Circle of 13?

[aevogt]

It's universally accepted the Rand is stronger than Nynaeve and in all likelihood he is. 

 

In TDR, Nynaeve is watching 10 full Aes Sedai linked through what is likely the most powerful Sa'angreal in the Tower and thinks to herself.  "I couldn't handle half that much"  Hubris aside, that gives us a benchmark that would put her very near the top, and she hasn’t even reached her full potential.  These wer not weak chcannelers, Suian , Alviarin, Verin, Alanna, Sheriam, to name a few.  Not weaklings at all. 

 

If a weak angreal doubles a channelers capacity like the wopman clothed in her own hair (and we know this from The Path of Daggers, The Breaking Storm), then a powerful Angreal would be what, maybe 10 times the capacity  and a Sa'angreal would be maybe a 100 times the capacity.  So we have a benchmark, albeit one of dubious authenticity.

 

Therefore, Nynaeve should be able to hold 50 times what a circle of 10 full Aes sedai could hold without mechanical assistance.  This correlates to Moraine's assessment the next to Elayne and Egwene, she would "Shine like a bonfire next to two candles" TGH  and E and E are not in any way weak

 

So, my question is

If Rand is stronger than Nynaeve, than how could 13 linked sisters hold him without a Sa'angreal.

 

If the addition of a channeler in a link does not simply add the two strengths together, what is so special about a circle if 13.

 

 

 

[icspots]

This is an old discussion and always brings out talk of relative strengths and what they add up to.  My personal belief is that 13 is just a special number and 13 linked channelers can shield any channeler. 

[Luckers]

I very much doubt a strong angreal would times their strength by ten. That'd definately be in the range of a sa'angreal. I'd guess a strong angreal might well triple the strength if barely--and i state that based on the fact that whilst angreal range in strength, the way Graendal, Elayne and Nynaeve reference the difference between strengths shows that the range is not so dramatic. I very much doubt that a strong angreal would be able to exceed double the strength of a weak one.

 

The fact is though that Nynaeve is wrong. She could not have held half the power present in the circle and we can deduce this. Based on RJ's comments, the cut off strength to become Aes Sedai is roughly around the 38.6 mark. That means that all women present have at least that level of strength. Furthermore of the stated women present we know that Siuan is at the top of the Aes Sedai range, around a 60, and of the others Sheriam, Verin, Anaiya, Alanna and Leane are all cited as being quite strong at various stages--likely somewhere between the 50 and 55 mark.

 

Following on from that we know that circles increase the overall strength without doubling, this probably means that somewhere between 80% and 90% of a womans strength is added.

 

Accordingly, if we place Siuan at 60--give her the sa'angreal and say it times her strength by ten (being conservative) then she is a 600, add the five at 50 and the rest at 40 (they'd be stronger, but im trying to make a point), then if each woman contributes 80% then that means that without the sa'angreal the circle had roughly a strength of 808 units of strength--and thats being conservative, it was probably much higher.

 

Nynaeve, at best, could channel between 80 and 85 units of strength. She was wrong.

 

Incidently, just for curiosity, RJ has stated that he ranked his female channelers on a loose 21 level system, and that the male top strength (Rand's strength) exceeds the female by a 'level or two'. This means that Rand is roughly around 104 to 109 units of strength.

 

 

[aevogt]

In a Q&A, RJ said

 

Q: Ask what the deal is with Nyn being able to hold half the power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little BA by herself. 

A: Some people have shielding talents.

 

Now, if Nyaeve was wrong in her assertion, I would think that when asked this particular question, RJ would have said then that she was wrong.  He didn't.

 

Thus, Ny was not wrong.

 

Although you're porbably right about the relative strength of an Angreal being at best three and a saangreal 10 times. 

 

 

[Luckers]

No, Ny was wrong. We know her strength is less than a hundred, and we know the Aes Sedai cut off point, and we know the rough strength of that circle. And even being incredibly conservative she could never handle half the power that circle did. Not even Lanfear or Rand could have managed that.

 

RJ simply did not comment on the beginning of the question, he answered the point of it. Ispan and Falion were able to hold a shield on Nynaeve because they had a talent for shielding. It's happened other times--the Graendal comment, the Rhuidean comment--RJ had a tendency to leap to the heart of the question. But the facts remain and arn't clouded at all--we know that Nynaeve could not have done what she said.

