To live you must die

[rd2000]

Why do you insist on saying the pattern will rupture? There is nothing saying that. I doubt the age-lace is that easily unwoven, or torn. Every time balefire is used, it burns a thread from the age-lace and it was used a lot in the beginning of the war of shadow.

[Kaznen]

Why do you insist on saying the pattern will rupture? There is nothing saying that. I doubt the age-lace is that easily unwoven' date=' or torn. Every time balefire is used, it burns a thread from the age-lace and it was used a lot in the beginning of the war of shadow.[/quote']

 

In LoC Demadred(?) thought about how the pattern almost unraveled because of the over use of balefire.

 

Balefire doesn't just effect the one thread burned out. It has a ripple effect reversing time.

 

Say Rand balefires Jo Darkfriend back a few hours:

 

Everything Jo Darkfriend did didn't happen. And everything someone else did during those few hours becasue of the what the darkfriend did didn't happen either. So if during that time he rented a room and bought a meal, it didn't happen. Maybe by some accident he held up traffic and during that time a stampeed ran in front of him, well he wouldn't have held up traffic after balefire and now several people are dead. And everything the people who are now dead did no longer happened.

[rd2000]

I perfectly understand the ripple effect backwards in time of using balefire. I was using the over-use of balefire in the war of shadow to show the age-lace is not so fragile.

[Inara]

i too, dont think that it is a neccesary that the heros of the horn either bollow the banner or the dragon.

IMO the heros follow the hornblower, light or dark, the are bound to the horn, not the dragon. however, the dragon was there in this instance, and is a natural leader to the heros, also,the hornblower followed the dragon too.

the banner is for showbiz

the heros are bound to the wheel, not the light, so why is it such a stretch that they may be for the dark? the heros who have not been spun out already are the ones who answer the call of the horn, who's to say mat and perrin are heros of the horn too...they are very stongly taveren and were born into a very influential position in the pattern.

 

the only condition for the horn actually relates to TG. the horn will make an appearance...that is all.

[Kaznen]

I perfectly understand the ripple effect backwards in time of using balefire. I was using the over-use of balefire in the war of shadow to show the age-lace is not so fragile.

 

:shock: But it is! Both sides stopped using it without any kind of treaty. And whole cities were destroy with Balefire. When one of the forsaken hears the word "Balefire" they go pale. Mo almost had a stroke when she saw Rand using Balefire. Asomdean almost wet himself when he saw the after effects of balefire.

 

But imagine the ripple effect if 2.4 million people were killed by balefire. That's 2.4 million sources for time going BACKWARDS! Time wasn't meant to go backwards, just forward.

 

With the Choden Kal Rand could, literally, balefire Demi or one of the other original Forsaken back to the Age of Legends. As cool as it would be the fact that everything said forsaken did for the past 4000 years would to drastically undo the tread of time. And as Mo said it is possible the pattern is no longer centered on Rand. It could be that doing that kind of Balefire could cause the shadow to win the war.

[rd2000]

But it isn't!!! :D Balefire was used commonly, and Randland is still there. Your missing my point. They might have prevented disaster by stopping the use of balefire. But, the age-lace survived and if it survived so much balefire use then, it can probably withstand similar abuse now. If it took that much abuse then, and survived (taterred as it must have been, creation was still not undone) it can probably handle Bob's "rupture" of the pattern by the Horn being used by DF.

[Kaznen]

But it isn't!!! :D Balefire was used commonly' date=' and Randland is still there. Your missing my point. They might have prevented disaster by stopping the use of balefire. But, the age-lace survived and if it survived so much balefire use then, it can probably withstand similar abuse now. If it took that much abuse then, and survived (taterred as it must have been, creation was still not undone) it can probably handle Bob's "rupture" of the pattern by the Horn being used by DF.[/quote']

 

It BARELY survived. Balefire wasn't used before the War of Power, why would it, and reality was ALMOST unraveled before they suddenly and without treaty, truce, or aggreement stopped using Balefire.

 

If there were no dangerously harmful side effects to balefire they wouldn't have stopped.

 

If there were no harmful side effects to nuclear weapons the US would have nuked the USSR back to the stone age in the 1950's before the USSR had its own nuclear arsenal.

[rd2000]

This is ridiculous. I am not saying they didn't nearly undue reality. What part of my above post is unclear? Are we having a debate or agreeing with each other using different words? Please, please read WHY I posted.

 

After that, tell me why a few uses of balefire can even come close to damaging the age-lace, or pattern on the same scale that was done in the War of Shadow?

 

I am not arguing that balefire does not do damage to the pattern, and the HABIT of using it can be disastrous as far as actions and events "unwinding" so to speak. But we have seen Rand balefire a Forsaken with everything he had, and the world didn't end. Moiraine even used it against darkhounds.

(I probably just started a debate about whether or not she used balefire or something else against the darkhounds, but I don't care)

 

My point in my posts on this topic has been that the pattern is more resilient than fragile and it takes more than just a few balefires to damage it enough to undo creation. I know all the fears that have been said in the books, but the facts of actions have shown us that many of those fears are based on ages-old teachings that have been proven to be less than accurate in the past.

[Kaznen]

This is ridiculous. quote]

 

No your ridiculous.

[Smoosh]

How did this thread go from Rand's 2nd death to the Horn to balefire?

 

 

 

 

Ok, here's the deal. Balefire = powerful. Maybe powerful enough to burn the Pattern. We don't know. There are several hints that we have in the series, but we don't know, becuase the people in Randland don't want to mess with their world in that way. Therefore.....moot point.

 

 

 

So....umm.......Rand dies 2x? wtf?

