Cyndane/Lanfear

[Kadere]

In Winter's Heart there is a passage from the PoV of Cyndane where she thinks things that only Lanfear would think. From this it has been determined that Cyndane is Lanfear reborn, like Agnoir and Balthamel were reborn as Aran'gar and Osan'gar. The question then becomes why was Lanfear changed to Cyndane, from what happened to Agnior and Balthamel, some believe that she must have died sometime during or after her meeting with the Finns. The discussion is not weither she CAN return, but how and when.

[Jedimuppet]

In Winter's Heart there is a passage from the PoV of Cyndane where she thinks things that only Lanfear would think. From this it has been determined that Cyndane is Lanfear reborn' date=' like Agnoir and Balthamel were reborn as Aran'gar and Osan'gar. The question then becomes why was Lanfear changed to Cyndane, from what happened to Agnior and Balthamel, some believe that she must have died sometime during or after her meeting with the Finns. The discussion is not weither she CAN return, but how and when.[/quote']

 

I just want to know who selected the Cyndane is not Lanfear option in the poll. I'm curious if that was a joke, or if that person believes that, and why.

J

[Kadere]

Oh, well for that I have no idea.

[biabeli]

I am not aware of any definitive reference that clearly identifies Lanfear as Cyndane.

 

Please advise me if I have missed it.

[Graendals favourite]

That reminds me of many discussions on Asmodean. One learns to choose words carefully. Well, as the other, it's as clear as it gets. Try Cyndane's thoughts on why she wants to kill or see Rand die especially in WH: With the Choe'dan Kal.

[Kadere]

She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. sh would have faced the Great Lord-faced the Creator!-with him. She would ahve shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her! (641, WH, With the Choedan Kal)

 

At least some of the others were here-she had seen those fountaining fires speed elsewhere than at her; she could feel saidar being spun at more than one place, spun with fury-but she prayed to the Great Lord that she would reach Lews Therin first (645, WH, With the Choedan Kal)

 

Both of these quotes make it pretty obvious that she is in fact Lanfear. Lanfear is the only one who constantly refers to Rand as Lews Therin, and she also the only one to have tried to make a deal with him to over through the DO. Also she is the only one to have been in love with him.

[Jedimuppet]

She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. sh would have faced the Great Lord-faced the Creator!-with him. She would ahve shared the power with him' date=' let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her! (641, WH, With the Choedan Kal)

 

At least some of the others were here-she had seen those fountaining fires speed elsewhere than at her; she could feel saidar being spun at more than one place, spun with fury-but she prayed to the Great Lord that she would reach Lews Therin first (645, WH, With the Choedan Kal)[/quote']

 

How about the one where she straight up says she was held by the finns?

J

 

Both of these quotes make it pretty obvious that she is in fact Lanfear. Lanfear is the only one who constantly refers to Rand as Lews Therin, and she also the only one to have tried to make a deal with him to over through the DO. Also she is the only one to have been in love with him.

[Luckers]

The only reason spelling could equate to silliness, and other negative adjectives you tend to use when you don't clearly see where someone is coming from is that it could be considered a "mode of speech" to point out others shortcomings, as it seems you like to do.

 

I do not like to do anything of the sort. I said that i found the idea that Moiraine would spare the strength sever her bond with Lan when fighting Lanfear silly, and went on to show why. You percieved a personal attack where none was.

 

The fact that they aren't actually shortcomings, and only represent opinions that diverge from your only serves to increase the irritation factor. It's one thing if someone doesn't understand or agree with a point, and says so. It's quite another for them to say it's tiresome, "warisome" (did you mean worrisome, and if so why are you worried?), silly, stupid, whatever you pick. That behavior is far more tiresome to me than someone not agreeing with me.