[Kura]

The full quote itself expresses her own doubt, and personally I see no way it is  in the same hemisphere of the truth.

 

"I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power."

 

To put it simply, Nyn was ignorant, and not anywhere near her full power, and unless I'm mistaken, a female doesn't know her own full strength until she has reached it.

[Guest cw]

The full quote itself expresses her own doubt, and personally I see no way it is  in the same hemisphere of the truth.

 

"I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power."

 

To put it simply, Nyn was ignorant, and not anywhere near her full power, and unless I'm mistaken, a female doesn't know her own full strength until she has reached it.

 

You are mistaken.  A female's potential is known from the start.  While they cannot channel at the maximum for some time, a very good estimate can be made of what they will be capable of.  It is a male's maximum potential that can't be determinable until they stop getting more powerful.

[Kura]

You are mistaken.  A female's potential is known from the start.  While they cannot channel at the maximum for some time, a very good estimate can be made of what they will be capable of.  It is a male's maximum potential that can't be determinable until they stop getting more powerful.

 

I should have been a bit more clear, I meant does a female know there own full strength? I can't remember anything to suggest that looking at ones hands, or in a mirror would reveal your own power, I know other women would know another's strength. All I remember regarding Nyn's full strength is people saying things like "She will be a bonfire compared to the other two" or something along those lines, when Moraine was speaking to Suin((SP?)) about the wondergirls.

[Tyrell]

I.. don't understand the debate "I do not think I could handle half that much of the power" doesn't give any indication of her strength.

 

If the world record holder (mm google happiness) came along and bench pressed 1000lb I could look at the weight and say "Holy shit! I don't think I could even lift half of that" doesn't really give any indication that I think i can lift 500lb, just that I'm making an exclamation and I'm impressed with the ammount of weight.

[aevogt]

No, she's expressing what she thinks she can do and gave a reference point.  In NS, Moraine's potential is know before she reaches it, as is Nynaeve's in the rest of the series. 

 

If you see someone do something and you know what you can do by comparison, you express it with a reference point.  That's what a reference point is for - reference.  Half, a third, a quarter.  That's what you can do.  If Ny cold handle less than a quarter, she wouyld have said less than a quarter.  She didn't, she said "half that much"

 

I've been thinking about this and I believe the scale for channelers is not linear.  i.e. Sorilea at one and pre Finn Leanfear at 100 and everyone else at some point in between,  It would look more like a richter scale plot or an exponential curve.  The higher up you are, the more you can do relative, to the next step down.  This goes along with the fact that linking does not add the two capacities together, it's more complex than that.  If you link a 25 to a 40, you do not get a 65.  It's probably more like 50. 

 

That's what makes me think the progression is non linear.  You can say a channeler is stronger, but there is no reference to determine by how much.

 

Was Moraine wrong when she told Suian about Ny's potential.  I don't think so.  If it were only one reference comparing her to another women by such a wide margin, I could chock it up to errors in editing but it's not just a single example, there are many.

 

 

 

 

[Shendare]

My understanding and interpretation is the same as Tyrell's. The phrase she used has often been used idiomatically, especially by Americans in RJ's generation, especially when one has no way of getting hard numbers to make a more precise comparison.

 

Another example would be something like, "They took SIX vacations abroad last year? I couldn't afford half that!". This would not mean the speaker is saying they could barely afford to take three vacations abroad... it has nothing to do with the numbers. It's just a general idiomatic expression.

[The Lost One]

Original Topic - There has to be something special about the # 13, because there were comments from the foresaken, that as much as they call the current Aes Sedai "untrained girls" and such, that even the foresaken would be afraid of 13 of the weakest linked together.  I do think as another stated, that 13 linked sisters could pretty much shield any channler.  Not sure why or how exactly...but it works.

 

Related Topic- I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread on this, but it is along the same lines..and someone mentioned it.  But if I need to start a new thread just let me know.

 

I always wondered why Nyn could not easily beat those two black sisters that were linked when they found the bowl of the winds.  She seemed to be WAY more powerful then they were and should have been able to knock them out of the way.  What happened?

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

I think Nynaeve was simply stunned by the amount of Power being channelled, and made a comment resulting from that shock. I would certainly not attach any importance to her estimation.

