The Too Young Sitters Conspiracy Theory - The Revival Thread

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you do not follow the Ajah Heads order on how to vote in the Hall why would you follow her order to resign from the Hall, especially if you have doubts about whether she is black?

 

Because resigning from the Hall is not the same as voting in it?  Because you're probably going to have to give a reason, to someone, sometime, and "I think she's Black Ajah" isn't going to fly?  Because the Ajah Heads have demonstrated serious clout, both through law and influence, within their own Ajahs?

 

Of all the surprises that could happen, this one would high on my list of "most unlikely surprises".

[dyring]

What if, after reuniting the towers, infront of both halls so to speak, Egwene simply sais:

 

I really don´t think this is my buissness, and I really don´t want to try to usurp the Ajah´s own authority, so in deference to the ajah´s own leadership, Ill disband both theese halls, and once the ajah´s has decided, as are there right, who are to sit in the hall for them, we will have a full sitting.

 

Or something simular? The only once who might be pissed at Egwene then would be the ones that the Ajas heads didnt want in the hall, and they don´t reall matters as much. The Aja heads should like it one would think?

 

(is deference a word btw? Well, if it ent, i trust you can figure out what I mean ;)

 

 

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Because resigning from the Hall is not the same as voting in it?  Because you're probably going to have to give a reason, to someone, sometime, and "I think she's Black Ajah" isn't going to fly?  Because the Ajah Heads have demonstrated serious clout, both through law and influence, within their own Ajahs?

 

Your logic leaves me wholy unconvinced.  If the Head's have as much influence as you say why not opt to keep the Too Young Sitters and retire the older ones. As they are more maliable the Heads would have much more to gain.  Moreover, the pressure that they could assert would be as great on the older Sitters. Moreover, any present Sitter for the Rebels would appreciate the concern that any Sitter would have about someone in power being a black. 

 

Morover, I frankly think that this entire theory is far fetched. It would of had to have been planned and executed between the time of Siuan's deposing and the ill-fated attempt to free her. It would have to encompass not only all the Ajah heads agreeing to the plan, but also choosing not only the TOO young Sitters but who would lead their Ajah's in the Tower/Rebel camp depending on whether they themselves stayed or went. Its not like this is a contingency that they would have likely seen a need for. There must be an explaination for the Too Young Sitters but this theory just doesn't wring true. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

If the Head's have as much influence as you say why not opt to keep the Too Young Sitters and retire the older ones. As they are more maliable the Heads would have much more to gain.

 

 

LOL ... because they probably couldn't force all of the older ones to resign ... they chose the younger ones because they knew they had enough influence to move them out, but the older ones could cause problems if they tried it.  That is the entire point of choosing "too young" Sitters.

 

It would of had to have been planned and executed between the time of Siuan's deposing and the ill-fated attempt to free her.

 

Um ... no.  The new Sitters in the Tower weren't chosen the same day, and certainly the ones in Salidar weren't chosen for some time.  There was a period of time in which the Ajah Heads could have developed this plan ... just because Jordan didn't write the details of it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

 

It would have to encompass not only all the Ajah heads agreeing to the plan, but also choosing not only the TOO young Sitters but who would lead their Ajah's in the Tower/Rebel camp depending on whether they themselves stayed or went.

 

And ... ?  None of that is beyond the scope of possibility, or even probability.

[CUBAREY]

And ... ?  None of that is beyond the scope of possibility, or even probability.

 

And Bela the wonder horse could have killed Asmoden.

[Luckers]

Robert is quite correct, not only does the time frame involved allow for the Ajah Heads to go 'oh my, the Tower has split, we should probably do something about that.' It allows them plenty of time for extensive planning. Who knows, this all could have begun merely as an attempt to reunify their own Ajahs--they could quite easily have thought that the Sisters that fled would simply float back. Maybe in the beginning they were merely acting to smooth their return, in part by ensuring the new Sitters could be pushed aside without ruffling any feathers.

 

As for the argument that those Too Young Sitters would not step aside easily--i think thats ignoring the degree to which Aes Sedai systems of hierarchy are drilled into the Aes Sedai. Vandene herself says it when Elayne supplants her in Ebou Dar, and we also hear it from Siuan during the first chapter of KoD. Fitting into your social position of power as dictated by your standing is one of the key aspects to an Aes Sedai's nature.

