Ta'veren - a very clever idea!

[trakand_01]

So i was thinking the other day, about Elyas actually. I was reading the thread on his history and thinking about the fact that he

 

a) taught lan

b) killed 2 other warders during his flight

 

and that got me to thinking; Lan is supposed to be one of 'the best of the best' warders. And Elyas taught him, which makes him just as good, if not better.

 

So then I thought 'how coincidental that Perrin just happened across him' during his travels, as if that would happen in real life.

 

The answer? Ta'veren.

 

then I got to thinking about other coincidental things in the story, like Mat just happening to fall in love with Tuon, high up in the Seanchan, who Rand needs. Ta'veren, and Rand having a blademaster for a father who happened to teach him about the Void before he even left Emonds Field; ta'veren.

 

I reasoned out that the ta'veren thing was actually a very clever move on RJ's part because for practically every thing which we could say "and how coincidental is THAT?!", the answer is ta'veren...

 

Saves a lot of cynicism, incredulity and scoffing.

[Majsju]

I can agree with Perrin meeting Elyas being due to ta'veren.

 

Mat marrying Tuon though, that was prophecised. Ta'veren or not, eventually that would happen.

 

And Rand did not become ta'veren until shortly before Moiraine showed up in the Two Rivers, so he picked up the void before that.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I reasoned out that the ta'veren thing was actually a very clever move on RJ's part because for practically every thing which we could say "and how coincidental is THAT?!", the answer is ta'veren

UNQUOTE

 

Indeed, I have had the same thought myself. ANYTHING that seems too coincedential, if Rand, Mat or Perrin are involved (or even near in Rands case) can be put down to Ta'veren. It gave RJ tons of leeway. I also like it how he put in the non-important Ta'veren effects, such as people falling from towers and not being hurt, two people trying to sidestep around each other but continuously stepping to the same side, the roof tile that was blown onto the next street through a window and ended up killing someone, all these little things make the bigger seem more possible because the Ta'veren twist is mentioned so often.

A very good writing tool indeed

 

[Darth_Andrea]

And Rand did not become ta'veren until shortly before Moiraine showed up in the Two Rivers, so he picked up the void before that.

 

 

Not exactly, Rand has always been Ta`veren, even before he was born he was pulling threads in the pattern. Look at everything that had to fall into place for Tam to find him and tell me that wasn't Ta`veren work.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]               

[Guest Dreadlord]

Thats an interesting idea Darth Andrea, but I disagree. How can someone be Ta'veren if they dont exist yet? Also, Im sure RJ said the boys werent born Ta'veren, they became it? I can see where your coming from though

[Majsju]

Noone is born ta'veren, and RJ stated that Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.

 

That said, it is of course quite possible that one or a few others were ta'veren for a short time to set the things in motion that lead to Tam finding Rand on Dragonmount. I would for example not be surprised to learn that Laman, or someone close to him was ta'veren for a short time, how else could he come up with such an insane idea as the one to chop down the one tree in the world that would make the Aiel come running?

[Guest Dreadlord]

I doubt Lamman was Ta'veren, the Aes Sedai would have mentioned it otherwise. And why would Lamman cutting down the tree bring Tam to Dragonmount? I dont think Tam was drawn to Rand through anything to do with Ta'veren myself, I think that is one of the few things that really WAS down to chance

[Majsju]

I doubt Lamman was Ta'veren, the Aes Sedai would have mentioned it otherwise. And why would Lamman cutting down the tree bring Tam to Dragonmount? I dont think Tam was drawn to Rand through anything to do with Ta'veren myself, I think that is one of the few things that really WAS down to chance

 

Had Laman not cut down the tree, the Aiel would never have left the Waste, and Rand would have been born in the Waste, not on Dragonmount as propecy says. Rand would have been born and raised as an Aiel.

 

And the Aes Sedai would not necessarily have noticed if Laman was ta'veren. Not all have the Talent to see ta'veren, and most ta'veren are not even remotely close to the strength we see Rand have, when his twisting chance can touch an entire city. And of courser, in Lamans case it could have been a matter of weeks, just long enough to make sure the Aiel left the waste.

[Davian93]

Noone is born ta'veren, and RJ stated that Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.

 

That said, it is of course quite possible that one or a few others were ta'veren for a short time to set the things in motion that lead to Tam finding Rand on Dragonmount. I would for example not be surprised to learn that Laman, or someone close to him was ta'veren for a short time, how else could he come up with such an insane idea as the one to chop down the one tree in the world that would make the Aiel come running?

 

I'm not 100% and I don't have access to most of my WoT resources at work, but I believe that Janduin (Rand's Aiel father) was ta'veren so that would take care of any twisting needed in the Pattern around Tar Valon during the Bloodsnow.  Besides fulfillment of Prophecy does not always require ta'veren effects to take place.

[Davian93]

Lan is supposed to be one of 'the best of the best' warders. And Elyas taught him, which makes him just as good, if not better

 

Not really.  Hammar taught Galad and Gawyn and Gawyn at least proved to be superior to him.  RJ said on several occasions that Lan is the most dangerous with a sword out of any of the assorted Blademasters we have running around (Lan, High Lord Turak, Galad, Eamon Valda, Gawyn, Rand, Toram Riatin, Tam, Hammar, the other Warder instructor,  possibly Aram before he was killed although he was probably a step below true Blademaster status)  I'm sure I'm missing a couple but Lan has always been regarded as the top in that particular skill.

[Dhaos]

for practically every thing which we could say "and how coincidental is THAT?!", the answer is ta'veren...

 

Saves a lot of cynicism, incredulity and scoffing.