 

I meant that it was tiresome (i said warriesome, meant warysome) to repeat my reasoning for a point. Not that you or your ideas were tiresome. I don't mind opinions diverging from mine at all, what i was commenting on was i said something along the lines of "I don't think Moiraine cut the bond intentionally, because of these reasons... blah blah blah". And you replied with "Aes Sedai can intentionally sever the bond." with my post as a quote, indicating to me that that was a response to my statement. I then repeated what i had said, with the addage of the fact that i had already said this in my previous post.

 

In what way was that an attack of your opinion? Or you personally for that matter. That you percieved a personal assault is none of my concern, though my wording was perhaps a tad blunt (and for that i do apologise) But for you to then draw conclusions about my nature... that i would be as petty as to dismiss you as stupid because you disagree with me... worries me somewhat. My comments were never ment to indicate that in any sense.

 

In any case perhaps we should move on.

 

I didn't think Elyas' bond was severed; I agree with your above statement. The only reason I brought that topic into the discussions was an assertion that we could make assumptions about the severing of a bond because it could only occur in specific instances. Since that poster hadn't mentioned the voluntary possibility, I felt it needed to be brought up.

 

Is this refering to my suppostition? If it is, A) No, Elyas' bond was never severed, though it has faded somewhat to the sense that she is still aside. B) I never said the severing of the bond could only occur in specific instances, i just said that 1) Intentional severing does not cause death consumption. 2)Moiraine would not have had the strength or the chance to sever her bond with Lan during a fight with Lanfear anyway.

 

If not a refernce to my point, its still logically viable to assume that the voluntary severing of the bond is not what took place. Specifically point 1 shows this, and as evidence of point 1...

 

1. RJ has said Aes Sedai release their warders if they know they themselves are dying, and that they do this to spare the warder the death consumption.

 

2. Therefore even if Lan believed Moiraine died... even if she HAD died, if she had managed to sever the bond intentionally first, he wouldn't have experienced the death consumption. (which it should be noted is an effect, not normal mourning. Lan was not just sad at Moiraines death. This effect and price has been mentioned many times in the series, and evidenced particularily by Suine, who's reaction to the bond snapping occured only when she regained her ability to channel, proving it is not an emotional, but power based effect.)

 

3. Severing a channeler from the True Source severs her bond, and gives the warder the death consumption, as evidenced by the three Aes Sedai Rand stilled.

[Jedimuppet]

The fact remains that we have two phenomona that link only with stilling' date=' occuring after the event in Cairhein. There was the severing on Moiraine's bond, which is caused only by death or stilling[/quote']

 

That's the comment to which I'm referring. You pretty clearly state that there are only two ways for Moiraine's bond to have been severed.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this tangent.

J

[Luckers]

Ah I see. The problem is in that i don't concider the voluntary release a severing. It doesn't have the same effect, the effect experienced by Lan. Thats why i stated two, because for the events described there are only two possible causes, death or stilling. The voluntary release was removed as a possible cause because it didn't match the events, and so i didn't count it. A miscommunication then.

[Mardragon]

I thought that the severing of the bond could simply have been caused by the destruction of the doorway (regardless of whether or not Moiraine was severed) since the Eelfinn live in a different world. I.e. when the doorway ter'rangreal existed there was a link between the two worlds. That of course follows the assumption that the warder bond is like a thread linking the two parties (Aes Sedai and warder).

 

When the bond snapped, it obviously had the same affect on Lan as it would if the person died.

 

My apologies if this has already been brought up.

[Luckers]

There remain other links between the worlds. The door in Tear and the Tower of Genji. Not to mention Skimming Aes Sedai have been in other worlds entirely without it affecting their bond.

[Jedimuppet]

There remain other links between the worlds. The door in Tear and the Tower of Genji. Not to mention Skimming Aes Sedai have been in other worlds entirely without it affecting their bond.

 

I don't think we've ever seen an example of an Aes Sedai going to another world/dimension, having the portal/doorway destroyed, and leaving her warder behind.

 

I think the previous poster's point is valid.

