The One Thing That Drives Me Nuts

[anamul]

I still say Egewene is a F(*&*%^@#Bi*)*&70....Um sorry couldn't resist.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[DuDZiK]

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I'm talking about social interaction here, not heroic action or what you should do when backed into a corner by enemies and evil.

 

All the major characters are a bit paranoid.  All see darkfriends, the Choosen, or simple self-interested ninny's around every corner.  Which is probably a good thing as they are around every corner.  Since you can really only totally trust two or three people at most your "social" interactions with the general world is going to be quite slanted.  And to the fact that all the main characters are quite powerful or important in there own right and we get a story where characters tend to be curt with each other and untrusting.

 

What about those people they can and do trust? Look at Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha, Rand, Perrin, Mat and Brigitte(sp?)... and maybe to a lesser extent Siuan and Leane; They trust each other completely (at least in not being darkfriends) and yet they are perhaps the best examples of people trying to bully each other and trying to be the 'alpha' of the group.

 

 

:P = joking, for future reference.

 

And I love how you leave out the rest of the post where I was serious, and essentially said that they DO count and that they are no better than the human characters in the fashion I described.

 

Heh, I think he was joking too...at least, I can't picture anyone using the term "ogierphobia" and being serious :p

Thank you, Professor. You are a scholar and a gentleman.

 

Hehe, sorry. When you don't know a person at all, and you can only read their words and not their tone of voice or facial expressions, it's hard to know when someone's joking and when they aren't. :-\

[CUBAREY]

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Look at Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha, Rand, Perrin, Mat and Brigitte(sp?)... and maybe to a lesser extent Siuan and Leane

 

 

1. Nynaeve:  She is older then Egwene and Elayne, babysat for Egwene and was not only was her Wisdom but Egwene was here pupil. Things change then Egwene becomes her equal then her superior.  Elayne is the Daughter-heir, raised to command (and use people even her friends). Egwene didn't like being thought of a little girl by Nyneave and becomes the Amyrlen.  This would explain their bullying of each other.

 

2. Rand, Perrin, Mat.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn, he has learned the lesson that he must use people (sometimes use them up) even his friends.  The only time he has bullied Perrin and Mat is when he needed to do something and the were balking at the idea. Rand's tossing of Perrin can be explained by remembering that it was a "show" to hide Perrin's real mission and by noting that in the fake break-up scene Perrin choose the one subject that would get under Rand's skin (it was a few days after Dumai Wells and he had been  pestered about his treatment of the captured A.S. from all sides).  Mat (especially through the last time he saw Rand) wanted no part of Rand, TG or A.S. (being a smart man) and had to be bullied into agreeing to do everything (even when he choose to do something by himself his POV's prove he had to convince himself).  Nyneave's age and former position explain much of her views about the boys. Rand (see above) and Mat's treatment of the girls stems from his belief that they do not appreciate what he does.

 

3.Bridgette-- Elayne has a preconceived notion on the relative power structure between an A.S. and a Wardor, unfortunately for her the fact that Bridgette is a women effects the Wardor bond. Moreover Bridgette sees herself as the older sister who knows more about the real world. Actually there bullying of each other reminds me of my two sitter's relationship (they struggle for Alpha status between themselves but unite against me ;D >:()).

 

4. Siuan and Leane. Well, one was the former Amyrlen the other her lieutenant. Bullying and scheming were ingrained in them for ten years- you think they are going to change now?

 

  RJ's view of distrust is also instructive; here is a quote from a post where RJ was answering questions:

 

[iFor Mark A, there are plenty of reasons for men and women to have a certain degree of distrust, though the fact that many Aes Sedai have Warders and good relationships with them shows that it isn’t all mistrust.  How much trust do most men and women have for the opposite gender here and now?  I trust Harriet with my life, but look at how most people are.  Look at most women’s views of men, and most men’s views of women.  There is a lot of distrust right there.  As for the Forsaken, they don’t trust anybody.  Gender doesn’t enter into it.][/i]

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27

 

Thanks to RAW for posting entire RJ post in another thread.