 

Had women who had a genuine claim of years and experience risen to replace the Sitters that fled then there would have been issues with who should be put aside. That doesn't exist here.

 

And lastly, Cubarey... yes, your quite correct. A horse killing one of the Forsaken makes an excellent parallel to women experienced in plotting coming together over the course of the three day coup out of concern for the fact that their Ajah's--the most important thing to them--fractured.

 

Excellent argument mate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hey Luckers ... um ... you got a little sarcasm on your chin there ... napkin?  ;D

 

Seriously, though, CUBAREY ... the issue you're raising is the entire point of appointing "too young" Sitters ... the Ajah Heads picked the people they did specifically to avoid the problem you're raising.  This conspiracy (assuming it turns out to be what we think it is) may be the most competent bit of "Aes Sedai political manipulation" that we've actually seen.

[Luckers]

Fine, next time i won't rush to your rescue. See if I care.

 

*sniffle*

[RobertAlexWillis]

I assume you'll need a napkin for that too ... -sigh-

[Luckers]

Of course not. We gays are very clean people, and have been that way ever since we came out here from France. Even when we cry we don't make a mess.

[CUBAREY]

The whole thing would make more sense if the Too Young Sitters were obviously weak in the power. While age is important in A.S. hierarchy relative strength in the power is much more important. Thus if the sitters were the Too Weak Sitters the logic would make more sense to me.

 

And yia Luckers, Ajah heads holding Ajah wide meetings in the three day period relevent here, saying okay looks like not only the Tower is going to Split but so is our Ajah, so this is what we are going to do, makes a lot of sense--not.

 

p.s. I always suspected that Felix (from the Odd Couple) was in the closet. :o

[RobertAlexWillis]

First of all ... I'm not sure where this "three day period" came from ... does it say somewhere that all the new Sitters in the Tower were chosen within the first three days after Siuan's deposing?  This plan could have developed over a period of weeks within the Tower, and a period of months in Salidar.  There have been indications of several lanes of communication between the Tower and the Rebels the whole time.

 

Second, age is more important in the Hall than anywhere else in the Aes Sedai hierarchy.  Combine the Sitters' young age with the fact that strength in the Power doesn't matter when you're talking to your Ajah Head, and there is every reason for the Ajah Heads to believe that the Sitters they've personally chosen for this purpose will step down ... and every reason for the Sitters in question to do it.

 

Finally ... who said these were "Ajah-wide" meetings?  The Ajah Heads probably didn't meet with anyone other than themselves ... and the women they chose as Sitters.  I mean, its easy to make ridiculous stuff up, and then say its ridiculous ... but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Luckers]

The whole thing would make more sense if the Too Young Sitters were obviously weak in the power. While age is important in A.S. hierarchy relative strength in the power is much more important. Thus if the sitters were the Too Weak Sitters the logic would make more sense to me.

 

Except that we know that the Sitters establish precedence by age, not strength in the Power--look at Egwene's ascension to the Amyrlin Seat, or who weaves the wards, or who speaks first. All based in Age. Age is the defining aspects that dictates interaction within the Hall... and indeed, within the Hall is one of the the specifically mentioned places that the strength based hierarchy holds no power whatsoever.

 

And yia Luckers, Ajah heads holding Ajah wide meetings in the three day period relevent here, saying okay looks like not only the Tower is going to Split but so is our Ajah, so this is what we are going to do, makes a lot of sense--not.

 

What are you talking about? The battles defining the devisions both within the Tower and within the Ajahs occured from the get go. There was no 'looking like'--it was open battle, pretty hard not to realise some sort of devision was going on.

 

And yes, the Ajah Heads being concerned about that conflict absolutely makes sense... my god man, there was open battle. Aes Sedai killing each other. Aes Sedai fleeing the Tower. Do you really think these women--women who, in the fracturing of the Hall, held the only remaining reigns of power--weren't thinking 'Umm... oh my, this isn't good, perhaps I should do something?'.

