why the Seals failed..

[rogue5]

Hat tip to Duggadugga, the Twice marked thread is what put this in my head.

 

The reason that the seals are failing is because the seals were created by just men. That is why the pairing of AS and AM is important, thats what it took to Clense the male half. We have seen a few instances that when working together using both sides of the source can accomplish great things. I think that was LTT's failure, he couldn't get the women onboard so all he was able to do is buy time instead of resealing the DO. In order for Rand to properly seal the bore is by destorying the existing seals and fixing it properly useing both sides of the Source. Sorry in advance if this has been talked about, it has just been a while since I had an idea though out enough to post (blame the kids :roll: )

[Smoosh]

AS and AM?

 

 

I think the Creator needs to step in and fix everything again. Sure he hasn't done much (read: anything at all), but i assume that he is the only one who can operate easily and without mistakes in whereever the DO is sealed. LTT tried, but failed. And even if he had the other half of the Power, I don't think he would have made it all ok again. The Power isn't the beat all and end all. The DO is probably immune to it, in the end. Everything except balefire. Somehting tells me balefire is too bada$s to be stopped by anything. Even Matt's amulet.

[Kaznen]

I've had a theory for a while now. Each of the seals acted as kind of an anchor point set up around the bore. Then using Saidin the AS men made a "rope" that connected each seal to the other six.

 

I drew this on a piece of paper once. I forget how many lines I had, but I don't think it was 42.

 

After the network of webs was set the men then tightened the net down pulling the bore closed and sealing the DO and forsaken in it. But as each seal broke the net loosened making it easier for the DO to touch the world and Forsaken to escape.

[Luckers]

Actually a web woven should hold indefinately without influence. Therefore, since we have no evidence that a web woven of both saidin and saidar is in any way stronger against the influence of the dark one we must conclude that the dark ones influence is what cause the dissolution of the seals. For the time being at least.

 

That being said a major point of RJ is that men and women are strongest when working together... I certainly dont think the Creator would involve himself in anyway... A) It would completely invalidate Rand, and B) It expreses a certain christian ideological base... and RJ is Masonic... The creator, indeed, fits very well with Masonic ideology... i dont see it happening.

[Kaznen]

There is no eveidence if a web using both powers would work better.

 

I was thinking of the power web being one single piece of rope threaded through the seals x times.

 

The seals are "focus points" of what the men did. This was confirmed by several AS. And the heartstone is the strongest thing humans can make. But not stronger then the DO. Ishy commented to LTT about LTT's pride thinking he could match the creator.

 

And such a weave wouldn't be permanent. The "standing" weaves used in AoL for things like the OP cell phones and T.V. failed without the DO's intervention. And the Wards in the WT against Shadow eyes are also failing. And these were most likely done by a ring of 13. These wards would be stronger then the men's SG weaves.

[Inara]

i have a zen answer to this...

 

it is time for the DO's power to be waxing and the seals to fail...so that the dargon can fulfill the prophesies.

[Luckers]

Ah, but the wards on TV shouldn't have failed, and have indeed only started failing since the seals have begun failing. There is a direct correlation between the decline of the wards holding and the influence of the Dark One, and from that we can draw that the Dark One's influence has a somewhat accidic effect on the power... which would explain why the seals eventually failed. The dark one is chaos, and paradox. We've seen how his influence disrupts the laws of nature, and the one power is bound by certain laws that are doubtlessly being just as effected.

 

It actually has a strong backing philosophicall and in physics. A universe is a set state until an external force asserts its power, which would create a cascade effect of the laws of nature coming undone... and isn't that what we've been seeing?

 

As for the standing weaves, we have no knowledge of why they died... it might be they failed with the dark ones influence last time, or that they were cut in the course of the war of power. We know that much of the technological base of that society was gone by the end of the war... Indeed, it would make sense of break standing weaves and make it dificult for your enemy...

[Kaznen]

I'm not saying that the ward itself is failing. Going back to my rope theroy...

 

The seals served as the anchor points for the Saidin rope. The DO has been trying to break through the net ever since he was sealed. Going that heartstone is the most powerful humans can make, it would take time to undo them.

 

Now, as the DO broke the seals using his power the rope, losing an anchor, loosened. Think of staking a rope down over some crates. As a stake comes undone the rope is still there but not as secure as it was.