[Orange Fescue]

Hehe, sorry. When you don't know a person at all, and you can only read their words and not their tone of voice or facial expressions, it's hard to know when someone's joking and when they aren't. :-\

 

No worries. Even in person, people have misunderstood me on many occasions. It's hard being a smart-ass. So...very...hard. (insert tragic, put-upon sigh)

[DuDZiK]

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Look at Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha, Rand, Perrin, Mat and Brigitte(sp?)... and maybe to a lesser extent Siuan and Leane

 

 

1. Nynaeve:  She is older then Egwene and Elayne, babysat for Egwene and was not only was her Wisdom but Egwene was here pupil. Things change then Egwene becomes her equal then her superior.  Elayne is the Daughter-heir, raised to command (and use people even her friends). Egwene didn't like being thought of a little girl by Nyneave and becomes the Amyrlen.  This would explain their bullying of each other.

 

I don't know about your friends, but none of mine were bullies or tried to assert themselves as the 'dominant' figure.

 

I can understand you explanation... to an extent. Elayne showed at times that she would treat Egwene or Nynaeve as equals if not superiors, so the whole "she's the daughter-heir" thing doesn't fly with me. Furthermore, being 'superior' does not mean you have to bully people, especially your friends who are amongst the few you know you can trust in the tough times.

 

Secondly, what about the way they treat people other than themselves, such as Brigitte, Perrin, Mat, or Perrin? or Thom and Juilin for that matter?

 

2. Rand, Perrin, Mat.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn, he has learned the lesson that he must use people (sometimes use them up) even his friends.  The only time he has bullied Perrin and Mat is when he needed to do something and the were balking at the idea.

 

And did he ever once try and explain to them why he wanted them to do what he wanted them to do? As far as I know, he only ever said: "Do this", and if they asked why he'd throw a sh*t-fit. You'd think that someone as important as they are, and his closest friends besides, would deserve an explanation and not bullying.

 

And what about their behaviour with the rest of the people on the list? The women, and the more minor characters as well?

 

Mat (especially through the last time he saw Rand) wanted no part of Rand, TG or A.S. (being a smart man) and had to be bullied into agreeing to do everything (even when he choose to do something by himself his POV's prove he had to convince himself).

 

 

And the fact that he has a right to choose what he wants to do never entered into their minds, or yours for that matter? And again, no one ever tries to explain things to Mat. They all see him as some childish, selfish, scumbag who will as soon run from you if you ask him a favour.

 

Nyneave's age and former position explain much of her views about the boys. Rand (see above) and Mat's treatment of the girls stems from his belief that they do not appreciate what he does.

 

No it doesn't. I don't care if she was 1,000,000 years older than them, bullying people is not right or even the best way to get people to do what you want.

 

3.Bridgette-- Elayne has a preconceived notion on the relative power structure between an A.S. and a Wardor, unfortunately for her the fact that Bridgette is a women effects the Wardor bond. Moreover Bridgette sees herself as the older sister who knows more about the real world. Actually there bullying of each other reminds me of my two sitter's relationship (they struggle for Alpha status between themselves but unite against me ;D >:()).

 

I wouldn't condone such behaviour from sisters any more than I would from these two.

 

4. Siuan and Leane. Well, one was the former Amyrlen the other her lieutenant. Bullying and scheming were ingrained in them for ten years- you think they are going to change now?

 

I don't care, my point is is that's frustrating that they were like this in the first place, and that there are so many other characters who were all like this in the first place with no changes in behaviour whether it be best friend, mild aquaintance, complete stranger, mild rival, or outright enemy.

 

  RJ's view of distrust is also instructive; here is a quote from a post where RJ was answering questions:

 

[iFor Mark A, there are plenty of reasons for men and women to have a certain degree of distrust, though the fact that many Aes Sedai have Warders and good relationships with them shows that it isn’t all mistrust.  How much trust do most men and women have for the opposite gender here and now?  I trust Harriet with my life, but look at how most people are.  Look at most women’s views of men, and most men’s views of women.  There is a lot of distrust right there.  As for the Forsaken, they don’t trust anybody.  Gender doesn’t enter into it.][/i]

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27

 

I'm not talking about distrust either. I'm talking about a consistent... VERY consistent form of behaviour and interaction between characters of all sorts. My issue is that it's so consistent it's frustrating.

