Me, Myself & Lews Therin

[trakand_01]

I've not thought of it like this before, but i guess it is a bit confusing.

I dont remember the exact scene where Ishy ripped Rand's soul but I guess that would make sense.

 

IMO, LTT IS there, with his own semi-consciousness, and the further Rand steps towards madness, the more prevalent LTT is. If you notice, as soon as Rand misinterprets Min's viewing to believe that he is actually sane, LTT falls silent; Rand does not believe he is mad, therefore LTT has no energy to feed off. Once Rand says 'that's it, i'm not mad' LTT may still be rambling, but Rand doesnt hear him - sane men don't hear voices in their head, and Rand is sane. INSANE men hear voices, and so when Rand is of the state of mind of believing he is not 100% sane, he 'hears' LTT.

 

The viewing that Min had of two men, one dying is supposedly the 'bodyswap' theory regarding Rand and Moridin, but I have to admit until recently I wasnt familiar with that theory myself. However this viewing does help Rand immensely as he misinterprets it to be himself and LTT, which encourages him to believe his own sanity.

 

Alternatively, perhaps it is to do with Rand's refusal to accept that he IS LTT reborn. He IS the Dragon, but he continuously tells LTT 'You're not real'. Now, they are one and the same person, surely refusing to accept part of your psyche as real has to do some pretty weird things!! So maybe the voices he hears are NOT another being, but a part of his own personality which he refuses to accept as himself - he believes LTT is NOT part of him therefore he cannot accept the voice to be his own, and assumes it is the voice of someone else...

 

I'm working myself into confusion here, but do any of these points come out clear?!

[WasteofTime]

The easiest and obvious comparison to this situation is Birgitte. She lived multiple lives, in each life she was essentially a different person due to her experiences etc but when she dies and goes to The World of Dreams she retains the memories of all her past lives inside one consciousness. She is now cast out of The World of Dreams and yet still retains the memories from every life she lived ( even though they are now slowly fading) and she is still yet but one consciousness, one soul. Seems to me like people here are saying that a consciousness can exist without a soul. And while there is absolutely no proof to any of this I just don't find it logical. Two completely different people sharing one soul when there is supposed to be only one in the first place?

"Luckers: This is incorrect. It's a different mind and different conciousness, but yes, the same soul. So they arn't Rand's memories, they are Lews Therins. A different facet personality, and distinct."

 

In many fight scenes Rand performs some awesome weave or w/e which he previously didn't know of. Lews Therin ( many of you are saying he is a separate consciousness/being from Rand - so doesnt that technically not make Rand "The Dragon" lol) didn't speak inside his head, he didn't tell him how to do it. Rand just knows from Lews Therin's life, from Lews Therins experiences. "...it was something from Lews Therin's memories..." I believe is the quote from one of those particular fight scenes (Correct me about that if I am wrong. Its something to that effect anyway). The one where he weaves a cocoon around himself to protect himself from the weave Dashiva attacks him with. And if he can access memories like that it contradicts everything everyone is saying about Lews Therin being a separate consciousness sharing one soul.  And while yes, Lews Therin does tell him some things, i.e. how to break through a shield, there is no conclusive evidence that it wasn't Rand/Lews speaking to himself.

 

So what you are basically saying is that a personality is a consciousness? IDK, I just can't buy into this "he is the Dragon Reborn but he wasn't Lews Therin." So many contradictions.

 

Rands whole strength in the story, his significance as a the main character, is that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin. And by saying that a separate consciousness can offshoot from that, the consciousness of Lews Therin, only hurts Rands character. We have been told that he is the Dragon. The one and only Dragon and yet here we are with the offshoot? I just can't buy into it. I understand it but can't accept it,lol. How can Lews Therin offshoot from Lews Therin. Vaguely complex.