 

Given that this saidin rope was threaded through each anchor six time, and now there are only three left, and those hanging on by a thumbnail, the DO is able to reach an arm and part of his head, figuratively speaking, out of the bore (i.e. Shadar Harden(?) ) This gives him more power to effect the world then when there were four anchors (the fourth being the seal Nyneave and Elyane found in Tanchico) when he could just stop the weather.

[Luckers]

But the ward IS failing... It shouldn't be, but it is... Thats not to say your theory about how the seals work isn't true, but that if saidar were involved it wouldn't nessasarily work any better... the one power, and anything bound by the laws of the universe seem to suffer under the dark ones presense.

[rogue5]

Sorry I started the thread then didn't get back..

 

interesting ideas all, I think the seals just became corrupted by the taint. If LLT had women while sealing the bore the DO would not have been able to make is counter stoke. We have already seen the taint removed from Sadin, with that done there is a very high limit to what both sides can do when working together. So between the taint and the DO own pushing and straining at an already weak point it was just a matter of time before the seals failed. In some ways it is kinda (very loosely kinda!) like when Rand was in the box and began to work at each of the knots in his shield except that the DO had the help of the fact that the taint was slowly eating away at the seals threw Sadin. Having both sides involved in the sealing might have prevented the taint at most or at least would have reinforced the seal so that the whole thing wouldn't fall apart just by Sadin failing and the DO pushing. As for the wards failing in TV, just think about it there are Black Sisters all over on both sides of the river. If the food starts to rot the seige can't countinue they have to fight and that is exactly what the Lord of Chaos wants. Sisters against Sisters so they are distracted and exauhsted when the real threat comes!

 

Sorry for the long post..

[Jellybelly]

Well, I distinctly remember RJ saying that if Saidar also had been channeled at the sealing of the Bore, that would have been tainted as well.

[Luckers]

I seem to remember something along that line as well, though i can't place where.

[Luckers]

I seem to remember something along that line as well, though i can't place where.

[Angel28]

Hi I'm new btw havn't gotten a chance to post on the Newvbie boards was just looking around, and thought I would put my two cent's in here really fast. First off the Seals. I think the problem is that the seals or more correctly the fucal points of the seals (anchors) are physical objects. This gave the Dark one something to attack and I'm sure you began attacking those seals seconds after being imprisioned. Know that eventually with enough time he would be able to break them. With enough time and pressure 3 thousand years worth of pressure even Cuendillar would begin to weaken. LTT did not really reseal the bore he just put a patch over it. What needs to be done is that the origanal Seal that the creator made needs to be remade. The Creator being "All Knowing" so to speak probably made the seal so it could be redone by mortals. Essentail I believe that is what will need to be done the origanal seal on the Dark One's prison will have to be remade some how it will be interesting to see how that will be done in the last book.

That's my two cent's anyway

[Luckers]

Well the problem is that energy and matter are interchangeable, something that RJ has ascribed to with the power--remember he has backing in physics. In any case, in a closed system, energy is just as tangible as the matter. The physicality of the seals doesn't make them more easily attacked then the one power aspect. Especially when we are talking about a non-coporial entity. A seal of any form would potentiall be attackable to the dark one.

 

Remember too, that the Creator did not place a seal over a bore... the creator made the pattern. There was no bore at the begining of this kulpas (turning of the wheel, in eastern philosophy), and likely when the next starts reality will be destroyed and remade, so again it won't be an issueing of patching.

 

Also, there is no evidence to suggest the Creator is 'all-knowing'. It seems a common mistake to think of him in the mode of the Judeo-christian god, when in fact the Wheel of Time holds more of an eastern ideological basis. In eastern philosophy 'gods' are merely creatures higher on the karmic scale, and given when we've seen of the Creator and the Dark One, they fit much better with this conception, particularily in the Creators lack of involvement, and the lack of religious doctrine in Randland... what exists is more of a philosophy about the nature of living, the cycle of rebirth and the cyclical nature of time.

[weeping anchor]

Wow. Good/deep thoughts.

 

A couple of idle thoughts to add to the pot.

 

Power Failure

The power itself could be failing. At some point in the cycle (our reality, with Merk and Mosk and Elsbeth the wise), people can't channel. It needs to be "discovered". So it needs to be lost/forgotton. Might be starting now. Don't like this idea as it means most of Egwene's long term plans (and boy do we like her from the last book!!) are for nought, but its possible.

 

The Dark One's influence:

Changes the material properties of the Cuendillar seals

Fixes winter in place for EofTW

Fixes Summer in place for TSR, FoH, LoC, CoS.