 

It's also frustrating because I dislike such behaviour in the first place. You seem to agree that this bullying and such goes on, but try to justify it. Does this mean you either like or condone such behaviour? Or are you trying to defend the author? I can understand the latter and would hold no grudges against you, but I would just like to know.

[Tyrell]

Siuan and Leane don't bully eachother, they only fight in public to maintain their image of hating eachother so the Hall / Sheriam's Circle don't suspect them of schemeing.

 

I don't really see Birgitte as bullying anyone, she only stops Elayne from dooing stupid things and acts in her best interests, trying to protect her as any friend / warder should.

 

The entire Aes Sedai power structure is completely screwed up though, in general.

[CUBAREY]

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It's also frustrating because I dislike such behaviour in the first place. You seem to agree that this bullying and such goes on, but try to justify it. Does this mean you either like or condone such behaviour?

 

 

Let's see I come from a very/i]politically opinionated ethnic group (Cuban-Americans) and family. My father toughened us intellectually by using the Socratic method of teaching and I went to a law school that used the Socratic method  exclusively the first year.  Thus, I find attempts to "bully" someone into doing want you want or thinking a certain way quite natural.  I find those who view heated debate  repulsive as usually also devoid of both a backbone and self-confidence. :o :o :o  Is this a biased view, of course.

 

Dudzik its normal human behavior that one who believes to be a superior position will expect those under him/her to follow orders without having to explain. Have you ever had a boss?  Moreover, when faces with crisis situations or new surroundings people tend to be short with each other and find others' refusal to "see reason" as infuriating.

 

Therefore I am both saying that it was RJ's intent to show his characters as "bullying" and mistrustful but that he was mirroring real world relations.  Now he takes it to an extreme but that I understand to be the type of "theatrical" device used in fiction.  

 

Now to expect the main characters to reason with each other, give their reasons for their decisions and be scrupulously polite would not only be unbelievable but would make for a boring book.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Something else to keep in mind, as we read this story ... these are not normal people, in normal circumstances.  They are all basically world leaders.  They are the people responsible for hundreds or thousands ... or even millions of lives.  They are people whose decisions are shaping the world.  These are definitely alpha type personalities ... and the consequences of failure are very, very high.  Its not like these people are having colossal arguments over what flavor of Ben and Jerry's to cry into.

 

As for the little things that they do end up bullying people over ... when 90 percent of your decisions are earth-shaking, giving orders gets to be a habit.  Its not particularly attractive, but it is realistic.  Especially for people like Rand, who are pretty much constantly surrounded by enemies, both open and concealed, showing any weakness is tantamount to an invitation to rebellion, and in authoritative, autocratic systems that exist, it becomes dangerous to bend in anything.

[DuDZiK]

My point is that if you look at the interaction between characters - friends even - when decisions do NOT determine the lives of the many, the pattern continues. It's so that when leaders bully for the sake of leading it makes it seem even worse, because I have learned that they would bully anyone for the sake of bullying even if the matter wasn't of any importance at all.

 

Let's see I come from a very/i]politically opinionated ethnic group (Cuban-Americans) and family. My father toughened us intellectually by using the Socratic method of teaching and I went to a law school that used the Socratic method  exclusively the first year.  Thus, I find attempts to "bully" someone into doing want you want or thinking a certain way quite natural.  I find those who view heated debate  repulsive as usually also devoid of both a backbone and self-confidence. :o :o :o  Is this a biased view, of course.

 

Fair enough. This certainly explains our point of contention  ;)

 

Dudzik its normal human behavior that one who believes to be a superior position will expect those under him/her to follow orders without having to explain. Have you ever had a boss?  Moreover, when faces with crisis situations or new surroundings people tend to be short with each other and find others' refusal to "see reason" as infuriating.

