The Too Young Sitters Conspiracy Theory - The Revival Thread

[Elgee]

This is something that has been gnawing at me since it was first brought up by Siuan amongst the Rebels, and later by the White Sitter Seaine in the Tower. I'm going to steal shamelessly from Luckers, to start off with:

 

Sitters. * denotes a rebel.

 

Red = 3 normal (Pevara, Duhara and Javindhra), no abnormal.

 

Blue = 3 normal (Lelaine*, Moria* and Lyrelle*), no abnormal.

 

Yellow = 4 normal (Romanda*, Magla*, Doesine, Sedore), 2 abnormal (Salita* and Suana).

 

White = 3 normal (Saroiya*, Seaine and Valina), 3 abnormal (Aledrin*,  Berana* and Ferane).

 

Gray = 3 normal (Varilin*, Yukiri and an unamed Sitter from the tower), 3 abnormal (Delana*, Kwamesa* and Andaya).

 

Green = 3 normal (Faiselle*, Talene, Rubinde), 3 abnormal (Malind*, Semalin* and Rina)

 

Brown = 4 normal (Jenya*, Takima*, Shevan and Saerin), 2 abnormal (Escarlde* and Juilaine).

 

Now, it should be noted that with the exception of the Yellow and the Brown, this sets up a situation in which the Halls could theoretically be combined without ruffling too many feathers. The discrepency in the Yellow is caused by the appearence of Romanda, who, as is stated many times essentially had a seat from the moment she had appeared due to her record. And the discrepancy in the Brown is created by the fact that it is the only Ajah aside from the Blue to have had two pre-schism sitters come to Salidar.

 

So essentially someone is trying to re-unify the Aes Sedai, and has been doing so for sometime. But who?

 

I'm going to start with a little pet theory of mine, that involves Cadsuane, and the Black Ajah.  Now I'm sure by now it has been made clear that Cadsuane is NOT Black Ajah; in fact, at one stage she muses that she came very close to rooting out the BA, only to have her quarry slip through her fingers.

 

So ... What do we know?

 

1. Cadsuane is not Black

2. The Ajah Heads who are talking to each other are not Black

3. The Too Young Sitters are not Black (or the Black would know about this)

 

Is all of this coincidence?  Were they just lucky in their choice of whom to speak to, and who was chosen as the TYS's ?

 

Let's consider a fourth point:

 

4. The Sitters in the Tower investigating the Black have filched the Oath Rod to swear on it that they are not Black.

 

If they could do it, who is to say it hasn't been done before?

 

Theory: Cadsuane was in the Tower during the Aiel War. Did she hunt for the Black Ajah all on her own, or did she gather Sisters she could trust even then? How would she know for sure they WEREN'T Black?  Bear in mind that she will bend rules and customs if it means getting the job done.  Now, let's surmise that some of those Sisters whom she trusts are still in the Tower when the Dragon Reborn becomes known.  Her aim is to help him win the Last Battle, and having Black Sisters running around would be one of the biggest threats to him, and the higher up they are at the Tower, the bigger the threat.

 

So let's say there are a few Sisters in the Tower who have sworn to each other on the Oath Rod that they are not Black.  They manipulated things so that only those became the Heads. When the split happened, they made sure that some of them went with the Rebels, and took with them others whom they were sure of and had them elected to as many vacant positions as possible.

 

Why are there so many too young Sitters? If you were kidnapping Sisters and forcing them to swear on the Oath Rod, who would you choose? The younger, more easily intimidated ones, of course!

 

My theory doesn't necesarily have to include Cadsuane as the grand instigator of all this, though I can't think of any single other AS who would have the big brass ones, the standing, and the deviousness to start it all.

 

My theory also does not exclude the "Reunification" theory, but I would give it another twist: what better way to ensure that the Reunited Tower has Sitters who are NOT Black?