J

[Luckers]

Skimming. The Ways. The Portal Stones with Verin. The last one in particular, she was gone for four months from this world without thomas going crazy. Aside from which the bond is a non-physical reality, why should it be bound in anyway by the laws of physical speration. And there is the fact that other pathways still exist, so there was a portal between the two worlds.

[Jedimuppet]

Skimming. The Ways. The Portal Stones with Verin. The last one in particular' date=' she was gone for four months from this world without thomas going crazy. Aside from which the bond is a non-physical reality, why should it be bound in anyway by the laws of physical speration. And there is the fact that other pathways still exist, so there was a portal between the two worlds.[/quote']

 

You still haven't shown an example where the sole method of entry to that world was destroyed.

J

[Luckers]

The sole method of entry into finnland hasn't been destroyed.

[HighLordXanthus]

The big reasons that points to the finns being the ones responsible for lanfear/cyndane's new form and ability level are these. From cyndane's pov,

 

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)

That gives first hand info on her lesser ability, and that it originated IN finland. Also, that she atleast survived there and the battle with moiraine to be held there.

 

If she was thereafter killed, why would the DO transmigrate her into a new body. We assume from the fact that she is mindtrapped, that the DO knows that she had planned/hoped to supplant the DO with rand and the choedan kal. That is big time treason, worse than what Asmodeon did, and he was never given a new body.

 

WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN, DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" (LoC, prologue)

Again, why would the DO reincarnate a traitorous servant?

 

Another is that even if she was stilled, then killed, apon recieving a new body(assuming the DO did in fact transmigrate her), she would have no need for the healing of being stilled. It would be ludicrous to think that injury would follow her through death. Then where did the lessening of ability come from? Why would the DO purposefully remake a weaker tool? It would be better to have the strongest possible tool, then the mindtrap as a control device.

 

To my logic it seems more reasonable to think that the finns imposed a price on lanfear/cyndane (form and power) for her life, then later linked to the mindtrap after her release/rescue from the finns.

[Jedimuppet]

The big reasons that points to the finns being the ones responsible for lanfear/cyndane's new form and ability level are these. From cyndane's pov' date='

 

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)

That gives first hand info on her lesser ability, and that it originated IN finland. Also, that she atleast survived there and the battle with moiraine to be held there.

 

If she was thereafter killed, why would the DO transmigrate her into a new body. We assume from the fact that she is mindtrapped, that the DO knows that she had planned/hoped to supplant the DO with rand and the choedan kal. That is big time treason, worse than what Asmodeon did, and he was never given a new body.

 

WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN, DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" (LoC, prologue)

Again, why would the DO reincarnate a traitorous servant?

 

Another is that even if she was stilled, then killed, apon recieving a new body(assuming the DO did in fact transmigrate her), she would have no need for the healing of being stilled. It would be ludicrous to think that injury would follow her through death. Then where did the lessening of ability come from? Why would the DO purposefully remake a weaker tool? It would be better to have the strongest possible tool, then the mindtrap as a control device.

 

To my logic it seems more reasonable to think that the finns imposed a price on lanfear/cyndane (form and power) for her life, then later linked to the mindtrap after her release/rescue from the finns.

 

No, it only gives info as to her power level *before* she was held.

 

I think the battle may very well have been interrupted as soon as they passed through the gate. As far as Cyndane being reincarnated while Asmo wasn't, that's simple. I think Asmo died of BF. He doesn't have many powerful channelers, and he's not throwing any of them away.

 

Of course, he's not omniscient, so we don't know exactly what he knows of Lanfear's crimes. So, of course, we cant' predict how he would react.

 

Then of course there's the fact that she's not the same person. No one recognizes her. No one thinks of her as vaguely similar to Lanfear. She is not in the same body.

 

I don't think she was capable of escaping from Finnland. Any questions touching ont he shadow are disastrous, remember. I think she met disaster, alright.

J

[Jedimuppet]

The sole method of entry into finnland hasn't been destroyed.

 

I'll concede that; I thought about the tower afterwards. However, the portal through which she went was destroyed as opposed to deactivated.

