Languages

[Rahlian]

That didn't mean that they could hear the language evolve

[Graendals favourite]

Yes it did:

Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

You notice some of particularly Lanfear's slip of speaking old words as Selene. The Forsaken sometimes use somewhat less usual words when speaking to Randlanders. (While Mat or someone else speaking the Old Tongue can be recognised as slightly unusual phrasings and word orders: "That I did indeed do" he might say).

[bRANDan]

The Common Tongue is referred to as the "Vulgar Tongue" in CoS Chapter 41, I believe it's Mat's PoV from one of his "memories".

 

Vulgar - crude, coarse, unrefined

 

I've always seen the Common Tongue as an unrefined version of the Old Tongue. It would be like a Master Cabinetmaker being dropped into the position of an everyday Framer, even without any prior knowledge of the trade it would be easily picked up.

[dubz]

Thanks RJ! That was exactly the answer I was looking for.

Where are these "weekly questions?" It seems that I may have to peruse these before starting a new topic.

 

also, how do you know what their script looks like?  Was this another of the weekly questions.

 

also, its great that the translation to English of this common tongue rhymes so well or the songs and prophecies would sound like shit...convenient?

 

also, i thought the finns spoke the old tongue or else how could mat and  moiraine understand them and Rand try to translate what they say?

 

one last question... luck is the English word, would "dovienya" be how the English luck is pronounced in the old tongue?  but we don't know how Mat would actually say luck, right?

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

Wotmania has the questions gathered in their faq, as well as other answers by RJ (see section 5).

 

For what it is worth, the script could be seen in some of the discontinued New Spring comics, and it was obviously not latin. But this is most natural, our age (where channelling is unknown but the Dark One still remembered etc)  will come at some point and it is not very likely that english or latin alhpabets should develop twice and then evolve into something else.

 

On the songs and prophecies, well I actually think that one thing the translator can do is to put the translation of a song or poem into measure or make it rhyme, it may be somewhat at the expense of accuracy but if you are skilled at translating such you can get the form pretty well, you of course need to know both languages extremely well. For example, here are translation of Kalevala, where while staying true to what is said, somehow the mood and style are kept as well as the measure of 8 syllables per line. But, yes, RJ did understandably have quite a free hand  ;).

 

Ah, but that they speak to Randlanders. Actually, to men anyway, since Moiraine said they speak a harsh version of the Old Tongue to men, and Rand accounted that they brought in a translator that spoke like an old book, an old version of the Vulgar. But since they speak different languages to different people, it is natural that they have their own that they speak amongst themselves.

 

But RJ has included some pronunciation rules or guides for the Old Tongue. (in the glossaries). I believe I have seen some linguistically oriented people have an idea how for example 'dovienya' is  pronounced. This is probably because english is a language where you don't really have all that many pronounciation rules, rather only exceptions and exceptions of exceptions. But yes, pronouncing dovienya correctly (in english but with RJ's rules included) you should arrive at the correct sounds.