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

 

So let's say there are a few Sisters in the Tower who have sworn to each other on the Oath Rod that they are not Black.  They manipulated things so that only those became the Heads

 

Why are there so many too young Sitters? If you were kidnapping Sisters and forcing them to swear on the Oath Rod, who would you choose? The younger, more easily intimidated ones, of course!

 

I think these two quotes taken together are the weakest part of the theory.

If the most logical Sisters to kidnap are the young (and therefore less influential) and there are only a few of these sisters how did they manipulate their Ajahs to become their heads. Ieven granting that some years have elapsed from the time they would have been kidnapped they would still be considered relatively young and not all that influential in a Tower where most Sitters seem to have been A.S. about 100 years before they are elected.

 

[Delenn]

I am sure someone has pointed this out before but anyway...

 

It seems likely that both Verin & Cadsuane have managed to remove the Oaths. With Cadsuane she is too old even for an AS to appear as young as she does (commented when she first shows up) and with Verin it is undisputed that she can lie.

 

I seem to remember the two of them being too casual of strangers and so under Elgee's theory I can imagine Cadsuane getting Verin to work for her to hunt the Blacks and both of them removing each others Oaths so that they can search (and hide) more easily.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The only part of that scenario that really makes my skeptical eyebrow raise is this:

 

So let's say there are a few Sisters in the Tower who have sworn to each other on the Oath Rod that they are not Black.  They manipulated things so that only those became the Heads.

 

That is much easier said than done, especially since everyone doesn't seem to know who the other Ajah heads are, and considering that Galina became the Highest of the Red Ajah just after the time that you are proposing this scenario (18 years ago according to her POV in the prologue of LoC)... that would be a serious foul-up.

 

Also, considering that Talene would have been one of the Sitters in a reunified Tower, they weren't doing a very good job ... it took the Hunters to find her.

 

It would easier to put this to the test if we knew exactly how long each Ajah Head had been in her position ... which I have been unable to discover.  Heres a partial summary of what we know:

 

Red Ajah: Current Highest is Tsutama Rath, recently raised.

          Previous Highest was Galina Casban (confirmed Black) who became Highest in or around 982 NE

 

Blue Ajah: Current First Selector is Eadyth?  (I put the question mark there because Eadyth is not referenced anywhere outside New Spring ... the complete absence of the head of the Blue Ajah in the current crisis is ... odd ... to say the least.  Am I overlooking something?)  Eadyth's selection pre-dates the Aiel War

 

White Ajah:  Current First Reasoner is Ferane Neheran.  The time of her ascension is unknown ... although it was probably less than 10 years ago, when she stepped down as a Sitter for the first time (CoT prologue).

 

Green Ajah:  Current Captain-General in the Tower: Adelorna Bastine.  Time of ascension unknown.

            Current Captain-General in Salidar: Myrelle Berengani.  It seems clear that Myrelle would step down in the case of reunification ... and she is the only Ajah Head we know in the Salidar faction.

 

Gray Ajah: Current Head Clerk Serancha Colvine.  Time of ascension unknown.

 

Brown Ajah: Current Ajah Head Jesse Bilal.  Time of ascension unknown.  Seen meeting with Ferane and Suana in WH, prologue.

 

Yellow Ajah: Current First Weaver Suana Dragand.  Time of ascension unknown.  Like Ferane Neheran (with whom she was seen, sparking the discussion on this topic in WH, prologue) she is a former Sitter who stepped down, and has chosen to become a Sitter again since the schism.  Her ascension to First Weaver probably prompted her first resignation as a Sitter, but we don't know when that was, only that it followed a forty year stint as Sitter.

 

So, let the speculation roll on.

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... ah, simultaneous typing.

 

For Delenn ... if either Cadsuane or Verin had removed the Oaths, they would no longer appear "ageless".  Both Cadsuane and Verin are bound by the Oath Rod, and it is most certainly not "undisputed" that Verin can lie.

