To Live You Must Die

[BrainFireBob]

Y'know, I'll just toss in.

 

Rand was having his answers translated.

 

When first I read that little blurb, my interpretation was that Rand had to stop *fighting* LTT and instead *merge* with LTT to win- that he needed LTT's knowledge of the Bore, Shayol Ghul, and what went wrong the first time. This would result in a gestalt that wasn't actually either man. Of course, this is happening anyway, but may not be happening fast enough.

 

To live, you (the Rand part sole-and-separate) must die.

 

The only other thought on the matter I've had is that it is:

 

To live (to have a life of any sort after the Last Battle) you must die (become as one dead).

 

In which case: Fakes his death to go off and be a half-crippled but good-looking farmer somewhere with one or more of his women.

 

Body swap has its options, the Horn has its options, but those are the two interpretations that made the most sense to me, personally.

 

 

[Luckers]

I don't know, i think the prophecies make clear that in one way or another, Rand really does die. Any sort of 'faking' or misperception seems excluded.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, all the references to his death, in combination with the references to his blood, do paint a relatively clear picture in one sense ... somebody is really going to physically die.

[YoungKing]

LTT is dead, we have been told this (and shown it in the prologue to the first book). And how do you expect him to bleed blood he doesn't have?

 

If he were to take over Rand's body for good, is he still dead? Dead can mean a lot of different things, but in the sense that LTT is without life, I can't see how he could be called dead. He's a conscious being, at least I get that impression, although I don't think we know the entire extent of his existence.

 

I personally don't think he's dead.

 

YK.

[BrainFireBob]

Yes, all the references to his death, in combination with the references to his blood, do paint a relatively clear picture in one sense ... somebody is really going to physically die.

 

What's death?

 

The heart not beating, not taking breath?

 

If a human is sealed in a stasis box, are they dead?

 

Foretellings- which the Prophecies are- are poetically phrased, and it's the Foretellings which say he dies.

 

I've always leaned more toward losing his separateness from LTT, but there's room in the text for the other, so I was pitching it in for consideration.

[Luckers]

In the world of the Wheel death seems quite clearly to be the death of the physical body wherein the soul is seperated from that body.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree with Luckers on the definition of death in the World of the Wheel ... but I guess we'll all just have to see, won't we?  If we're lucky, there's a big surprise for all of us coming down the pipe ... I hope it made Brandon shout "HOLY CRAP!" when he read it!

[trakand_01]

I have no objection to the body swap theory, although on a personal level i would hate to see it happen, i'd rather Rand won fair and square and kept his own (supposedly very nice) body.

 

I understand where the theory came from, but what i dont understand is why it was Moridin that was supposed to be the 'swapee'?

[Luckers]

Well, its not very nice anymore. Two never healing wounds, a lost hand and partial blindness....

 

And the reason Moridin is the swapee is because it is the link established by their crossed balefire weaves that will facilitate the swap.

[trakand_01]

ah i see, i'm only on book 8 so havent got there yet.

 

I'm sure it'll all make sense later on!  ;D

[Shard]

ah i see, i'm only on book 8 so havent got there yet.

 

I'm sure it'll all make sense later on!  ;D

 

The crossed Balefire Streams happened in book 7, Crown of Swords. They should have listened to Egon and NOT crossed the streams. I forgot about this link and was thinking back to Moridin's orginal motivation to turning to the DO, that he was the DO's champion against the Dragon.

[purplemonster]

Where does it say the female Choedan kal was destroyed the only thing that was destroyed was the access key that allowed you to touch the cohedan kal with out dieing i just checked both books WH and CoT and it doesnt say anything about the female choedan kal being destroyed but that the time of illusion over

 

PS whats the GWG or wutever its called

 

The female Choedan Kal in Tremalking melted while cleansing saidin. Read KoD, chapter 22 again.

 

"The Great Hand on Tremalking melted. The hill where it stood reportedly is now a deep hollow. It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion. They believed it was time for them to leave this . . . this illusion"-she laughed the word bitterly- "we call the world."

 

 

 

 

I feel really stupid i never really read that chapter i kinda skipped that after it got realy boring then went to mat orwhoever was next to read about SO SRRY I FEEL REALLY DUMB AND UM TY

[Pug]

In the 7th book Min says to Rand that she sees to people (Rand and LTT) in her visions  and that they seem to merge. What i think could happen is that when and if they merge, Rand will cease to live and so will LTT. Instead they become one, with all the knowledge of the other.

 

Just something I thught of when I read the post.

 

ciao

[Darth_Andrea]

In the 7th book Min says to Rand that she sees to people (Rand and LTT) in her visions  and that they seem to merge. What i think could happen is that when and if they merge, Rand will cease to live and so will LTT. Instead they become one, with all the knowledge of the other.

 

Just something I thught of when I read the post.

 

ciao

 

Actually she dosen't say it's LTT I don't have it with me to give the exact quote but I'm sure Luckers or Robert will. Anyway to my understanding most people seem to connect this viewing with Rand and Moridin/Ishy. It's one of the basis for the body swap idea, and given this odd link between the two I think it's more likely than anything else but of corse I'm no expert by any means. Just my two bits :)

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I live but to serve:

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

Min to Rand, ACoS ch 33.

 

Min does not know who the other man is, and neither do we, for sure ... but the case for Moridin is probably the best one out there.  Whether "merge into one another" actually means exchanging bodies is debatable, but certainly possible.  This viewing was before the "crossing the streams" incident in Shadar Logoth.