 

I would argue that it's not 'normal'. You may think it's normal from your experience, but my experience is quite different. I have been taught by my schools, by my parents, and by other books I have read that being honest and open to people who are following you is the best: it makes them trust you, it makes them like you, and both make them more willing to follow you and more willing to fight for/with you and with greater energy. Bullying, meanwhile, only makes them act out of fear, and fear clouds a persons reason. In trying to please you and avoid being punished/bullied, they may go too far or do something ridiculous and contrary to what you might want. Either that, or they come to hate you, distrust you, abandon you, and/or when they do fight for you they do so half-heartedly.

 

Personally, I consider myself a realist. I think that some circumstances might warrant using force and/or no explanation (a.k.a. essential bullying), but I also think they are few and far between.

 

Therefore I am both saying that it was RJ's intent to show his characters as "bullying" and mistrustful but that he was mirroring real world relations.  Now he takes it to an extreme but that I understand to be the type of "theatrical" device used in fiction. 

 

As a theatrical device, or a means of making a point, I already stated that I can understand such a thing. However, what I don't understand is how he focused on it so much that he, in my opinion, went WAY too far to the point if driving me almost insane. I mean he could have made his point with a few characters; hell Cadsuane and Sorilea alone make that point for me, and I'd still be frustrated with them. He could also have been more diverse, and had the other side of the coin where people did explain and reason with their followers, and maybe gone inbetween and done various gradients of both bullying and explaining. My problem is he didn't; or if he did it was so overwhelmed by the bullying factor that I almost didn't notice it.

 

Now to expect the main characters to reason with each other, give their reasons for their decisions and be scrupulously polite would not only be unbelievable but would make for a boring book.

 

Who said anything about being polite? You don't have to be polite to explain things :P

 

I must ask you, have you ever read Terry Goodkind's series "Sword of Truth"?

[CUBAREY]

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I must ask you, have you ever read Terry Goodkind's series "Sword of Truth"?

 

Unfortunately, I read the first 3 and 1/2 books.  Then I realized he was a hack butchering Ayn Rand's "objectivist" philosophy in his "Art".

 

 

To your other points, Leaders don't normally explain (it only confuses the followers) they lead (they may inspire or use the bully pulpit but there role is to get there followers to act in a given way).  As has been said I'd rather be respected, but better feared then liked.  Does this style have shortcomings, obviously--but look at the world around you.  As to how your parents and schools have taught you to be open and honest, two points.  Not, giving explanations does not mean you lie, if you expect obedience you have little need to lie.  Second, you seem a well rounded, intelligent person "socialized to function well in a prosperous liberal-democratic society. Rand, and the others were "schooled" to lead men in a desperate life and death struggle. I, being the product of revolution, tyrants and betrayal was "schooled" to respect (i.e. fear) power and question those with "altruistic" motives.

[DuDZiK]

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I must ask you, have you ever read Terry Goodkind's series "Sword of Truth"?

 

Unfortunately, I read the first 3 and 1/2 books.  Then I realized he was a hack butchering Ayn Rand's "objectivist" philosophy in his "Art".

 

That may be your opinion, but you should not state it as fact. If you know of and understand what objectivism is, you should know the difference between subjective and objective ;)

 

My point by bringing up that series is that if you look at that series, all of it, you will see that everyone who is in a position of leadership - even the bad guys - will at least occasionally explain their plans to those under them. This in no way made the story boring; the sales figures of the series is a testament to that fact. In fact the explanations and speeches the characters made were very inspiring, as felt by millions of readers around the world.

 

To your other points, Leaders don't normally explain (it only confuses the followers)

 

You don't have a very high opinion about the intelligence of humanity do you?

 

they lead (they may inspire or use the bully pulpit but there role is to get there followers to act in a given way).

 

Depends on the kind of leader they are. The role of the leader in a democratic society is to lead by example, but conform to the desires of the people. Similarly, the role of any leader in any sort of democratic grouping is the same, yet at the same time they do have a greater authority over them. Explaining their plans/goals in now way detracts from that.

