Cour'souvra

[trakand_01]

I'm only on book 8 so please bear with me. I have read that Lanfear returns as Cyndane and i know moridin has more than one cour'souvra around his neck so i put two and two together.

 

What would be the effect on moghedien and cyndane of having moridin placed in a cour'souvra?

 

What would be the effect on Moridin of having Moghedien and Cyndane leashed as damane?

 

Just wondered.

[Thorum]

That last could give an interesting effect in AMoL. Who knows where Moggy and Cyny are?

[Graikos]

Goo question, I must poder this.....(puts pipe in mouth)

[Dragon21]

I think only the "creator" himself would know the answer to that.  :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

What would be the effect on moghedien and cyndane of having moridin placed in a cour'souvra?

 

Well, since their cour'souvras aren't linked to Moridin personally (they're just objects that are in his possession) it would not have any direct effect on their mindtraps.  In other words, its not as if the cour'souvra forms a link between them and Moridin ... he just happens to hold them at the moment.

 

What would be the effect on Moridin of having Moghedien and Cyndane leashed as damane?

 

As far as we know there would be no additional effect.  They would function like ordinary damane ... the link formed by the a'dam is not related at all to the cour'souvra.

[trakand_01]

but would the two (the cour'souvra and the a'dam) clash at all? what if they were instructed by the holder of their cour'souvra to channel, but of course they couldnt, wearing the a'dam...?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Then the holder of the cour'souvra could crush it, obliterating their conscious ability to control their body.  But it wouldn't change the effect of the a'dam ... they still couldn't channel without the leash holder's consent.  Its sort of like how the a'dam can't override the Oath Rod ... the three Oaths don't stop the a'dam from working, but the sul'dam still can't force an Aes Sedai to use the Power as a weapon against regular people.

 

Obviously, if that situation happened (being leashed and prevented from channeling, and then ordered to channel by Moridin, holding their cour'souvra) they would pretty much be screwed.  But Moridin couldn't force them to channel ... all he could do is crush the cour'souvra.

[Ahaz Flagg]

but would the two (the cour'souvra and the a'dam) clash at all? what if they were instructed by the holder of their cour'souvra to channel, but of course they couldnt, wearing the a'dam...?

 

I am not sure how it could effect it, remember that Cyndane and The Spider can still channel as if they were normal.  Remeber the incident with Greandal, and also The Spider trying to balfire Nynaeve. So the mind traps have no effect or control on their ability to channel.  I wonder what would happen if the were leashed and in the same room as the mind traps, I assume they are Ter'Angreal also.  Although, the mind traps are not a similar Ter'Angreal as the leash.

 

[trakand_01]

I remember Egwene in her POVs saying how she felt so overwhelmingly nauseous and it was physically painful to attempt to remove the a'dam. Could Moridin influence them so much through the cour'souvra that they would bear that pain to take the a'dam off?

 

these are completely hypothetical questions, I'm just exploring the effect of one 'control' ter'angreal against another.  :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Could Moridin influence them so much through the cour'souvra that they would bear that pain to take the a'dam off?

 

I doubt it.

 

The cour'souvra isn't a control ter'angreal in the same sense that the a'dam is.  The a'dam creates an actual link between the controller and the controllee.  The cour'souvra just gives the holder the ultimate power of threat, but no actual direct control.  Even when broken, it simply makes the person very obedient.  But sometimes, no matter what you're threatened with, there are some things you simply are physically unable to do.  I think that someone would be rendered unconscious by the pain and nausea before being able to remove an a'dam from herself.

[trakand_01]

so really, all Moggy or cyndane need to do is to wait for Moridin to fall asleep, go to T'A'R (or the real world but i imagine they can do more in TAR than they can in the real world) remove the cour'souvra from around his neck and kill him?

 

Or would that not work? The cour'souvra have only been in my books for about half a book so i'm not that well versed on them!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, if Moghedien managed to physically get the cour'souvra away from Moridin without breaking it, there wouldn't be jack he could do, at least, through the cour'souvra.  Breaking it requires having it physically.

 

Of course, since you can't channel anywhere near your own cour'souvra without dying, it would be pretty hard for her to get away ... she would have to find somewhere absolutely safe, but far away, to put it, and she couldn't channel to get there.

[trakand_01]

would it be possible that Moggy and Cyndane would devise a pact, to trust each other long enough that they could go together, one (probably Moggy) could take both the cour'souvra and go far away, while Cyndane kills him, then they could meet up?

 

Presumably they'd have to wear their cour'souvra forever, or else like you say secrete it somewhere.

 

Could you hide them in T'A'R? Would that count as 'far away'? could they go to t'a'r, take the cour'souvra, hide them IN t'a'r, then go back to the real world and kill him in the flesh?

[RobertAlexWillis]

would it be possible that Moggy and Cyndane would devise a pact, to trust each other long enough that they could go together, one (probably Moggy) could take both the cour'souvra and go far away, while Cyndane kills him, then they could meet up?

 

Would it be possible, in the sense that the cour'souvra wouldn't stop them?  Sure.  Would it be possible in any practical way?  I doubt it, because I bet they wouldn't trust each other.  Also, Moghedien couldn't take her own cour'souvra "far away", except by horseback or something ... she can't channel around it.

 

I don't know whether or not Tel'aran'rhiod would count as "far away" ... I would guess that it would, but then, how are they going to get it there?  They can't open a gateway in the presence of their cour'souvra.

 

Any solution here involves them trusting someone else with their mindtrap ... and frankly, I don't think thats going to happen.

 

 

[Luckers]

I agree with Robert here. And furthermore I think so do Cyndane and Moghedian--it seems relatively clear that neither are challenging Moridin's power over them.

[Tyrell]

What would be the effect of crushing your own mindtrap?

[Gentled Ben]

Why would that differ from the effect of someone else crushing it? It would be like, personality suicide instead of personality murder, I guess.