Does the BlackTower remind anyone else of,......

[GaWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWd]

The SS.

 

  Now hear me out. Just from a cursory look I can list quite a few comparisons, and I wonder if RJ was trying to give us a hidden message concerning their purpose and fate.

 

  Let us take the most bland comparisons;

 

1) Black uniforms with a high collar.

 

2) Upon promotion the first thing you would get would be the Sig-run, a silver double "S" which was put on your collar. First thing given to a promoted Ashaman is a silver sword put on the exact same spot.

 

3) SS stands for Schutzstaffel. Meaning protective legion/troop, the guarding legio/troop. Asha'man stands for guardian/defender as well.

 

4) Both are an elite military order outside of the standard military. Their loyalty is to be only to the leader. In the SS's case the Führer. In the asha'mans case the Dragon.

 

5) Both have the creators as semi-rebellious. Himmler the head of the SS was deeply mistrusted by Hitler who feared his growing power (as shown by Hitler in several political filibusters and maneuvers where he weakened Himmler where he could from gaining more power). As well as near the end of the war signing a death warrant and treason charge on Himmler. Same many members of the SS despite their actual oath to the Führer, would probably have supported Himmler over Hitler in a putsch.

We all know Rand's similar issues with Taim. 

 

 

6) Some of the rank names are almost plagiarized from the SS rank of order. Storm Leader vs Sturmführer (German directly translated into Stormleader) or Attack Leader vs Scharführer, etc.. etc..

 

 

7) Both have an obsession for ancient history. The Asha'men for legend and trappings from the old tongue, the SS for ancient Germanic history. Both seek to use these to form a shroud of mysticism around their orders.

 

8) Both are military orders with no definite borders or nationhood. The SS had members from 30+ nations. The Asha'men also have members from all Randland. 

 

 

  etc..

 

 

      What was RJ's purpose in drawing such painfully obvious comparisons between the Asha'men and the SS? Seeing his Q&A, he doesn't seem to ignorant about military history and probably purposly did it, but to what end? What is he trying to show or say?

 

 

[algspkr]

This is a very interesting idea, and likely correct.  Though it would have been of more use at pointing Taim out as a Dark Friend if you had posted it before Winter's Heart.

[Cepheus]

The Ashaman and their Black Tower are painted pretty dark by RJ, and even though their purpose defined by Rand is to be a weapon for the Light they have a very dark feeling so far. My feeling is (as many have stated in other posts about Ashaman) that Logains glory will come from turning the Black Tower into a weapon for the Light instead of Taims personal army.

 

I dont think the purpose of the comparisons is anything other than the fact than to build the very dark picture of Ashaman, and also to show Taims taint. Hes a DF! :)

[SqueeEGA]

I like it.

 

Maybe Rand is leading in the wrong direction.  Hitler probably believed he was a jesus like figure, saving the world by cleansing the races.  He certainly was bonkers by the end, possibly due to his meth use.  i wonder if hitlers meth is equal to rands taint.  Hitler may very well have been insane beforehand, but the meth use couldnt have helped.

[Shaidar]

Well noticed.

 

Also Taim styles himself as the M'Hael (The Leader), following in the best traditions of totalitarian societies.

 

RJ, I think, from his comments believed that Stalinism was no better than Nazism. This idea that polar opposites can be similar to each other is widely presented in WoT, e.g. Aridhol versus the Shadow with their slogan that "the victory of the Light is all", while their actions "forsaked the Light". Possibly he is alluding to similar tendencies within the Asha'man, and hence the need for Cadsuane to teach them 'tears and laughter'.

 

(I am talking specifically about RJ. I myself may or may not agree with the ideas above.)

[BrainFireBob]

It's deliberate. The ranks Taim created even reflect real SS ranks.

 

The Nazi leaders are also one of the sources of inspiration for the Forsaken.

[algspkr]

Every aspect of this story is pulled from several different locations.  Rand has Arthurian influences, but I believe that everyone will agree that he is not King Arthur.

[bjclinton]

what does SS stand for???

i'm guessing something to do w/ Nazi Germany, but can you please be more specific?

[algspkr]

what does SS stand for???

i'm guessing something to do w/ Nazi Germany, but can you please be more specific?

It is in the original post:

3) SS stands for Schutzstaffel. Meaning protective legion/troop, the guarding legio/troop. Asha'man stands for guardian/defender as well.

[URUban]

Also didn't hitler had an injured arm after an assasination atempt. ANd rand got one arm injured also.I wonder if they both have the same sided arm injured

[Shaidar_Rannow]

I dont really think that all that works. Yes there are similarities but hey there are some all through the book. Everyone is forced to take a dreary look at them due to the past of Male Channelers. If the events of the BT play out as hoped(coupe de dat) then they really wont be too close to the SS. Not to mention the position of power represent differences. Channlers stand as the most powerful in Randland and beyond. The SS while considered powerful, did have superiors.