 

In fact even if they don't feel the need to explain to their followers, they still don't have to resort to bullying. There are other means, you know.

 

As has been said I'd rather be respected, but better feared then liked.  Does this style have shortcomings, obviously--but look at the world around you.  As to how your parents and schools have taught you to be open and honest, two points.  Not, giving explanations does not mean you lie, if you expect obedience you have little need to lie.  Second, you seem a well rounded, intelligent person "socialized to function well in a prosperous liberal-democratic society. Rand, and the others were "schooled" to lead men in a desperate life and death struggle. I, being the product of revolution, tyrants and betrayal was "schooled" to respect (i.e. fear) power and question those with "altruistic" motives.

 

That's all well and good, and at least you admit that it's only your view and your schooling. I don't claim to say my way is the best, but neither would I expect you to say the same. By the way, using reason and logic is suitable for all situations, you just have to make sure you're using real reason and logic.

 

But the way I was schooled and you were schooled and the way we were raised has nothing to do with this story. It's a fantasy novel, it doesn't have to be believable, it just has to be compelling. His story is compelling, his world is compelling, his characters are usually compelling, but when I see the sort of behaviour over and over and over and over and over and over and (for the sake of saving time and space I'll cut this short) over I am not compelled. I am actually turned off. Do you find all that sort of behaviour compelling? Would you have found it any less compelling if he decided to balance out his bully-like behaviour with more friendly and reasoning behaviour? Not get rid of it entirely, but use more diverse behaviour, maybe a mixture of the two with other kinds of behaviour, maybe a mixture or gradient of a bunch. Would you be turned off by that?

 

And Rand was not 'schooled' to lead people in a life and death struggle. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve and some others were schooled to be farmers, blacksmiths, traders, wisdoms and/or wives.  In fact let's use the Two Rivers pre-Moiraine as an example. THAT place is FULL of bullying and 'alpha' struggles. They have no need to use fear to lead, in fact they usually have very little need to rule or lead at all, yet once again we find this sort of behaviour. Why? It is not necessary in the least.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

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You don't have a very high opinion about the intelligence of humanity do you?

 

As a whole, I find that what sets us apart from the other animals is that we take pleasure in inflicting pain in other members of our species.  If biologists are to be belived modern man has been a couple of billion years in the making, "civilization" is maybe ten thousand years old-scratch a human and you find a meat eating brute.

 

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That may be your opinion, but you should not state it as fact. If you know of and understand what objectivism is, you should know the difference between subjective and objective

 

If you know the debate between "subjective" and "objective" truth you know that while objective truth may exiist it is unknowable by humans. My statement was obviously sarcastic so its "subjective" nature was plain on its face. :P :P

 

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the sales figures of the series is a testament to that fact. In fact the explanations and speeches the characters made were very inspiring, as felt by millions of readers around the world.

 

The same could be said of Hitler's Mein Kampf and Mao's Little Red Book. Mein Kampf was a best seller and "inspired" the murder of 6 million jews. Mao's work "inspired" the "Cultural Revolution" which is another example of humanuity's intelligence.

 

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[ihe role of the leader in a democratic society is to lead by example, but conform to the desires of the people.][/i]

 

 

Have you read American History? Taken a class in political science?

Have you heard of Lincoln, or FDR?

 

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In fact even if they don't feel the need to explain to their followers, they still don't have to resort to bullying. There are other means, you know.

 

Yes, usually futile, deceptive or take too long.

 

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But the way I was schooled and you were schooled and the way we were raised has nothing to do with this story. It's a fantasy novel, it doesn't have to be believable, it just has to be compelling.

 

Even fantasy has to be based certain universally accepted concepts. The Universe created must be internally consistent, the motivations and actions of characters must comport with the reader's sense of reason or at least be internally logical.  What a reader believes to be reasonable or logical depends on his own worldview, therefore, our experiences play a central role on how we see and judge the story.

 

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[iDo you find all that sort of behaviour compelling? ][/i]

 

I find it realistc.

 

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In fact let's use the Two Rivers pre-Moiraine as an example. THAT place is FULL of bullying and 'alpha' struggles.