 

P.S-> What I was kinda hoping for was that all of Lews Therin's memories would have resurfaced in Rand/Lews eventually, so Rand/Lews would have the experience he had in The Age of Legends. With the weaves etc. This probably would have altered his character even more, his outlook and personality. But for me it seemed to be the right way to go (Rand/Lews was already obtaining certain personality traits anyway so why not go all out). So much could have then been extracted from that situation and it would have been a solid conclusion. Could have explored the whole Ilyena thing (which I think was unforgivably neglected in the story) and the impact that would have had on the love Y. mwhahhaa. And while many of you will say that it would not be possible since Lews Therin was insane I disagree. They are only memories, not a consciousness. It would have placed Rand right up there with some of the greatest characters in a story of all time. Lews Therin was the shit! I don't know what Rand is anymore.

[Luckers]

The easiest and obvious comparison to this situation is Birgitte. She lived multiple lives, in each life she was essentially a different person due to her experiences etc but when she dies and goes to The World of Dreams she retains the memories of all her past lives inside one consciousness. She is now cast out of The World of Dreams and yet still retains the memories from every life she lived ( even though they are now slowly fading) and she is still yet but one consciousness, one soul. Seems to me like people here are saying that a consciousness can exist without a soul. And while there is absolutely no proof to any of this I just don't find it logical. Two completely different people sharing one soul when there is supposed to be only one in the first place?

 

No, the specific reality of Birgitte is that she was between lives. The manifest personality in the World of Dreams is some form of amalgamation, or dominant personality. That being said, in each specific life period she too would have had distinct, individual personalities--personalities that would have been different from each other (indeed, we know this to be the case based on her comments to Elayne about her previous encounter with moghedian). The distinct individual facet personality for each life period IS natural, and what we are seeing with Rand is not a manifestation of his dominant or dream personality, but that of another one of his facet personalities.

 

Furthermore people arn't saying that a conciousness can exist without a sould, they are saying the the cousciousness is not set. Multiple conciousness can manifest over the course of the souls existence, which we witness. So yes, completely different individuals, and whole lot more than just two.

 

In many fight scenes Rand performs some awesome weave or w/e which he previously didn't know of. Lews Therin ( many of you are saying he is a separate consciousness/being from Rand - so doesnt that technically not make Rand "The Dragon" lol) didn't speak inside his head, he didn't tell him how to do it. Rand just knows from Lews Therin's life, from Lews Therins experiences. "...it was something from Lews Therin's memories..." I believe is the quote from one of those particular fight scenes (Correct me about that if I am wrong. Its something to that effect anyway). The one where he weaves a cocoon around himself to protect himself from the weave Dashiva attacks him with. And if he can access memories like that it contradicts everything everyone is saying about Lews Therin being a separate consciousness sharing one soul.  And while yes, Lews Therin does tell him some things, i.e. how to break through a shield, there is no conclusive evidence that it wasn't Rand/Lews speaking to himself.

 

I don't see how. Both conciousness's exist in the same soul, which is allowing for the flow between of memory and knowledge--but that doesn't mean that they arn't distinct and different individuals... which indeed we know that they are. Indeed thats a part of the issue, as the barrier between Rand and LTT's seperate and distinct personalities grows more blurry its affect on Rand's ability to function is growing increasingly stronger. Indeed, Semirhage states that the conflict between the two facet personalities can result in a decent into terminal madness.

 

You seem caught up in this aristotlean concept of the soul, as being the person, their essense and their conciousness, but RJ is expressly working with a different understanding of what the souls nature is. As i said, its most similar to the Buddhist concept of boddhisatva--though its not quite that.  In any case, in the world of the wheel the soul contains the various concious realities and memories of the individual lives that it lives, but it is not singularily that, it is more then the sum of conciousness.

 

So what you are basically saying is that a personality is a consciousness? IDK, I just can't buy into this "he is the Dragon Reborn but he wasn't Lews Therin." So many contradictions.

 

Yes, a personality is a conciousness, but that is not really contridictory. It contradicts that western idea of what the soul is, certainly, but within the books themselves its completely consistant.

 

Rands whole strength in the story, his significance as a the main character, is that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin. And by saying that a separate consciousness can offshoot from that, the consciousness of Lews Therin, only hurts Rands character. We have been told that he is the Dragon. The one and only Dragon and yet here we are with the offshoot? I just can't buy into it. I understand it but can't accept it,lol. How can Lews Therin offshoot from Lews Therin. Vaguely complex.

