on March 31, 2008, 06:57:02 PM

As for freeing or killing her.  Slayer could do it.  Any DF in Rand's camp could do it, although not without the risk of exposure.

 

Under Cadsuane's guard? I doubt it for both.

 

Cads has to sleep sometimes, and she drinks tea.

 

I didn't actually mean that she would be personally standing over the woman, I meant with her in charge. There are many who can personally stand guard, but with her mind involved i dont see many openings for assasination or jailbreaking.

 

And apart from the example given above by Rasta Asha'man, there is another one I do remember, where Shaidar Haran is present and a globe of black fire appears in the air, most likely emanating from him. That seems to me like channeling.

 

That is when Graendal is reigned in, and again there are no descriptions that specify channeling, just power. I mean, if we didn't know better the Myrdraal ability to travel in shadows, or sense channeling, or participate in converting people to the Shadow all sound like channeling--in that they are exceptional, and magical--but they arn't.

 

Now, back to Semihrage.  Slayer could track her down in TAR, (about which Cadsuane is, if I'm not mistaken, virtually clueless), step out, remove an a'dam or stab her through the heart with his trusty poisoned daggers, and step right back into TAR.  Elapsed time maybe 10 seconds.  We've seen him pull this little trick twice (once in the Stone and once in Far Madding)and I cannot truly see an effective counter against it.

 

The effective counter is that he can't track her down any more than he could track Rand and Nynaeve in Far Madding--he killed the wrong people. And yes there is another effective counter, have guards in the room with her. If he appears and gets wrapped in air, theres not much he can do. Not that i see that being nessasary. Rand, much less Cadsuane, is hardly likely to broadcast Semirhage's location.

 

 

 

 

[trakand_01]

And it wasnt even Slayer who tracked the 'wrong people' down in Far Madding - he met what he was pretty sure was a man whom he thought of as 'his sponsor for the moment' whom he couldnt look at properly. Not like a grey man, slimy and cold as he refers to them, but his eyes simply slid off this figure. It was this man who opened the doorway from Tel'aran'Rhiod into the waking world and slayer went through to kill 'his nephew and the wench' (Rand and Min) - we see him change to Luc shortly before he goes through.

 

Even when we first meet Slayer, in the Wolf Dream, he doesnt accurately find Perrin. It is only when Perrin is in the wide open that he is able to attack him, he doesnt know exactly where he is otherwise.

 

I'm also not sure what level of expertise Slayer has in T'A'R. I'm not disputing that he knows it well, but he is there in the flesh, IIRC, not the dream. When Luc is seen watching Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene (there is a BA sister behind a column and an 'unseen watcher' in an ante room at the back) after Elayne has been poisoned, he literally runs away - RJ contrasts that strongly with the way in which Egwene takes herself to the doorway he left through - she simply 'thinks' herself there, beating Elayne to it. They can still hear his footsteps.

 

Would a man free to use T'A'R to track people down run away, or would he simply think himself elsewhere?

 

Slayer is an assassin, yes, but he needs someone else to point him in the right direction and open doorways for him.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think Shaidar does channel the True Power. I assumed that Shaidar used physical force as often as it did is because it would be way more degrading to a channeller. It blocks them from the Source, making them feel as helpless as they are, and then uses physical force as there is no way they could do anything about it. If it always used its powers then the punished could almost think "he still had to channel" or whatever the word is for it.

 

Also, note that Shaidar raped at least two Forsaken-was it Moghedien and Cyndane? or Graendal? Or who? I forget. The point is, though, that all the ones he has physically handled are women, and as a general rule manhandling a woman is worse than manhandling a man for obvious reasons. I think Shaidar will use different measures to punish depending on who is being punished. I certainly dont see it raping Demandred if he falls into Ba'alzamons bad books, and it definitely wont be punishing Moridin.

[Mr Ares]

Lickers? I don't usually do that without being bought dinner first, lol.

Dinner? From what I hear, one drink and you're anyones.

[Luckers]

And it wasnt even Slayer who tracked the 'wrong people' down in Far Madding - he met what he was pretty sure was a man whom he thought of as 'his sponsor for the moment' whom he couldnt look at properly. Not like a grey man, slimy and cold as he refers to them, but his eyes simply slid off this figure. It was this man who opened the doorway from Tel'aran'Rhiod into the waking world and slayer went through to kill 'his nephew and the wench' (Rand and Min) - we see him change to Luc shortly before he goes through.

 

Actually the change is done in transit--its part of the method. And Slayer himself steps out of TAR, it was not done by his sponser. And, in point of fact, its never stated who directed him to that room--he doesn't meet his sponser until after he kills the two.

 

But the clear point is, and in this i very much agree with trakand, Slayer cannot trace people in TAR--if he could, he wouldn't have killed the two randoms.

 

I think Shaidar does channel the True Power. I assumed that Shaidar used physical force as often as it did is because it would be way more degrading to a channeller. It blocks them from the Source, making them feel as helpless as they are, and then uses physical force as there is no way they could do anything about it. If it always used its powers then the punished could almost think "he still had to channel" or whatever the word is for it

 

Well, again making the Source disapear is not a channeling function of shielding, so again we have a divergence.

 

I simply don't see enough to suggest he channels. He certainly has supernatural abilities, but in this world channeling is simply not the only explanation.