 

 

 

Therefore, Nynaeve should be able to hold 50 times what a circle of 10 full Aes sedai could hold without mechanical assistance.  This correlates to Moraine's assessment the next to Elayne and Egwene, she would "Shine like a bonfire next to two candles" TGH  and E and E are not in any way weak

 

Dude, 50 times? Can you actually imagine that? No human could possibly be that strong. Only the Choedan Kal (sp) and Callandor can accomplish that, I would say. Nynaeve is indeed much stronger than E&E, but I think Moiraine was being a bit poetic and illustrative, I don't think she should be taken literally.

 

So, my question is

If Rand is stronger than Nynaeve, than how could 13 linked sisters hold him without a Sa'angreal.

 

 

LTT comments that he can handle four (I think) Sisters of average strength, but that he would be f***ed up if two of them were of Semirhage's strength (or something like that).

 

I do think Rand can handle five average Sisters (remember how easily he cut Alanna and Verin from the Source?) but a whole circle? No way. He did try to touch the Source just after they shielded him, but he could not even scratch the shield.

 

And I think Rand can handle two Nynaeves linked, but barely.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

if i recall, theres IS a certain minimum strength that you need to have to be able to join a circle in the first place(eg morgase and sorilea wouldn't be able to join a circle).  with the cap at 100 units of strength for an individual channeler, the minimum strength necessary would be somewhere around 7.  remember that while each linked member cannot transfer their absolute maximum over, the efficiency gained means that the circle is greater than the sum of its parts.

[aevogt]

 

 

 

I always wondered why Nyn could not easily beat those two black sisters that were linked when they found the bowl of the winds.  She seemed to be WAY more powerful then they were and should have been able to knock them out of the way.  What happened?

 

 

 

 

That one was answered by Jordan - For one of the Black Sisters, Shielding was a Talent.

 

 

[Zarfol]

If I remember correctly, in one of the books it was stated that Guaire Amalasan was able to beat 6 Aes Sedai alone. But then from Rand//LTT's point of view LTT says he "might" be able to handle 7 with the fat man angreal. Perhaps LTT was just being over-cautious at the time.

 

In any case, I think Asmodean and a few other male channelers have said that the circle of 13 creates the shield that "no man can break". I would assume Asmo would know what he is talking about since he is from the AOL. It might have been that in the AOL all sorts of tests were going on and some 13 weak women got together and practiced shielding on LTT or something. Or there was a formula to determine the strength of channelers in circles and the circle of 13 women with quite weak abilities combined was still greater then the innate power of LTT on male side and I guess Lanfear on Female side (she was an OP researcher, would have been nice if she had some more POV's)

 

I guess it means unaided though for the men. It wouldn't make sense for 13 Morgase's to go wandering around shielding Rand with Callandor in one hand and the Chodean Kal thingy in the other while clenching the fat man angreal who knows where and he is made useless just because there are 13 women holding up a shield.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

If I remember correctly, in one of the books it was stated that Guaire Amalasan was able to beat 6 Aes Sedai alone. But then from Rand//LTT's point of view LTT says he "might" be able to handle 7 with the fat man angreal. Perhaps LTT was just being over-cautious at the time.

 

In any case, I think Asmodean and a few other male channelers have said that the circle of 13 creates the shield that "no man can break". I would assume Asmo would know what he is talking about since he is from the AOL. It might have been that in the AOL all sorts of tests were going on and some 13 weak women got together and practiced shielding on LTT or something. Or there was a formula to determine the strength of channelers in circles and the circle of 13 women with quite weak abilities combined was still greater then the innate power of LTT on male side and I guess Lanfear on Female side (she was an OP researcher, would have been nice if she had some more POV's)

 

I guess it means unaided though for the men. It wouldn't make sense for 13 Morgase's to go wandering around shielding Rand with Callandor in one hand and the Chodean Kal thingy in the other while clenching the fat man angreal who knows where and he is made useless just because there are 13 women holding up a shield.

 

if i recall, theres IS a certain minimum strength that you need to have to be able to join a circle in the first place(eg morgase and sorilea wouldn't be able to join a circle).  with the cap at 100 units of strength for an individual channeler, the minimum strength necessary would be somewhere around 7.  remember that while each linked member cannot transfer their absolute maximum over, the efficiency gained means that the circle is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

?

[Zarfol]

Multiple from above

 

I don't remember reading that you had to have a minimum strength to be in a circle. I was assuming that you had to be a decent strength to "meld the flows" or lead the circle, but pretty much anyone who could reliably hold on to the power (not morgase, maybe i went too far with that : :() could be brought into the circle.