 

Well no, to be fair we've been told many times that the Dragon has live multiple lives in multiple incarnations. There's even a quote from RJ that implies that the Dragon is sometimes born as a woman--though personally i dont buy that myself. They are not offshoots, and Rand certainly isn't an offshoot of Lews Therin. Lews Therin and Rand both are merely manifest facet personalities of the greater whole, the soul of the Dragon. Neither owns or incorporates that greater whole more than the other, both represent merely one incarnation in thousands, and both are included in the makeup of that greater whole.

 

And Rand's significance is not in that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin, its that he and Lews Therin both are manifestations of the Dragon soul, the soul that is key to fighting the Shadow. Yes, a mythos developed around him as a rebirth because this time round someone prophetically foresaw the next incarnation of that soul whilst the previous was still remembered, but yeah....

 

 

[Fel]

I have to say that I had previously been of the opinion that Lews Therin was "real", an entity that shared Rand's head, just as Rand believes.  But, I have been more and more convinced by the simple reasoning here and in another thread that it it far more elegant and likely that Lews Therin is just a facet of Rand's madness - an imaginary playmate he invented to shield himself from the incredible power he has and, at least early on, did not truly want to embrace yet.

 

A few major points seal the deal for me:

1 - Before the "Lews Therin" personality came into Rand's head, where was he?  Was he alive in any conventional sense or just in some kind of suspended animation waiting for Rand to get tainted enough to be able to free him to speak?  He came into being, but from where?  We know that the dragon (presumably a hero linked to the horn) waits in Telharanoid (sp?) to be spun out, but where was Lews Therin (who is still as mad as the day he died)? 

2 - As brought up in another thread, where does Lews Therin "go" when he runs away in Rand's head?  If this is a sentient being, from his point of view he is running away from the madman in his head (rand).  But, where does he go?  There is no real place for him to go that we have heard about in the stories.

3 - The Birgitte example of another soul with multiple incarnations is a good one.  You never hear her having conversations with her past lives because they are all for the same person.  To have her checking with her past selves for advice and having many long conversations with her 1000 previous lives would be very strange.

4 - To have that one person have multiple lives that you can "speak" to implies that each life is held in suspended animation just waiting to be woken up.  So, you never ever die at all since you can just get woken up by your next life.  How does that fit into the "death is final" thing - not only can your soul be reborn, but that soul can pull your consciousness out of storage at just before the moment you died and bring you back to life again.  So far, we have only seen the dark one able to do this and he could only do it if he caught the person at the time they died, not 3000 years later (or he would be bringing back all those old, dead AOL'ers that were on his side)

5 - Why does lews therin speak the new tongue?  if he is truly a consciousness from 3000 years ago, shouldn't rand have a madman in his head who jabbers at him in the old tongue?  I can accept that the forsaken were able to work to pick up the new tongue when they were released, but it's a little harder to accept that insane old LTT studied up on the new tongue before speaking to Rand.

6 - It's just SO much cleaner to assume that Rand made up a construct called Lews Therin back in the Stone because, while he knew he was the Dragon, he still actively did not want to be and, as those memories were coming back (possibly from the taint, possibly from the special nature of his soul, possibly from Ishmael, I don't know), he needed someway to deal with them.  So, he unconsciously makes up a LTT character to house these things and is basically talking to his imaginary friend (who contains all the memories from LTT that he has been afraid to touch) throughout the series.  It's logically consistent and there are no other gaping holes like with a "real" living LTT.  The only hole at all is that Semirhage said he was real, but, hey, this is Semhirage - master of mind games - I think we can possibly take her information with a large grain of salt.

 

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry but we know the Lews Therin personality to be real. Interactions with the forsaken hae proved that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Before the "Lews Therin" personality came into Rand's head, where was he?  Was he alive in any conventional sense or just in some kind of suspended animation waiting for Rand to get tainted enough to be able to free him to speak?  He came into being, but from where?  We know that the dragon (presumably a hero linked to the horn) waits in Telharanoid (sp?) to be spun out, but where was Lews Therin (who is still as mad as the day he died)? 

 

He was always there.  He just wasn't very talkative until exposure to the taint made Rand more susceptible.