 

I have to admit that my first thought was, she can't be dead....what if she's just in such a far away reality that the bond cannot be sustained? That's still kind of where I'm coming from.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

They fell into foxland not snakeland. It was the snakes you ask questions to, not the foxes. It is more than possible that they both have the same rules about the shadow, but I see it more as the snakes give answers similarly to how min sees viewings. shapes and colors about a person. in doing so, they feed off of a person's aura. that is their payment. so any question of the shadow would be tainted. much like ordering a big mac only to find maggots in it. but the foxes operate in a very different way. they give to you and take from you. a gift and a price. they must get some kind of substanance from this. also, when mat went in, remember how they acted so hungry? talking how long it had been since they had had petitioners. if you had not had any food for millenia, would you turn away a bit of moldy bread?

[Jedimuppet]

They fell into foxland not snakeland. It was the snakes you ask questions to' date=' not the foxes. It is more than possible that they both have the same rules about the shadow, but I see it more as the snakes give answers similarly to how min sees viewings. shapes and colors about a person. in doing so, they feed off of a person's aura. that is their payment. so any question of the shadow would be tainted. much like ordering a big mac only to find maggots in it. but the foxes operate in a very different way. they give to you and take from you. a gift and a price. they must get some kind of substanance from this. also, when mat went in, remember how they acted so hungry? talking how long it had been since they had had petitioners. if you had not had any food for millenia, would you turn away a bit of moldy bread?[/quote']

 

you're right; I was typing fast. Wishes touching on the shadow would be disastrous :P

 

Your other reasoning goes so far afield from what's in the books, that I don't think there's much point in debating it. You're suggesting that shadow is taboo because the Finns find it distasteful, because it's evil. I'm not sure of that, and I'm not prepared to argue to that. We know that in the case of the snakes they feed off of experiences..and it seems the more vivid the experience, the better. They obviously are not turned off by death or violence.

 

Of course they were hungry, but I don't think they would find Lanfear "moldy". Far from it, actually.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Those were just concepts to get the point across. Also just a possibilty. We really dont know much about the finns, so much is conjecture really. The more I thought about it I thought it was an interesting idea, just thought I would throw it out there. And Lanfear as a moldy piece of bread was in reference to ties to the shadow, not her near perfect appearance. :twisted:

[Jedimuppet]

Those were just concepts to get the point across. Also just a possibilty. We really dont know much about the finns' date=' so much is conjecture really. The more I thought about it I thought it was an interesting idea, just thought I would throw it out there. And Lanfear as a moldy piece of bread was in reference to ties to the shadow, not her near perfect appearance. :twisted:[/quote']

 

I got that. I dont think they find the shadow distasteful. I think it's just really bad for the person bringing the shadow into it. I think they might really enjoy people bringing the shadow into things...

J

[HighLordXanthus]

I then dont see how we can assume that they would kill her out right then. We do know that she was held for some time, if being tied to the shadow was a death sentence, why be held at all.

 

Also I was reading another website that held an interesting idea. Perhaps Moiraine and Lanfear were stilled, and lanfear atleast asked to be able to channel again, so they transmigrated her, and the price was lesser ability. Just wondered what you thought of this. I found it interesting. And this explains all the loopholes i know.

[Jedimuppet]

I then dont see how we can assume that they would kill her out right then. We do know that she was held for some time' date=' if being tied to the shadow was a death sentence, why be held at all.

 

Also I was reading another website that held an interesting idea. Perhaps Moiraine and Lanfear were stilled, and lanfear atleast asked to be able to channel again, so they transmigrated her, and the price was lesser ability. Just wondered what you thought of this. I found it interesting. And this explains all the loopholes i know.[/quote']

 

You said right above, they were hungry. I was just suggesting that assuming they didn't find Shadow people tasty was perhaps assuming a bit much. Maybe they enjoy feeding on shadow people, and take their time.

 

In which case the being held part.

J