 

First of all ... I'm not sure where this "three day period" came from ... does it say somewhere that all the new Sitters in the Tower were chosen within the first three days after Siuan's deposing?  This plan could have developed over a period of weeks within the Tower, and a period of months in Salidar.  There have been indications of several lanes of communication between the Tower and the Rebels the whole time.

 

The three days was the time of the conflict within the Tower. After that all who remained either supported Elaida or were dead. I wasn't using it to define the rise of the Too Young Sitters, I was saying that it didn't all happen at once. It was a prolonged conflict that allowed the Ajah Heads time to process what was happening.

 

And as I said, I don't doubt the plan evolved over time. My guess is it began purely from the belief that the sisters that fled would return. I personally have no doubts that the initial intentions of the Ajah Heads was merely to smooth that return. When the Rebellion formed it altered, certainly, but the many months involved more than allowed for the Ajah Heads to adapt, and indeed their on going meetings show them to be... ongoing in their planning.

 

Second, age is more important in the Hall than anywhere else in the Aes Sedai hierarchy.  Combine the Sitters' young age with the fact that strength in the Power doesn't matter when you're talking to your Ajah Head, and there is every reason for the Ajah Heads to believe that the Sitters they've personally chosen for this purpose will step down ... and every reason for the Sitters in question to do it.

 

Who says that the Ajah Heads would even be directly the ones giving the commands. A major part of the idea is merely that these women would not have the social standing to object to being replaced by more appropriate Sitters... and furthermore, that due to Aes Sedai indoctrination they would fluidly fit into the new state of things following reunification.

 

Finally ... who said these were "Ajah-wide" meetings?  The Ajah Heads probably didn't meet with anyone other than themselves ... and the women they chose as Sitters.  I mean, its easy to make ridiculous stuff up, and then say its ridiculous ... but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

Do you mean the Footdragging Five or the Too Young Sitter... because i really doubt they met with the Too Young Sitters.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You do know that I'm agreeing with you here ... right Luckers?  ;)

 

Who says that the Ajah Heads would even be directly the ones giving the commands. A major part of the idea is merely that these women would not have the social standing to object to being replaced by more appropriate Sitters... and furthermore, that due to Aes Sedai indoctrination they would fluidly fit into the new state of things following reunification.

 

Well ... we know that the Ajah Heads did "hand-pick" pick the ones in the Tower ... and in some cases are the ones in the Tower ... and while Sitters are theoretically elected by the Ajahs, it seems that the approval of the Ajah Head is more than just a formality.  So, at some point in the process, the Ajah Heads are giving orders here. 

 

Do you mean the Footdragging Five or the Too Young Sitter... because i really doubt they met with the Too Young Sitters.

 

Sorry ... when I said "meet with", I didn't necessarily mean "disclose the entire plan to".  I doubt anyone outside the Ajah Heads themselves knows what the plan is.  Given all the POV's we have of Sitters who don't know (Pevara, Yukiri, Seaine), plus the fact that Alviarin and Mesaana don't know, despite multiple Black Sitters in the Hall (per TPoD ch 25) its safe to say that the Tower Sitters don't know.

 

The Footdragging Five though (Faiselle, Magla, Saroiya, Takima and Varilin, for anyone else following this conversation) would certainly have to know ... which makes me wonder if they told the Salidar Ajah heads.  If not ... then that could potentially be a problem.  The only Salidar Ajah Heads whose identity we know are Myrelle and Romanda.  Myrelle can be taken care of with a word from Egwene (although Adelorna certainly can't know that), but Romanda ...

 

Which brings me back to the idea that the biggest potential wrench in this plan (other than the Black Ajah) is Romanda, since she doesn't seem to know, and was a surprise on the scene in Salidar, both as a Sitter and as an Ajah Head.  Romanda is strong enough in herself (age, strength in the Power, personality, and experience in the Hall) to make trouble if she wants to.  But I think that when Egwene emerges from the mess in the Tower strongly, and backs the Ajah Heads' plan for the reconstitution of the Hall, that Romanda will be willing to go gracefully.

[Guest leebarr]

I think Egwene said it best a world with the dragon reborn and changing almost daily needs younger poeple with a open mind.