 

As brought up in another thread, where does Lews Therin "go" when he runs away in Rand's head?  If this is a sentient being, from his point of view he is running away from the madman in his head (rand).  But, where does he go?  There is no real place for him to go that we have heard about in the stories.

 

He goes to the same place that thoughts "go" when we "push them away".  "Go" is purely metaphysical ... he's always still "there".

 

The Birgitte example of another soul with multiple incarnations is a good one.  You never hear her having conversations with her past lives because they are all for the same person.  To have her checking with her past selves for advice and having many long conversations with her 1000 previous lives would be very strange.

 

Birgitte's last incarnation didn't fail in a world destroying fashion, or kill all her friends and family as a result of madness.  The Lews Therin persona clung to the Dragon soul because he has unfinished business.  Its a classic motive for "haunting".

 

To have that one person have multiple lives that you can "speak" to implies that each life is held in suspended animation just waiting to be woken up.  So, you never ever die at all since you can just get woken up by your next life.  How does that fit into the "death is final" thing - not only can your soul be reborn, but that soul can pull your consciousness out of storage at just before the moment you died and bring you back to life again.  So far, we have only seen the dark one able to do this and he could only do it if he caught the person at the time they died, not 3000 years later (or he would be bringing back all those old, dead AOL'ers that were on his side)

 

As pointed out above, Lews Therin is exceptional in several ways.  The fact that his persona survived and clings to the Dragon soul does not indicate that every person with a previous life should or could experience the same thing.

 

Why does lews therin speak the new tongue?  if he is truly a consciousness from 3000 years ago, shouldn't rand have a madman in his head who jabbers at him in the old tongue?  I can accept that the forsaken were able to work to pick up the new tongue when they were released, but it's a little harder to accept that insane old LTT studied up on the new tongue before speaking to Rand.

 

Um ... how do we know he is?  Thought does not actually require language.  We see what Lews Therin "says" through the filter of Rand's mind, and Rand speaks the new tongue.  Lews Therin is just thinking.  Rand's mind translates the thoughts into words.

 

It's just SO much cleaner to assume that Rand made up a construct called Lews Therin back in the Stone because, while he knew he was the Dragon, he still actively did not want to be and, as those memories were coming back (possibly from the taint, possibly from the special nature of his soul, possibly from Ishmael, I don't know), he needed someway to deal with them.  So, he unconsciously makes up a LTT character to house these things and is basically talking to his imaginary friend (who contains all the memories from LTT that he has been afraid to touch) throughout the series.  It's logically consistent and there are no other gaping holes like with a "real" living LTT.  The only hole at all is that Semirhage said he was real, but, hey, this is Semhirage - master of mind games - I think we can possibly take her information with a large grain of salt.

 

Ah ... there are a couple more holes ...

 

Specific memories of the Forsaken?  Things Rand could not have known ... to name a select few that I can easily cite; the reason he broke up with Mierin ("You loved power!" TSR ch 9 ) ... memories of Sammael bringing the Shadow into the Rorn M'doi, when Culan Cuhan wept (TFoH ch 44) ... specific, unrecorded crimes of the Forsaken (recounted to Taim in LoC, ch 2) ... facial recognition of Semirhage (KoD ch 27).

 

How does a construct of Rand's subconscious know about Lews Therin and Mierin?  How does a construct even know the name of Culan Cuhan?  How does a construct remember that very specific list of crimes in LoC ch 2?  How does a construct know what Semirhage's face looks like?

 

No, it is not "SO much cleaner" to assume that Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's subconscious.  Such a fallacious assumption would leave a myriad of unanswered and unanswerable questions.

[Mr Ares]

Let's try and make this as simple as possible, because otherwise someone is sure to complain about not understanding.

 

A soul is not a personality

A soul is not memories

A soul has various personalities, one for each life

The Dragon soul was in LTT

It was Reborn in Rand - hence Dragon Reborn

Birgitte in T'A'R is not the same as LTT

She is a composite of all the various Birgitte's, by all her names

The LTT personality in Rand's head is the specific personality of his previous life

Because Rand channeled an awful lot of the taint he suffers from the effect of the taint

The taint causes madness/mental instability

Past life voices - memories and personalities - are a rare form of madness

LTT is a real voice is the simplest answer, and requires the fewest assumptions

The problems people have grasping this are not flaws in the theory

They are signs that some people don't understand this as readily as others

None of this "hurts Rand's character"

LTT is a construct is a theory with problems of its own

I hope all this has been helpful.