 

Ta'veren- Old Tongue for "Deus Ex Machina."  ;)

 

It's a good trick, though, and RJ was very successful in integrating the idea into the world and explaining it.

[Kadere]

From RJ himself:

 

Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man. 

 

;)

[Bazzles]

I thought Tam finding Rand was also prophecy. I may be imagining things but I seem to remember quoting the prohecies and saying "Born of the ancient blood but raised of the old blood" or something like that.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I forgot about that. Saying that, prophecies don't usually refer to Ta'veren twists of chance, its usually events that are set in stone. The first nine Aes Sedai were made to kneel.

 

QUOTE from Lord of Chaos, Dumai's Wells, page 1006.

Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him. "Kneel and swear fealty to the Lord Dragon," he saif softly,n"or you will be knelt."

UNQUOTE

 

The other Aes Sedai swore fealty through Ta'veren twists, but the first were made to. Thats a good bit as well, just after Dumai's Wells. Taim had been waiting to say that since Rand told him to teach the soon-to-be-Ashaman.

[Harmless Bandit]

I do like the idea of ta'veren, though at times it can stretch things a bit beyond... believable.

 

Ultimately though, it comes down to the Wheel's will. Ta'veren can only sprout around at the Wheel's whim. I don't want to dabble into philosophy, but it kinda makes me wonder about what Randlanders think about free will and stuff.

 

 

[Luckers]

The other Aes Sedai swore fealty through Ta'veren twists, but the first were made to. Thats a good bit as well, just after Dumai's Wells. Taim had been waiting to say that since Rand told him to teach the soon-to-be-Ashaman.

 

The other Aes Sedai swore fealty because Verin compelled them to.

[Kadere]

and the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells gave their oath to Rand in large part due to his Ta'veraness. Which is why they spend the next book wondering how he'd gotten them to do that. It had very little if anything to do with Taim's threat.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

and the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells gave their oath to Rand in large part due to his Ta'veraness. Which is why they spend the next book wondering how he'd gotten them to do that. It had very little if anything to do with Taim's threat

UNQUOTE

 

Go to the page I had indicated in Lord of Chaos and read that bit. There is no way they swear because of a Ta'veren twist. Taim ordered them to after the Ashaman tore the Shaido to pieces litterally. After watching that they would have sworn to pretty much anything-theres no way thta was a Ta'veren twist

[Guest durram laddel cham]

The other Aes Sedai swore fealty through Ta'veren twists, but the first were made to. Thats a good bit as well, just after Dumai's Wells. Taim had been waiting to say that since Rand told him to teach the soon-to-be-Ashaman.

 

The other Aes Sedai swore fealty because Verin compelled them to.

 

all of them? I thougt only Elza was compelled.

[Luckers]

All of them. We only see Beldeine compelled, but the inference is made more than clear.

 

Go to the page I had indicated in Lord of Chaos and read that bit. There is no way they swear because of a Ta'veren twist. Taim ordered them to after the Ashaman tore the Shaido to pieces litterally. After watching that they would have sworn to pretty much anything-theres no way thta was a Ta'veren twist

 

You're right, theres no way THAT was ta'veren twist, but the later chapters certainly carry inference. I agree with Kadere, there was ta'verenism involved, and it is specifically referred to. Additionally before you start unilateraly dismissing people positions you may want to read the series. I hear its helpful.

[RAND AL THOR]

I think this thread's going off topic. I thought this thread was supposed to discuss how great RJ's idea of ta'veren was. Indeed it is BRILLIANT. It's an idea that no author I know of has come across before. :P By introducing ta'veren practically all coincidences regarding rand, mat, perrin are cleanly explained as TA'VEREN! Excellent idea, possibly the best of all his ideas, because this book series requires the main character to expereience a lot of coincidences. Way to go RJ!  ;)

[trakand_01]

The genius of it to my mind, was that say RJ was at a conference, talking to the fans. Someone asks a question about something which was INCREDIBLY coincidental in the books, and RJ thinks to himself "bugger, i completely forgot about that... how can i explain it.....?" and magically has the ability to say "Ta'veren!!", everyone nods, satisfied and stops asking awkward questions.

[Guest Dreadlord]

One thing that I am gutted about though is that it isn't possible for there to be a Darkfriend Ta'veren. I know its possible to duplicate Ta'veren effects with the Power, but it doesn't seem the same. I would like it if someone of the Shadow was revealed to be the dark equivalent, t'would be good to see.

 

I want Moridin to duplicate the effects of Ta'veren when he and Rand fight. It'd be funny to see that in a film, just as Rand is about to strike Moridin things keep happening to make Rand miss

[Majsju]

One thing that I am gutted about though is that it isn't possible for there to be a Darkfriend Ta'veren. I know its possible to duplicate Ta'veren effects with the Power, but it doesn't seem the same. I would like it if someone of the Shadow was revealed to be the dark equivalent, t'would be good to see.

 

I want Moridin to duplicate the effects of Ta'veren when he and Rand fight. It'd be funny to see that in a film, just as Rand is about to strike Moridin things keep happening to make Rand miss

 

It is possible for darkfriends to be ta'veren, it is just not very likely.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It is possible for darkfriends to be ta'veren, it is just not very likely.

 

Why? -- Not trying to be difficult, but I'm curious.

 

Additionally before you start unilateraly dismissing people positions you may want to read the series. I hear its helpful.

 

Luckers, where's the fun in making informed comments on the forum? I always chuckle to myself when people get het up when someone does something like mixing up saidar and saidin. -- Sorry, just being cheeky.  ;D

 

You should check out the Debates and Discussion Board. Now, there's something to see re. uninformed comments!  ;D