 

Nyneave's behavior can be explained by her being seen to be too young to be the Wisdom.  Cenn Buie is a cantankerous old man that has to be corrected from his attempts at bullying.  But you miss the point RJ is pointing to the fact that even in idylic settings mistrust, misunderstanding and bullying are present because thet are universal constants. The same as with laziness, greed, envy and simple stupidity.

 

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And Rand was not 'schooled' to lead people in a life and death struggle. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve and some others were schooled to be farmers, blacksmiths, traders, wisdoms and/or wives.

 

They have also spent the last 2+ years in the "school of hard knocks"

that has taught them to be paranoid, mistrustful and opinionated.

[DuDZiK]

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You don't have a very high opinion about the intelligence of humanity do you?

 

As a whole, I find that what sets us apart from the other animals is that we take pleasure in inflicting pain in other members of our species.  If biologists are to be belived modern man has been a couple of billion years in the making, "civilization" is maybe ten thousand years old-scratch a human and you find a meat eating brute.

 

This is all the answer I will henceforth need. Given our differences, I see no reason to continue this discussion when it will either go in circles or off on unrelated tangents. You aren't frustrated by people constantly bullying each other in the series because you think it's a good thing, and I am because I think it's a bad thing. That's all that needs to be said between us on this matter.

[CUBAREY]

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You aren't frustrated by people constantly bullying each other in the series because you think it's a good thing, and I am because I think it's a bad thing.

 

Nope, I think its a universal trait in humanity. I think its a good thing sometimes (Lincoln persuing the Civil War, FDR doing everything he could to help Britain prior to Pearl Harbor)  a bad others (Concentration Camps, Gulags, etc.). My parents bullying me to eat spinache (good),  my mother bullying me into taking out the garbage (bad). I make no general moral judgment on bullying (an extremme view I admit) but that does not detract on the worthiness of a reasoned debate on the merits of including  human frailty as a major theme in a fantasy series. Or, do you discuss issues only with those who agree with you?

[DuDZiK]

Or, do you discuss issues only with those who agree with you?

 

And yet there I was having a long discussion with you and others about a part of the books we disagreed with... ::)

 

I do enjoy discussions with people even when our opinions are night and day, but at the same time I have learned to recognize a pointless discussion.

[burog25c]

all of the bullying has grown boring. no one ever changes tactics or methods. shrug... in some ways it does mirror life.. maybe toooo much, considering that THE FATE OF THE WHOLD DANG WORLD IS AT STAKE!  ;)

[trakand_01]

Anyone else noticed its the same few who argue? Sure some others retort back (myself included) but its the same few who start it all...

[CUBAREY]

Anyone else noticed its the same few who argue? Sure some others retort back (myself included) but its the same few who start it all...

 

 

:o :o >:( >:( :P :P :P :-* :-*

[trakand_01]

Your point?

[CUBAREY]

but its the same few who start it all...

 

;) ;)

[Matjess]

The truth is (well, MY truth anyway...) is that sometimes humanity is utterly insufferable, and in my short (52) years and long travels, I have met individuals to match virtually every character in tWoT. Some are so amusingly predictable as to be attractive, some so downright dangerous as to be avoided at all costs. We are all characters in the book. Jordan's (Jim's) vision is so accurate it gives me deja vu. The clothes may be different, the weapons, the names of the countries, the idiom, even the skin colour, but it's us, and our own Last Battle looms large.

We're all right and we're all wrong.

[Cillian]

The truth is (well, MY truth anyway...) is that sometimes humanity is utterly insufferable, and in my short (52) years and long travels, I have met individuals to match virtually every character in tWoT. Some are so amusingly predictable as to be attractive, some so downright dangerous as to be avoided at all costs. We are all characters in the book. Jordan's (Jim's) vision is so accurate it gives me deja vu. The clothes may be different, the weapons, the names of the countries, the idiom, even the skin colour, but it's us, and our own Last Battle looms large.

We're all right and we're all wrong.

 

*thumbs up*

I like the way you put that.