 

Sorry ...

[Elgee]

If the most logical Sisters to kidnap are the young (and therefore less influential) and there are only a few of these sisters how did they manipulate their Ajahs to become their heads.

 

If we work from the premise that Cadsuane instigated it all, she would have chosen Sisters who are older and more influential.  Remember that ALL would defer to her, except the Amyrlin and Keeper (and I wouldn't be to sure of even them).  They on the other hand, even though being quite high up themselves, would start out carefully, one would think, working their way from the bottom up.

 

If one links this with the "expendable" Sitter theory (ie those younger one's can be dropped upon reunification), I would think they would pick as Sitters those who are trustworthy, not totally unsuitable, but still young enough to be "pushed aside" later.

 

It seems likely that both Verin & Cadsuane have managed to remove the Oaths. With Cadsuane she is too old even for an AS to appear as young as she does (commented when she first shows up) and with Verin it is undisputed that she can lie.

 

Caddy still has the ageless look, and she is considerably stronger than most other AS (not just a little - she is a LOT stronger than even Moiraine and Siuan were) - that would explain why she has taken longer to age.

Verin also has the ageless look, though I would bet a few pounds on her having at least experimented.  Maybe she just removed that one oath, if at all (I'm still not convinced 100% that she actually lied)

 

I can imagine Cadsuane getting Verin to work for her to hunt the Blacks and both of them removing each others Oaths so that they can search (and hide) more easily.

 

Verin was unsure of Cadsuane until the events in Far Madding.  She was on the verge of poisoning her, when Caddy decided to confide in her.

 

Edit: same here, Robert ... lol

 

 

[dyring]

That Cadsuane is older than most AS would most likely be due to her strength. Sure, the oath rod shortens your lifespan, but 650-ish years divided by almost half is still more then 550 ish years divided by half;)(650 being a guess on someone unbound by the oath and Cadsuanes strength ofcourse)

 

And Verin´s ability to lie is not certain, myself I believe she is bound still(and that she is still bound by the original oaths too if someone goes with thatone).

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

If one links this with the "expendable" Sitter theory (ie those younger one's can be dropped upon reunification), I would think they would pick as Sitters those who are trustworthy, not totally unsuitable, but still young enough to be "pushed aside" later.

 

One difficulty with that is that "expendable" Sitters have been chosen in Salidar too, where they have no access to an Oath Rod ... unless you're claiming that the Ajah Heads already had pools of "trustworthy" Sisters in reserve "just in case" ... that seems unlikely to me.

 

I think the Ajah Heads did choose women they felt were trustworthy, and young enough to be "asked to step down" ... but I don't think they used the Oath Rod to do so.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

think the Ajah Heads did choose women they felt were trustworthy, and young enough to be "asked to step down" ... but I don't think they used the Oath Rod to do so.

 

Just a thought, but A.S. being A.S. I have trouble seeing even relatively young sitters agreeing en masse to give up there seats in the Hall. After all they could argue that much of the reason why Elaida was successful in deposing Siuan and in the Rebels deciding to openly rebel can be attributed to the machinations of the "more experienced" sitters. It could happen and this may in fact be the reason for the elevation of the odd sitters but I have trouble believing that it will be a smooth and politically easy process.

[dyring]

Not important, but RAW, when thinking about the third rebel sitter being Magla´s choice, Romanda does think to herself that she atleast easily secured the place as first weaver for herself, so she is yellow ajah head among the rebels.

 

Seem to have gotten the feeling that when she left for retirement around the time of the aiel war, she was also head of he yellow, but been awhile since I read that so not 100%

[Elgee]

unless you're claiming that the Ajah Heads already had pools of "trustworthy" Sisters in reserve "just in case"

 

I would claim they they had a pool of trustworthy Sisters, yes - who sure came in handy when the pawpaw hit the fan.

 

I think the Ajah Heads did choose women they felt were trustworthy, and young enough to be "asked to step down" ... but I don't think they used the Oath Rod to do so.

 

So how would they know for sure they were trustworthy?

 

Of course, my theory falls a bit flat when one considers how did the FIRST lot of Sisters know they could trust each other, before swearing.  And how did they miss out on accidentally kidnapping a Black.

 

Anyone theories on that, anyone ?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just a thought, but A.S. being A.S. I have trouble seeing even relatively young sitters agreeing en masse to give up there seats in the Hall.

 

Um ... thats why the Ajah Heads hand picked them ... and from what we've seen, for the various Ajahs, the Ajah heads are treated basically like the Amyrlin Seat, and in some senses, are obeyed even more strictly.

 

No, I don't think the Ajah Heads will have any trouble at all getting those Sitters to step down ...

 

Not important, but RAW, when thinking about the third rebel sitter being Magla´s choice, Romanda does think to herself that she atleast easily secured the place as first weaver for herself, so she is yellow ajah head among the rebels.

 

Seem to have gotten the feeling that when she left for retirement around the time of the aiel war, she was also head of he yellow, but been awhile since I read that so not 100%

 

Thanks. I had missed that.  Looking back, its actually stated outright that she was First Weaver in the Tower before her "retirement", as well as a Sitter.  She retired and left the Tower in 973 NE.

 

Actually, Romanda, as a former Ajah Head and the oldest Sitter among the bunch, is the in the best position to cause a problem with the reunification plan (assuming it actually is as it has been speculated).  The Browns apparently follow their Ajah Head pretty strictly ... and for several reasons, I think that Janya is a better candidate than most to be exposed as Black Ajah ... so I don't think there will be trouble with the Browns, but Romanda could make trouble, if she wanted to.  I have a feeling, though, that she's starting to see things she likes in Egwene, even if she won't admit it, and will voluntarily return to "retirement" to help the plan come off.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I would claim they they had a pool of trustworthy Sisters, yes - who sure came in handy when the pawpaw hit the fan.

 

If that many people knew (and we'd have to be talking about at least a dozen or so Sisters here, at minimum) that the Black Ajah was not only real, but that these Sisters were not in it ... how could there not have been an ongoing, slowly spreading investigation?  Sorry ... thats the part I simply don't buy ... that they started this sort of investigation, and then just ... stopped ... or that they started this sort of investigation, kept going, and found nothing.  Either of those is extraordinarily unlikely, in my opinion.

 

So how would they know for sure they were trustworthy?

 

They wouldn't know "for sure", any more than anyone else anywhere else knows "for sure" that anyone is trustworthy.  Ajah Heads, Sitters, and Amyrlin Seats have been assigning Sisters to important, sensitive missions for millenia without re-checking them out on the Oath Rod every time.

 

Of course, my theory falls a bit flat when one considers how did the FIRST lot of Sisters know they could trust each other, before swearing.  And how did they miss out on accidentally kidnapping a Black.

 

Anyone theories on that, anyone ?

 

Um ... well, my theory is it didn't happen that way.

[Elgee]

Lets then leave aside for the moment the who's, how's, and when's and concentrate on what IS known:

 

None of the Ajah Heads who are talking to each other are Black.

None of the TYS's, who were hand-picked by those same Ajah Heads (we presume both at the Tower and the Rebels) are Black.

 

Now, who thinks this is merely coincidence, and who thinks it isn't? If the latter option, what do you think the plan is?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... we actually don't know for a fact that none of the Too Young Sitters are Black ... in fact, we know that one (Delana) is Black.

[wvlr]

The good news is - I don't think that she is considered to be a Sitter any more. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

While that certainly is good news, it does mean that at least one Black Ajah member made it through the initial screening ... and if one could ...

[General Cauthon]

I imagine that Egwene, after reuniting the Tower, will disband both Halls, and ask the Ajahs to choose three Sitters each, not limiting the candidates to those who are Sitters now.