[Luckers]

You do know that I'm agreeing with you here ... right Luckers?

 

I do, I was just trying to explain where the three day thing came from since i first referenced it.

 

 

Well ... we know that the Ajah Heads did "hand-pick" pick the ones in the Tower ... and in some cases are the ones in the Tower ... and while Sitters are theoretically elected by the Ajahs, it seems that the approval of the Ajah Head is more than just a formality.  So, at some point in the process, the Ajah Heads are giving orders here.

 

The Ajah Heads who are Sitters are legitimate Sitters... or were you saying that there is a comment that they directly had a hand in specific Too Young Sitters? In which case... coolness.

 

But in case my point was merely that the Ajah Heads didn't need to specifically select Too Young Sitters. It doesn't matter to the scope of this conspiracy who it is that is selected, merely that they are indeed young and can thus be politely shoved aside.

 

I'm just saying... they hardly needed to be choosey. And they certainly don't require their candidates to be either trustworthy or involved, just young and shovable. I mean certainly some thought would go into it in the sense of deciding on candidates that they can get elected despite their youth... but you get what I'm saying, right?

 

Sorry ... when I said "meet with", I didn't necessarily mean "disclose the entire plan to".  I doubt anyone outside the Ajah Heads themselves knows what the plan is.  Given all the POV's we have of Sitters who don't know (Pevara, Yukiri, Seaine), plus the fact that Alviarin and Mesaana don't know, despite multiple Black Sitters in the Hall (per TPoD ch 25) its safe to say that the Tower Sitters don't know.

 

The Footdragging Five though (Faiselle, Magla, Saroiya, Takima and Varilin, for anyone else following this conversation) would certainly have to know ... which makes me wonder if they told the Salidar Ajah heads.  If not ... then that could potentially be a problem.  The only Salidar Ajah Heads whose identity we know are Myrelle and Romanda.  Myrelle can be taken care of with a word from Egwene (although Adelorna certainly can't know that), but Romanda ...

 

Which brings me back to the idea that the biggest potential wrench in this plan (other than the Black Ajah) is Romanda, since she doesn't seem to know, and was a surprise on the scene in Salidar, both as a Sitter and as an Ajah Head.  Romanda is strong enough in herself (age, strength in the Power, personality, and experience in the Hall) to make trouble if she wants to.  But I think that when Egwene emerges from the mess in the Tower strongly, and backs the Ajah Heads' plan for the reconstitution of the Hall, that Romanda will be willing to go gracefully.

 

Or, lacking that, be willing to blend gracefully as long as her own position is maintained. In any case I agree--indeed, its even possible that with the Seanchan assault, not to mention Tarmon Gai'don, that the point will be made moot by Suana Dragand's death....

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

And yes, the Ajah Heads being concerned about that conflict absolutely makes sense... my god man, there was open battle. Aes Sedai killing each other. Aes Sedai fleeing the Tower. Do you really think these women--women who, in the fracturing of the Hall, held the only remaining reigns of power--weren't thinking 'Umm... oh my, this isn't good, perhaps I should do something?'.

 

This is where I have the largest problrem with the theory. Once the attempt to rescue Siuan was launched the power of the Ajah heads was also fractured.The members of 5 ajahs split between Tower and Rebel factions and killed each other during the attack.  After the attack those Ajah heads remaining in the Tower held no sway with rebel members of their Ajahs. Similarly, any Ahaj head that became a rebel would have lost their power with Tower adherents ajah members. Its hard to see how sisters who were in violent and open conflict with their ajah heads could be willing to take orders on who to raise to the Hall from the same Ajah head.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Ajah Heads who are Sitters are legitimate Sitters... or were you saying that there is a comment that they directly had a hand in specific Too Young Sitters? In which case... coolness.

 

Thats what I was saying.

 

In CoT Prologue, Yukiri and Seaine have what is probably the most enlightening discussion on the subject that we have.  Among other things, Seaine asked Yukiri, "Did the Head of your Ajah have a hand in choosing Andaya for the Hall?  More than usual, I mean?"

 

Yukiri replies, "She did."

 

Seaine goes on, "I knew it.  Saerin says that Juilaine was handpicked for the Brown, too, apparently not their usual way, and Doesine says the same about Suana, though she was hesitant about saying anything.  I think Suana may be the head of the Yellow Ajah herself [seaine is correct, of course] ... and Ferane stepped down for the White less than ten years ago [when she became First Reasoner]; no one has ever entered the Hall again so soon.  To cap it off, Talene says ... Adelorna chose Rina without any nominations."

 

So, one odd Sitter from each Ajah is known to have been either personally chosen by the Ajah heads, or is the Ajah Head herself.  The original plan was probably to send the Footdragging Five (Faiselle, Magla, Saroiya, Takima and Varilin) to Salidar, and keep these five slots (Andaya, Ferane, Suana, Rina, and Juilaine) essentially open for their return.  The Ajah Heads would certainly step aside for their own plan ... and the other three are not even especially strong in the Power, and are very young (each having worn the shawl for less than 70 years, according to Siuan in CoT ch 18). 

 

The only Sitters who do not fit that pattern are Romanda (who surprised everyone) and Janya ... (who, upon further inspection, I could make at least a decent case for as Black Ajah ... despite having near the same standing as Romanda and Lelaine, she has remained in the background ... and her voting record is remarkably like Delana's ...)

 

But in case my point was merely that the Ajah Heads didn't need to specifically select Too Young Sitters. It doesn't matter to the scope of this conspiracy who it is that is selected, merely that they are indeed young and can thus be politely shoved aside.

 

But, knowing that they did, at least in the Tower, makes for an even stronger case.  And the Footdragging Five probably made recommendations for younger ones in Salidar, in preparation for a possible future reconciliation (thought they certainly wouldn't have cited that as the reason).

 

I think Egwene said it best a world with the dragon reborn and changing almost daily needs younger poeple with a open mind.

 

While that may be true, in some ways, I doubt anyone in the Tower is thinking that way.

 

Its hard to see how sisters who were in violent and open conflict with their ajah heads could be willing to take orders on who to raise to the Hall from the same Ajah head.

 

Unless they were sent from the Tower to Salidar with the specific purpose of making this work, and therefore weren't in violent and open conflict with their Ajah Heads ... which is very possible for ... drum roll please ... Faiselle, Magla, Saroiya, Takima and Varilin ... all pre-split Sitters who arrived late at Salidar, one from each of the five Ajahs in question.

 

Its not like someone was running around taking roll of who fought on what side during the battle.

 

And its not like all the Sisters split from the Tower and went, together, all in one group, straight to Salidar.  They were scattered, and then gathered over the course of months ... more than long enough for the Ajah Heads to concoct their plan and send those five Sitters to execute it.

[Elgee]

CUBAREY, just as a matter of interest, which of the 2 theories makes no sense to you? Or are you rejecting both?

[Luckers]

This is where I have the largest problrem with the theory. Once the attempt to rescue Siuan was launched the power of the Ajah heads was also fractured.The members of 5 ajahs split between Tower and Rebel factions and killed each other during the attack.  After the attack those Ajah heads remaining in the Tower held no sway with rebel members of their Ajahs. Similarly, any Ahaj head that became a rebel would have lost their power with Tower adherents ajah members. Its hard to see how sisters who were in violent and open conflict with their ajah heads could be willing to take orders on who to raise to the Hall from the same Ajah head.

 

Which is why they sent the Footdragging Five out--oh, not nesasarily to influence a Rebel Hall, which they couldn't have predicted, but certainly to influence the gatherings of the Ajahs that would almost certainly have occured. They very likely thought it would involve approaching small groups like that at the Silver Swan or those with Cadsuane, but that makes no difference now.

 

And they weren't in violent confrontation with each other. When the violence broke out and Sisters began to flee, the Ajah Heads approached each other and then later sought out Sitters of influence who had been forced to flee. It was done over many weeks, and involved approaching no more than ten women.

 

This wouldn't have involved them approaching women they couldn't trust, or women actively engaging in the battle. Indeed, at that time that was all they could do because of the fractured state of things... but that they could do with ease.