YUCK!!! As distastful as it seems - IN DEFENSE OF ELIDA!

[chuckievi]

I bid this thread adieu.

 

A HA, I caught you RAW, but really i can see both of the main points you two are making.  to be fair the stances you two are taking really aren't very far apart, you just drew your line in different spots. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, I'm bad for saying "I'm done with this thread" and then coming back.  I could go into the reasons, but I would offend people.  ;D

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

You forget that by White Tower law, collusion is illegal. Period.

 

Can you point to where in the books this is mentioned? I would be interested in looking at the actual language used.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'd be happy to.

 

In TPoD ch 16, Romanda implies that Lelaine may have possibly been colluding to have Merilille in place to pursue an unknown agenda with the Sea Folk (a matter much less serious, I think, than, say, deposing the Amyrlin and illegally raising oneself in her place).

 

To quote:

 

"We will see how the Hall stands, Lelaine," she [Romanda] said finally.  "Until the question is called, I think it best if Merilille does not meet with any of the Sitters involved in her selection.  Even a suggestion of collusion would be looked at askance.  I'm sure you will agree I should be the one to speak with her."

 

Lelaine's face paled differently.  She was not afraid, not visibly, yet Egwene could almost see her counting who might stand for her, or against.  Collusion was almost as serious as a charge of treason, and required only the lesser consensus.

 

TPoD, ch 16

 

[CUBAREY]

To the extent that collusion is defined as:

 

A secret activity undertaken by two or more people for the purpose of fraud.

 

Then what Elaida's actions were not collusion as her purpose was not to commit fraud but to depose and replace Siuan. But as I said earlier its a nit-pic-key point on the narrow definitional difference between colluded and conspired.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Since Elaida intended to replace Siuan herself, knowing that she did not intend to include the Blue Ajah (which is illegal) and to post false charges as the reason (which is fraudulent), she is guilty, even by your own narrow "lawyer" definition.  Also, every Sitter that actively supported her knew the same things, so, the action deposing of Siuan based on false charges and replacing her illegally with Elaida was, in every sense, "A secret activity undertaken by two or more people for the purpose of fraud."

 

As a lawyer, you should also be more than aware that the definitions used in US law, or even modern international law, do not necessarily apply to Randland.

[DuDZiK]

To the extent that collusion is defined as:

 

A secret activity undertaken by two or more people for the purpose of fraud.

 

Then what Elaida's actions were not collusion as her purpose was not to commit fraud but to depose and replace Siuan. But as I said earlier its a nit-pic-key point on the narrow definitional difference between colluded and conspired.

 

 

As a lawyer, you should know that 90% of legal matters is interpreting the laws in question. This is no different. People in Elaida's camp would not interpret their actions as Collusion or fraudulent, but those in Siuan's camp, or the rebel camp if you prefer, most certainly would.

[CUBAREY]

QuotE:

 

a lawyer, you should know that 90% of legal matters is interpreting the laws in question. This is no different. People in Elaida's camp would not interpret their actions as Collusion or fraudulent, but those in Siuan's camp, or the rebel camp if you prefer, most certainly would.

 

Of course the leaders of the rebel camp have already stated that Siuan's deposing met met the minimum legal requirements.  People can of course delude themselves that their actions were not "illegal". But most legal defenses are based not on the claim that the acts were legal but that you can not "legally prove" that they were illegal.

 

Moreover 100% of legal matters concerns interpretations of law. Its a tuatological statement.  There are differences as to "legal facts" and the interpretation of statutes but thats a difference on wo gets to decide (a judge decides what definition of a law is a jury decides which legal facts are true, Thus a judge instructs a jury on what the elements of crime are, the jury decides if those elements have been shown to occur in a specific case.).

[RobertAlexWillis]

Of course the leaders of the rebel camp have already stated that Siuan's deposing met met the minimum legal requirements.

 

And others have stated, without equivocation, that Elaida is a traitor who stole the office of Amyrlin.  Why don't we stick to what actually happened, rather than political statements made by people after the fact with the purpose of justifying their future actions?

 

;D

 

By the way .... could you cite for me who said that Elaida's deposing of Siuan was legal?  I'll be happy to cite for you where Moria said outright that "Elaida did steal the stole and the staff!"  (TPoD ch 19)

[Darth_Andrea]

Of course the leaders of the rebel camp have already stated that Siuan's deposing met met the minimum legal requirements.

 

And others have stated, without equivocation, that Elaida is a traitor who stole the office of Amyrlin.  Why don't we stick to what actually happened, rather than political statements made by people after the fact with the purpose of justifying their future actions?

 

;D

 

By the way .... could you cite for me who said that Elaida's deposing of Siuan was legal?  I'll be happy to cite for you where Moria said outright that "Elaida did steal the stole and the staff!"  (TPoD ch 19)

 

 

It was in The Fires Of Heaven when Siuan first reached salidar, Shiriam said it durring that first meeting. (I don't have paper copys so I can't site chapter and page)

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

 

 

 

 

 

[DuDZiK]

Moreover 100% of legal matters concerns interpretations of law. Its a tuatological statement.  There are differences as to "legal facts" and the interpretation of statutes but thats a difference on wo gets to decide (a judge decides what definition of a law is a jury decides which legal facts are true, Thus a judge instructs a jury on what the elements of crime are, the jury decides if those elements have been shown to occur in a specific case.).

 

Well that's the problem isn't it? Elaida didn't wait for there to be a formal judge or jury... she acted as judge, jury and executioner herself. How many times throughout the series, when a non-Aes Sedai says what they would like to do to an AS, has another AS said that the sister must be put on trial by the sisters of the White Tower? Elaida claimed that Siuan was guilty of certain crimes and so she should be deposed, but she never tried and proved that Siuan was actually guilty. I'm no legal expert, but that sounds pretty darn close to collusion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well that's the problem isn't it? Elaida didn't wait for there to be a formal judge or jury... she acted as judge, jury and executioner herself.

 

Thats not really the problem.  She did follow the letter of the law in removing Siuan, the decision was agreed to by the proper number of Sitters.  If her plan had stopped there, and then she had turned the process over to a fully constituted Hall, then she would have been guilty of being an overzealous sink of short-sighted ambition, but she wouldn't be guilty of collusion to break the law.  But her plan didn't stop there.  Her plan, secretly agreed upon beforehand (collusion) was to declare the Blue Ajah defunct (something they did not have authority to do) and raise herself as Amyrlin with no member of the Blue Ajah assenting (which is plain illegal).  There is precedent.  Two Red Amyrlins had been publicly removed, and without dissolving their Ajah (which means that at least one Red Sister agreed to their successors).

 

The trial and removal of Siuan, if it had occurred in a vacuum, is not by itself, illegal.  But because it took place as part of a secretly orchestrated series of events, which included other parts which are most definitely illegal (the publishing of false charges, the elimination of the Blue Ajah, the raising of Elaida with an incomplete Hall), Elaida is most definitely guilty of collusion.

 

Which is the key to all this.  Siuan's deposing, by itself, may have met the minimum requirements, but her actions as a whole were and are illegal, making her at best, a colluding usurper, and at worst, a traitor.