Undermines the keepings

Undermines the anti-rodent and anti-raven wards in the tower

Creates world wide spoilage at a major rate for all food

 

The DO is trying to either

a) redcue numbers of his opposition for when he breaks out

b) kill the world

c) weaken all channelling

 

In philosophical terms, the DO cannot tolerate the existance of the pattern/reality, so the "Chosen" are gullible fools, and the goal is ENTROPY, the destruction of what the DOs opponent built, to be replaced by a large amount of NOTHING. This was the mist/realit6y rippling seen in KoD by everyone, the DO flexing his "rip the pattern apart" muscles.

[Dragonsworn]

Here's how I see it:

The seals are just that...seals.

Back when Lanfear had a real name, she found a weak spot in the pattern where the AS of the time could tap into the TP. That's when the DO escaped.

LTT and the men plugged the hole with the seals...stacked one on top the other. Like so ()))))

Imagine the DO as a kind of evil acid corroding away at the seals..over time the seals weaken and the one behind it starts to weaken a little too (The first doesnt have to break completly...just weaken enough to let the acid touch the next seal.)

As the seals grow weaker, DO's touch becomes stronger.

Also, the DO sent the taint through as they were sealing, so it's reasonable to assume that the DO touch is also in the seals.

 

And I think after TG, the hole will be plugged without seals...like the way Lanfear found it.

[Luckers]

Except there was no hole that Lanfear found. She made one.

 

Weeping Anchor you make some interesting points, though i dont see channeling failing, i think the nature of the Dark One is corrosive to reality. Essentially he's placing a force on reality, and whilst a ward will last indefinately without having a force act on it, its not terribly resistant because weaves arn't acted upon by another force... except the dark one or other weaves.

[Hoop Snake]

I think the Creator needs to step in and fix everything again

The implication is that will happen, but not necessarily in this age. See Herid Fel's thoughts for that.

[Luckers]

I dont know about that being the implication... certainly when the wheel begins its turn again it will be whole because it hadn't been damaged yet, but im not certain that the Creator is going to step in to heal it before the Wheel ends... or rather, im not certain their is evidence of that. It may very well happen, but it isn't the implied event.

[Hoop Snake]

Well Fel had reasoned out a number of things, that being one of them. And his reasonings were dangerous enough to the Dark to warrant setting a gholam on him, so we can assume that he knew what he was on about.

[gubiaj]

The Creator stepping in and fixing everything has been implied throughout the whole series. According to every character at one point or another, "The Dark One and the Forsaken are bound, bound by the Creator at the moment of creation". So if time is truly a wheel, the Creator must be the one who binds the Dark One.

[loki redfern]

i was just thinking on the the web theory and it got me to thinking. originally the bore was covered by a piece of the pattern joined to all the rest ie no bore. now the pattern is made up of threads, which are peoples lives. so perhaps all the prophesys are to get the 'thread' or peoples lives woven in to the right place and this weaving a cover for the bore, made of essentially of the pattern. then rand's blood on shayol ghul is the trigger to cover it bore, which will just be like a part of the pattern and rand just needs to be there so his blood gets on the rocks and so he can 'push' the DO back out of the bore so it will close.

[Luckers]

No, it hasn't. nor has Fel been assuming that throughout the series. All that FEl has stated is that by the time the first and secon age (the age of legends) the bore must not be. Considering the nature of cyclical time, this only mean that at the cretion of each turning, everything is whole--not that the creator fixes things at any stage,

[Foxy_Sox]

Have we considered that perhaps Lanfear didn't make the original hole into the prison in her search for the true power? Perhaps the white floating ball (wasn't it? Its been a while) was the patch put there before, and similar to the one that Rand (presumably) will create.

 

On a similar note, perhaps Rand is the Creator in the sense that, working backwards, anyone who can seal the Dark One in Shayol Ghul, must in fact be the Creator, since: "The Dark One and the Forsaken are bound, bound by the Creator at the moment of creation". When the DO breaks free, it will in a sense destroy the world, thus when Rand imprisons him once again he is, in effect, re-creating the world.

 

In any event, before you all pass out from laughing at me... remember the precedent set by Egwene's ascent to the Amyrlin Seat: She was not Aes Sedai until she became Amyrlin, the Amyrlin being Aes Sedai. Rand is not the Creator until he seals the DO, the one who seals the Dark One being the Creator. Well it made sense in my head, I just haven't explained it clearly. :cry: