Sea Folk and Tuatha'an Sisters

[aevogt]

We know that there are three Seafolk sisters, all librarians, and all relatively weak in the power.  Since we know that there are some seafolk women of great strength, I am wondering whether there is a lottery or did they just choose  girls of limited potential, as seems to be the case with the three known sisters. 

 

To call Sea Folk heirarchy complex is to understate it so I am thinking that clans lower on the proverbial totem pole might be more likely to be sent. Maybe an entire clan (or a wavemistress or windfinder) can screw up so bad as warrant having one of their own sent to the White Tower, away from the salt, forever.  Would the Sea Folk windfinders be certain in such a case that their secret would be safe if they sent women to the tower under those circumstances.  Loose lips and all that.  Let's face it, if they were asked right out "can WFs channel" they'd have to tell the truth. 

 

I wonder, will Egwene release the current sisters if they wish to return to Trwmalking and not be AS?  She wants all women who can channel connected to the tower but I don't think she wants anyone held against their will.

 

On a similar note, are there any Tinker sisters?  Asling Noon went to the tower in NS but has not heard of since.  Raen states that any girl who shows the spark is sent to TV as fast as the wagons will go.  How do these women become AS and follow the Way?  Or are they sent away as soon as they learn enough to be safe.  The books don't really cover any of this in detail so I'm just thinking out loud.

[Majsju]

The Seafolk deliberatly send very weak channelers to the WT, so that the Aes Sedai will believe the ability in general is too weak with them to bother looking more into it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What he said.  Jorin tells Elayne about it in TSR ch 20.

 

As for the Tinkers, there are probably less than 5 in the Tower ... the Tinker population isn't very high to start with, and sparkers are probably less than 0.25% of the population as a whole.

 

But Tinkers would have no problem following the Way as Aes Sedai.  Many Browns and most Whites never leave the Tower.  No one is going to threaten them with violence there (until recent events, of course, and they could simply have fled those).  None of the Oaths requires you to fight the Shadow.

[Guest leebarr]

I do not think any Tuatha'an sisters were talked about in the books. Sure the band Perrin and Ewgene run into in TEOTW the leader says 'when we find a girl who can cannel in our group we head to the tower and drop her off'. other then that none are seen or talked about.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The three Sea Folk Sisters are Aiden, Nyein, and Zemaille.  They are all relatively weak, they are all Brown Ajah, and they all keep to themselves in the Library.  See WH ch 11 and CoT ch 21.

[BrainFireBob]

Aisling Noon, formerly of the Tuatha'an, is now an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah and the advisor of one of the Borderland rulers- I believe Paitr of Arafel. She is in fact mentioned again- by name only, her origin is not mentioned.

 

The three Sea Folk sisters are the keepers of the secret archives, since they tend to keep to themselves and are therefore considered perfect candidates for the job.

 

 

[Luckers]

She was advisor to Easar of Shienar, but left when the Tower split. She was then a part of Toveine group and was bonded with the rest of them... to Arel Malevin.

 

And seemingly she no longer has issues with violence since she took part in killing the Trollocs in KoD.

[elmis]

Let's face it, if they were asked right out "can WFs channel" they'd have to tell the truth.

 

Very good point, even a 14-15-16 year old Seafolk woman would know about Windfinders, and their feats. Kinda strange that some of the bullies in the tower never thought to ask them, instead of assuming they're all weak. Then again, the tower never has gone out actively looking for women who can channel, so it might not be such a big point anyway. 

[dyring]

There is no reason to ask them about winfinders straight. no AS knows there re windfinders. Theyd propably ask if there are wilders among the sea folk, and then the sea folk sisters can reply no truthfully.

 

the fact that there are sea folk sisters thou, why not just send 1 or 2 more, then after trainging, and a few more years to avoid suspicion maybe, return to the boats and act as a teacher for the windfinders for a while?

[aevogt]

In TSR, Moraine suspects the WF can channel which is why she recommends using them to get to Tanchico.  If one AS suspects it, so can another.

[DemandredFO]

Yeah, but I think Moiraine, Verin, Suian and a few others are clever Aes Sedai who don't believe that everything said or shown to them is the truth.

[Guest cw]

There is no reason to ask them about winfinders straight. no AS knows there re windfinders. Theyd propably ask if there are wilders among the sea folk, and then the sea folk sisters can reply no truthfully.

 

If asked if there are Wilder's among the Atha'an Miere, they would have to say yes.  A Wilder is anyone that learned to Channel outside of the Tower.  Therefore all Windfinders are Wilders.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If asked if there are Wilder's among the Atha'an Miere, they would have to say yes.  A Wilder is anyone that learned to Channel outside of the Tower.  Therefore all Windfinders are Wilders.

 

Of course, they could always give an Aes Sedai answer like, "The Sea Folk try to find all girls who can channel." or "The Sea Folk send girls like that to the Tower."  Both of those statements are "true", but conceal the truth.  After all, the Sea Folk do try to find all girls who can channel (so that most can become Windfinders).  And the Sea Folk do send girls like that to the Tower (just not all of them).

 

Just because they are asked directly, doesn't mean that they have to answer directly.

[aevogt]

Yes, but those are evasive enough answers to arouse suspicion to any other woman used to doing the same.  Especially is the questioner is stronger in the power and therefore would have to be deferred to.

 

i.e.

 

"Are any of the Seafolk Windfinders women who can channel?"

 

Twist your way out of that one.  ;-)> 

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Are any of the Seafolk Windfinders women who can channel?"