[rd2000]

I am still unsure of exactly WHAT Kaznen's point is.

[Smoosh]

It doesnt matter. Drop it. You both won. Move on. Back to the original topic. How will Rand die 2x?

[Kaznen]

Move on.

 

No, you move on. :twisted:

[Blademaster]

so, back to Rand's death... i think it was Winespring Brother who mention the Morirand theory on the first page? Why have I never heard this theory? if it's right that would be awesome! For Rand anyways. Moridin might not enjoy it.

 

oh wait... Moridin's body DOES have a side effect: the saa.

 

anyways, i have no point, just a question: can this theory actually work? is there a possibility or is it more likely that Rand will outright die?

[Blademaster]

so, back to Rand's death... i think it was Winespring Brother who mention the Morirand theory on the first page? Why have I never heard this theory? if it's right that would be awesome! For Rand anyways. Moridin might not enjoy it.

 

oh wait... Moridin's body DOES have a side effect: the saa.

 

anyways, i have no point, just a question: can this theory actually work? is there a possibility or is it more likely that Rand will outright die?

[rd2000]

Min had a viewing of Rand. She told him she saw two men, one of them was him and one was not, they seemed to merge and one of them died. At the time, Rand was happy and believed it was proof he was not insane and that LTT was real. We now know that viewing most likely was Moridin, not LTT as Rand thought.

[gubiaj]

The second man in Min's viewing could still be Lews Therin for two reasons: 1) Lews Therin is the Dragon, and Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Since the prophecies differentiate between the two and the only one concerning death that doesn't just say 'him' (that I know of) is the one that says "the Dragon's blood on the rocks of Shayol Gul will save mankind from the Shadow." The Dragon's blood, not the Dragon Reborn. 2) The ambuguity of the Aelfinn's answer to Rand's question. I don't exactly remember, but it was something like "if you wish to live, you must die." The ambiguity rests in the word "you". If two people were standing next to each other "you" could refer to either one of them. Since Rand and Lews Therin are in the same body, "you" could refer to either of them. So, the Aelfinn could have been saying "If you(Rand al'thor) wish to live, you(Lews Therin) must die."

[rd2000]

Very well put. But it could also mean..."If you(Rand) wish to live, you(Moridin) must die"

 

:twisted:

[bcxanth]

Very well put. But it could also mean..."If you(Rand) wish to live' date=' you(Moridin) must die"[/quote']Except that Rand was linked to Moridin after the incident in SL, which was long after Rand's trip through the doorway. So even if they were refering to two different people (which I doubt) they still wouldn't have been referring to Moridin.

[Samitsu]

Very well put. But it could also mean..."If you(Rand) wish to live' date=' you(Moridin) must die"

 

:twisted:[/quote']

 

or it could mean "If you(Rand) wish to live, you(Bela) must die"

[Lui2692]

Rand could seperate from Lewis Therin in Dream World, or The Dark Ones twisting in Shayol Gul could pull them apart Lewis Therin will die because he has been begging for it forever this will absolve him of his crimes in the breaking and rand will live on completly healthy because with Lewis Therin's Death all of the taint and holes and missing hands wil go with him to the grave. Since there is only one dragon's soul being weeved into the pattern the existance of two dragons in one body is a contradiction to the pattern that must be righted. Im sure Moridin will die but he is the dragons enemy and a conduit to the dark one. Therefore his death will not make the shadow go away because he is not the one re-sealing the dark ones prison.

[Aviendha]

My take on it is that Rand & Moridin will exchange bodies at the culmination of some major struggle. Rand's body will be on it's last legs (so to speak) because of the beating it takes at this point and the suffering before (two wounds etc). Moridin (in Rand's body) will be stuck with LTT. Moridin & therefore LTT (in Rand's body) will die due to the wounds he has received. Rand (in Moridin's body) goes on to do what must be done. Rand survives (in Moridin's body) & can now live on in peace because no one (who doesn't need to know) knows who he is.

[dacovale]

Two questions / points:

 

1) The Legend of the Horn says that he (she) who blow the horn first is the only one who can call the heroes until that person dies. Well, Mat blew the horn at the end of the Great Hunt, but was hanged in a subsequent book. Does that mean that the Horn is now available for anyone to blow?

 

2) If we accept the theory that Rand is a Hero of the Horn, than the prophecy "To live you must die" makes more sense. The prophecy implies that Rand must die to defeat the Dark One. By doing so, the pattern survives and continues, thus allowing Rand to be reborn in another age as a new person. If Rand lives in the last battle, thus not defeating the DO (maybe even joining him or being captured as a pet), the pattern is destroyed and the Heroes of the Horn no longer are spun out.

[ono-neko]

1) The Legend of the Horn says that he (she) who blow the horn first is the only one who can call the heroes until that person dies. Well' date=' Mat blew the horn at the end of the Great Hunt, but was hanged in a subsequent book. Does that mean that the Horn is now available for anyone to blow?[/quote']

 

The question is "Did Mat really die?". As proven from modern medical advances, when a person stops breathing or the heart stops beating, it doesn't mean that he/she is dead. Usually a doctor won't pronounce the patient dead until they do CPR or using that electrical machine to zap the patient. Most of the time CPR works and bring the "almost dead" person back to life, as well the electrical surge does too. I think Rand basically just gave Mat CPR and get Mat back before his body really stopped functioning.

[Kadere]

If we were going to ask this question a better place to ask it would be after Mat was killed by the lightning in Fires of Heaven. It is clear that he DID die there, but then balefire was used to bring him back. That was his "To die and live again" part. BUT since the balefire reversed that death, I believe the Horn would still work for him, and him alone.