Egwene would be smart enough to include the Blue and the Red in this, to prove that she treats all Ajahs equal(who knows, maybe Tsutama use the excuse to get rid of Javindhra(sp?)

[Elgee]

Beh.... I keep forgetting Delana is supposed to be too young.

 

General, Egwene can do that, but I think it's a foregone conclusion who they will pick.  That theory of RAW and Luckers is just too plausible to ignore. (It was Raw and Luckers who came up with it, wasn't it?)

 

But why do you think Tsutama would want to get rid of Javindhra ?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I doubt that Egwene will be in a position to summarily disband both Halls ... in fact, I imagine that she will be quite dependent on the Ajah Heads' goodwill for at least through Tarmon Gai'don, and probably, to a lessening extent, for years afterward. 

 

The Ajah Heads seem to have arranged things to their liking ... and assuming that the Sitters they choose to remain are not proven to be Black Ajah, Egwene has no real basis for dismissing them, nor would it improve her position to attempt to do so.

 

And, as far as I can tell, Luckers did most of work on this one.  Certainly he is the one who introduced me to it.

[DemandredFO]

How do we know the ajah-Heads aren't Black?

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

No, I don't think the Ajah Heads will have any trouble at all getting those Sitters to step down ...

 

The vote on declaring war on Elaida is I think indicative that the Too Young Sitters are going to surprise a lot of people. Yes they were hand picked but actually being in a position of power changes how people see themselves and what directions they are willing to take. Moreover, the A.S. have a really bad record of determining who is going to be maliable, i.e. Egwene. You may be right, but I think that any Ajah Head that the Too Young Sitters will simply follow orders and stepdown is in for a surprise. At the very least they will insist that the terms of reunification meet with their approval. I especially believe this because it is highly unlikely that reunification will occur after the Ajahs are cleansed of the Black Ajah and Delana's treason will be fresh in their minds. Obaying an Ajah head that has not been cleared of the suspicion of being blachk (and I think the rebels, at least, are going to have trouble believing that any particular sister could not be black) is going to to tough even for Too Younng Sitters not "corrupted" by power.

[Luckers]

How do we know the ajah-Heads aren't Black?

 

Alviarin thinks it to herself in the Path of Daggers Chapter 25 after Mesaana orders her to find out why they are meeting.

[Elgee]

 

You may be right, but I think that any Ajah Head that the Too Young Sitters will simply follow orders and stepdown is in for a surprise. At the very least they will insist that the terms of reunification meet with their approval. I especially believe this because it is highly unlikely that reunification will occur after the Ajahs are cleansed of the Black Ajah and Delana's treason will be fresh in their minds. Obaying an Ajah head that has not been cleared of the suspicion of being blachk (and I think the rebels, at least, are going to have trouble believing that any particular sister could not be black) is going to to tough even for Too Younng Sitters not "corrupted" by power.

 

I can't recall how things are done in the other Ajah's, but in the Reds everyone obeys the Highest, the only exception being voting in the Hall.  Judging from the happenings in Elaida's study when the negotiations were being discussed, I would say that the other Heads have a lot of influence and power too.

 

It has been clearly established (I think) that the Heads in the Tower have orchestrated the choosing of the TYS's, and it follows logically that, since the same pattern exists amongst the Rebels, they were responsible for that too. (Are the Heads amongst the Rebels subordinate to the Heads in the Tower? Or will there be a squable there too, upon unification?)

 

My point being: I seriously doubt the TYS's will disobey instructions from their Heads to step down, SHOULD that come to pass.

 

[CUBAREY]

+Quote:

 

I can't recall how things are done in the other Ajah's, but in the Reds everyone obeys the Highest, the only exception being voting in the Hall. 

 

If you do not follow the Ajah Heads order on how to vote in the Hall why would you follow her order to resign from the Hall, especially if you have doubts about whether she is black?