 

"Channeling is very rare among the Sea Folk.  Windfinders spend their time studying the stars and the currents.  Women who can channel are sent to the White Tower."

 

Those three sentences are true, every word.

[cloglord]

Considering that it is very rude to interfere in another sister's buisness, it adds another layer of obfuscation to the situation.  In the earlier example.

 

Q:Are any of the Seafolk Windfinders women who can channel?

A: That's none of your buisness.

 

Given the nature of the AS society, the rudeness of asking a personal question would probably cancle out the rudeness of not deferring to a more powerful sister.

 

Further, the very idea of channeling windfinders could have had a horn of valere effect going on.  It could simply be that AS have believed that windfinders cannot channel for so long that they never thought to ask,  like the horn of valere, who thought to blow it during the onset of the war of power?  no one.  As RJ once replied to that question, you seen anyone sacrificing a white bull to Zeus lately?  Simply, why would anyone ask a question that they already knew the answer to?

[aevogt]

Considering what we know about attitudes in the Tower for the last couple of hundred years, that's a pretty good point.

[Luckers]

No one blew the Horn during the War of the Shadow because no one knew were to find it, but cloglord has a good point. When it comes to non-Aes Sedai channelers Aes Sedai are blinded. Take that a step further with windfinders--a group of women who not only know they can channel but have no desire to become Aes Sedai. For most Aes Sedai thats inconcievable. I mean just look at them trying to justify the decline in the Tower--they go on about culling the whole human race not even pausing to concider that maybe its simply that less girls are going to the Tower.

[Darth_Andrea]

The tower has ingrained in them that only Aes Sedai have the true knowlage of channeling. It's alot like Politicans, they think the average person knows nothing of how things are done or what needs to be done. Aes Sedai see "Wilders" as much the same. I'm sure that the women of the tower would see Windfinders and Wise Ones as wilders no matter what. Though I believe Egwene will change that over time if her Idea of makeing the tower a sort of clearing house for channeling comes about. But with the male half of the source useable now and men being trained, who knows how things will eventualy turn out. It's going to take a generation or two before male channelers will be truely excepted by the world.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[Alexius]

Hello, new member here, sorry to start out by resurrecting an old thread but I thought it would be better than starting a new one...

 

About Tinker Aes Sedai- I think that the idea that Tinkers who go to the Tower abandon the Way of the Leaf is accepted by the rest of the People. Thus, Noon would have no problem choosing Green. As for why: the Way of the Leaf comes from when the Tinkers were Da'shain Aiel serving the Age of Legends Aes Sedai. We know that some Aes Sedai in the AoL came from among the Aiel: the boy whose eyes Rand sees through during the War of the Power flashback in Rhuidean was tested to see if he could become one. We assume that these Aiel AS left the Covenant- after all, they couldn't be the servants of the Aes Sedai while being Aes Sedai. Therefore, Tinkers have some memory that the Aes Sedai should not be bound by the Way, and thus Tinkers who leave the Way to become Aes Sedai are not considered Lost- it's the only accepted way to leave other than by death. However, those like Aisling are presumably no longer considered Tuatha'an- they wouldn't be shunned like Aram were they to meet Tinkers, but they would be thought of as strangers rather than fellow-Tinkers (especially not Aisling with her four Warders!).

 

And one more question: What do the Tinkers do with men who can channel? Would handing them over to the Reds violate the Way of the Leaf or not? Or are they expected to leave on their own or kill themselves like they do among the Aiel? After all, Rand's Breaking flashback talks about a man from the Aiel before either the Tinkers or the Jenn split off "throwing himself off a cliff when he realised he could channel".

[Luckers]

Hey Alexius! Welcome to the board.

 

Well, the Tinkers don't actually have any memories of the Da'shain that we know of--nor of the Aes Sedai. Indeed Raen specifically expresses sadness over Elyas previous life as a Warder, indicating they hold no real exception for Aes Sedai.

 

My guess it has more to do with being rejected by your entire world. They're pretty tight nit, these Tinkers, yet when a girl manifests the ability they take her to the Tower and dump her there. It's be enough to make anyone a little bitter.

 

And one more question: What do the Tinkers do with men who can channel? Would handing them over to the Reds violate the Way of the Leaf or not? Or are they expected to leave on their own or kill themselves like they do among the Aiel? After all, Rand's Breaking flashback talks about a man from the Aiel before either the Tinkers or the Jenn split off "throwing himself off a cliff when he realised he could channel".

 

My guess is they ship them off to the Reds, but we don't know.

[BrainFireBob]

I vote they follow the practices of the Jenn and their probable cousins, the Amayar- it's expected the men commit suicide so as not to violate the Way.

[Cepheus]

It seems unlikely to me that the Tinkers would disregard The Way and let red sisters hurt their own. To me it would be unnatural for them to "look the other way".

 

Suicide is more likely imo.

[Luckers]

I disagree. Violence against oneself preceeding a wounding that is not immediately fatal?

[Alexius]

Well, as said before, male Jenn channelers would kill themselves, despite the Way of the Leaf- and the same thing happens with the Amayar. Perhaps they hand themselves to the Reds- or perhaps suicide doesn't contravene the Way. After all, the leaf "falls at its appointed time", and maybe learning that you can channel is an indication that your time is up.

 

Edit: As for the Tinkers' attitude to modern-day Aes Sedai, maybe the Warders are the problem. After all, there were no Warders in the Age of Legends, so no reason for the Aiel/Tinkers to accept them. However, if the Way has survived, the fact that Aes Sedai are not expected to follow it may also have.