 

Also, note that Shaidar raped at least two Forsaken-was it Moghedien and Cyndane? or Graendal? Or who? I forget. The point is, though, that all the ones he has physically handled are women, and as a general rule manhandling a woman is worse than manhandling a man for obvious reasons. I think Shaidar will use different measures to punish depending on who is being punished. I certainly dont see it raping Demandred if he falls into Ba'alzamons bad books, and it definitely wont be punishing Moridin.

 

Why is manhandling a woman worse than manhandling a man? I'm fairly sure it would serve as much of a highly effective punishment to rape Demandred as it was to rape Moghedian. And why wouldn't Shaidar Haren rape a man who went wrong--he's already shown that as his normal methodology...?

 

Lickers? I don't usually do that without being bought dinner first, lol.

Dinner? From what I hear, one drink and you're anyones.

 

You've clearly only been talking to the insanely good looking.

[Rasta Ashaman]

I still don't see why SH couldn't be the one to do that (free and/or kill) - we don't know that he can't channel, as well as that he can, so it's safe to make (afraid I'll have to use the local 'f' word) an assumption that he does have that ability, right? He can travel (and/or Travel) back and forth from Shayol Ghul, no one can sense his presence until it might be too late, he can take passengers for that ride to SG - so why not? One of the reasons against him might be that it would be pretty lame for RJ/BS, but nonetheless, there's a min 1% chance that SH can and will do it.

 

And Alviarin is a Darkfriend too, and has been to Shayol Ghoul personally, and 'bathed in the dark Ones presense'. That still speaks to a pre-existing connection.

 

When did that (SG trip) happen? Don't have all the e-books with me now, but as far as I remember, Alviarin only thought that SH was the Great Lord himself, and that he marked her, but that was in the WT, no?

 

 

Quote from: Luckers on March 31, 2008, 06:57:02 PM

I didn't actually mean that she would be personally standing over the woman, I meant with her in charge. There are many who can personally stand guard, but with her mind involved i dont see many openings for assasination or jailbreaking.

 

Well, 'to err is human' works in all Ages, and SuperCads and her team are only human. And, who knows, maybe the DFs will finally be smart enough to join forces successfully - we don't know if there's any other DF at Rand's court apart from Elza and her Warder, that can guide either Slayer or SH.

 

 

[Luckers]

I still don't see why SH couldn't be the one to do that (free and/or kill) - we don't know that he can't channel, as well as that he can, so it's safe to make (afraid I'll have to use the local 'f' word) an assumption that he does have that ability, right? He can travel (and/or Travel) back and forth from Shayol Ghul, no one can sense his presence until it might be too late, he can take passengers for that ride to SG - so why not? One of the reasons against him might be that it would be pretty lame for RJ/BS, but nonetheless, there's a min 1% chance that SH can and will do it.

 

He travels by shadow, theres no indication that he can take travellers, as a Myrrdraal he might well be detectable, and we don't yet know if his abilities are strong enough to stand in open fight with a channeler who is not bound to the Shadow.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 12:58:17 AM

And Alviarin is a Darkfriend too, and has been to Shayol Ghoul personally, and 'bathed in the dark Ones presense'. That still speaks to a pre-existing connection.

 

When did that (SG trip) happen? Don't have all the e-books with me now, but as far as I remember, Alviarin only thought that SH was the Great Lord himself, and that he marked her, but that was in the WT, no?

 

Fain speaks of his experiences in Shayol Goul in tFoH, and Alviarin lets him go because she recognises those experiences.

 

Well, 'to err is human' works in all Ages, and SuperCads and her team are only human. And, who knows, maybe the DFs will finally be smart enough to join forces successfully - we don't know if there's any other DF at Rand's court apart from Elza and her Warder, that can guide either Slayer or SH

 

No, but we can assume it given those involved with holding Semirhage prisoner. Yes its possible for a slip up, but that requires that the author present that, which directly speaks against Bob's comment reguarding it being stupid to assume that Semirhage would survive at all.

 

I'm sorry, but it all requires too much assumption.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Yes, no free rides with SH - I just thought Shaidar Haran took Moggy to SG, but she skimmed herself.

 

As for

Fain speaks of his experiences in Shayol Goul in tFoH, and Alviarin lets him go because she recognises those experiences.

the only reply from Alviarin to Fains' description is “I have heard of . . . ” - doesn't sound like "I've seen it myself" at all. And we've never seen Alviarin reminisce (AFAIR) on that trip in all of her PoVs - don't you think that such a major event would've come up at least once in at least one PoV?

 

But I'll let you assume that she made that trip - if you let me assume SH can wield TP, OK?  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

I asked a question.  I've made no comments about the thread topic, so far.

[Harmless Bandit]

The thing is, Shaidar Haran is a special Fade. I don't know whether Fades can channel, though they seem to have an affinity to the Power, I forget how that came to be.

 

And I don't know whether SH is a mini-me of the Dark One, but it's obvious the latter put some effort into creating him. Obviously he (the DO) wanted someone else he could depend on other than his not so trustworthy minions. The True Power can be channeled in this world despite the DO being 'imprisoned'. If Fades could channel, then I don't see why the DO would not take an opportunity to 'turn it on' in SH.

And even if they can't, I can see him trying to bring it about. Now, SH may have some special abilities that have nothing to do with channeling, but so far what we've seen can pass for channeling.

 

One can argue that the lack of mention of weaves does not necessarily mean that channeling is not involved.

[trakand_01]

And I don't know whether SH is a mini-me of the Dark One, but it's obvious the latter put some effort into creating him.

 

I love you Mini-me, you complete me  :D