 

I look at it this way, these are the first men able to channel and not go mad for hundreds of years. Perhaps this is there crude form of military tactic. Forms and features will change after the BT is wiped of the face of Randland and intermingled with the WT. Read and Disscuss

[Guest durram laddel cham]

The asha'man do have non-channeling superiours in battle. Remember Bashere in one scene of PoD right before Rand using callandor. Bashere was ordering the asha'man to retreat and send some messengers (asha'man) to the other lords who were attacking.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

The Ashaman and their Black Tower are painted pretty dark by RJ, and even though their purpose defined by Rand is to be a weapon for the Light they have a very dark feeling so far

UNQUOTE

 

That dark feeling is Taims doing. It seems to me like hes abusing Rands control to make them not only weapons but objects of fear. Did Taim order the Aes Sedai to be captured and bonded? If it was him then thats a move to create friction between the Black & White Towers. Taim is making them weapons, but hes making them weapons that will turn on Rand eventually

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Not to mention the position of power represent differences. Channlers stand as the most powerful in Randland and beyond. The SS while considered powerful, did have superiors.

 

Re. the above, I don't understand what you're saying. The SS were the elite of the German armed forces. There weren't many formations that they fought that they didn't come out on top against.

 

I think there is a basic similarity between the two, i.e. the ranks, name and general appearance. Now, to take it much further, I think, is a mistake.

 

I think that Jordan has gone out of his way to create a sinister group, one that causes you to immediately think the worst.

[Niss]

We are looking at this from the wrong perspective. When you look at the SS you look at it as an evil and insanely corrupt organization (which they are but that’s beside the point.). To the Nazis the SS weren’t the bad guys they were the good guys!

I mean realistically would you join the bad-guys side (rhetorical). No sane person would. They thought they were good, the saviors of humanity. That certainly doesn’t justify what they did. They were abnormally cruel and crazy in a logical way (dose that even make sense?). So if you looked at it from their perspective it would seem just like the BT.  The ashamen think they are good – they are not!!  We see them just as most Germans observed the SS—not as the nicest people, (as an after thought) bad actually but not as insanely corrupt, evil, and abominable creatures.

 

Although some may argue, that people in Randland see chanelers as bad so therefore the perspective is the same .but we who are reading don’t.  We had 11 books to adjust ourselves to the fact that male channelers are good—hence why people like Rand the character. So the perspective is generally the same (with a few minor discrepancies.)

 

 

(For anyone who didn’t get it .....I ABHORE ALL NAZIS THRY ARE ALL *AND I DO MEAN ALL* ABOMINABLE CREATURES MAY THEY ALL ROT IN THE WORST OF H**L -- IM BEING NICE NOW -- ANYONE WHO WOULD ARGUE REMEMER ALL THE 11 MILLION PEOPLE AMONG THEM ALL GAYS AND GYPSIES AND 6 MILLION OF THEM JEWS. IF YOU JUST DONT CARE ABOUT THAT THEN YOU SHOULD BE A CERTIFIED LOON!!!!)

[Shaidar_Rannow]

chapter sighting please and thank you

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Why do we need references? The majority of his points come round time and again in the books.

 

About the perceptions of the Ashamen. I think that the point made about people not wanting to join the ranks of the "bad guys" could do with a little elaboration.

 

- Sure, people would probably not wake up one morning and decide to join a morally corrupt organisation like the SS. However, due to their position within society, certainly at the start of the war (the org. was originally one regiment, the Liebenstandart, and served as Hitlers bodyguard), they enjoyed a position of power and prestige. This meant that they attracted egomanics and those desposed toward control.

 

That's similar to the Ash ...

 

Later on in the war the SS accepted conscripts, meaning the perception of the org. to potential recruits becomes a moot point as the "recruits" can't choose where they end up.

 

However, I think we're taking this a little too far. As I mentioned earlier, I think RJ was just looking for an iconic image of moral corruption, meglomania and delusion.

[Anajon]

most of what you guys say is true - but I have recently been reading Tom Clancy and was struck by the revelation that the Ashamen are trained on "The Farm" just like the training camp for the CIA in the US - since I read it I heard it in several TV shows too - so I guess that name is "true" and used by many.

 

So at least that part is taken from something more recent and now you can discuss if RJ is comparing or mixing the SS with the CIA.

 

 

 

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Just to clarify, my prior post was concerning something else, of which I dont recall so please disregard it.

 

Now I dont think there are anything other than some VERY small similarities. All over the book RJ took mythology and of things in history to create his story. The Ash'aman are in NO way similar to the SS in nature or thought. The evil portion of them are coruppted by Taim. These are only perceptions which Rj, throughout the story, has shown us is the wrong way to look at it. You can draw a similarity of the sword and dragon to medals of honor given from many different armies. The REAL Ash'aman(this excludes Taims band of darkfriends) are not cruel, they do not slay anyone other than in battle against enemies that would kill them. They are all victims of lack of clear perception. To say they are similar to the SS would mean(IMO) that the WT is just as similar. They run a tight knit organization and have ranks and leaders. Similar to the comment made toward specific high ranks the WT's yellow ajah has a first weaver and all ajahs have sitters. Now the BT is simply new and lacks a real identity. Given time any similarity to any organization past or present would dissapear. Unfortunately the prophecies show that the BT will not stand the test of time. So I hope I gave a bit more insight into my point and the reasoning behind it.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

So at least that part is taken from something more recent and now you can discuss if RJ is comparing or mixing the SS with the CIA.

 

Well, that's patronizing.

 

I think you'll find if you re-read most of the posts, it's only the original poster who draws a large number of comparisions.