This was not intended to be insulting, so don't claim you were insulted by it...or I may show you what insulting someone really is.

Sticking lol at the end of every other sentence (you know who you are) is irritating, and makes the people who do it look dumber than they probably are

Any questions?

[RobertAlexWillis]

A soul is not a personality

 

Right.

 

A soul is not memories

 

Right.

 

A soul has various personalities, one for each life

 

Right.

 

The Dragon soul was in LTT

 

Right.

 

It was Reborn in Rand - hence Dragon Reborn

 

Right.

 

Birgitte in T'A'R

 

Huh?

 

Hmmm ... you seem to have foregone the "sentence fragments with meaning" format (including subjects, verbs, and objects) for the "prepositional phrase lacking context" format ...

 

Are you naming Birgitte as a source for this information?  Stating that she is the iconic representation of a soul in that stays bound to the Horn in T'A'R?  Some other meaningful "thing" that requires the use of a verb?

 

Oh Most Puissant Confuser of the Literate, Mighty Simplifier of the Complexificated, Enyalius of the Red Spear, deign to bestow upon us an explanation of your ... "wisdom" ...

[Tyrell]

"Birgitte in T'A'R is not the same as LTT

She is a composite of all the various Birgitte's, by all her names"

 

Seems pretty self explanitory to me - the Birgitte we see in Tel'aran'rhiod is a "composite of all the various Birgitte's, by all her names" existing like that in between her lives, but in her invividual lives she has no memory of previos lives, I'm pretty sure she says as much as one point. Although I would call the Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod more the epitome of Birgitte-ness rather than a composite of all previous Birgitte's but there are more problems with that as I come to think about it and hey what do I know? :P

 

Anyways I think the point that is being reached here is that Heroes as they exist in Tel'aran'rhiod inbetween incarnations have an entirely different circumstance than regular souls (unless the Dragon also wanders Tel'aran'rhiod in between incarnations, which would be alittle odd.) Therefore Birgitte and her memories of her previous selves, without the whole issue of chatting to them is not a good example of a soul with multiple incarnations to parallel with the Dragon soul.

 

*I may be wrong

[Egerog]

In many philosophies there is this concept that the aware part of a person is not realy the person.  This part is concidered a deluded fool who thinks he is you, In the process of, call it what you want, enlightenment, or attaining a higher state of conciousnes, godhood... Near the end this part needs to be gotten rid of.  I think Rand Althor and Louis Therrin Telamon are both the deluded fool part, from different incarnations of the Dragon.  It is possible that both Louis and Rand need to be shed off at Tarmongaidin.  I Don't think a fully capable Rand or Louis can accomplish what needs to be done.  I think the story is set at the end of the 3rd age because this incarnation of the Dragon will attain something beyond what the 2nd age incarnation did.  In many ways Louis Therrin is a failure as the dragon, not as bad as the Incarnations that went to the shadow, but a failure. He never went beyond just being a really really powerful AieSedai.

[dyring]

Well, tbh, it should be pretty clear that Rnd having LTT in his head does NOT come from whatever ishy failed to do in TDR. That is, if we trust Semmy atleast :/

 

She does say that sometimes a voice in someones head is a real one etc after being captured, so unless ishy was and tore at the sole of all those aswell(unlikely;)) its was a know problem the last time the world had some sort of organized psykological care ;)

 

Now, I don´t think Semmy had any reason to lie about that, afterall, saying that the voice in his head is real and not madeup almost helps rand, so if she were to lie she´d prolly make up something better. But I supose most wont agree:/

 

//dyring

[RobertAlexWillis]

Although I would call the Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod more the epitome of Birgitte-ness rather than a composite of all previous Birgitte's but there are more problems with that as I come to think about it

 

Actually, thats exactly what I meant by the phrase "iconic representation of a soul".

 

(unless the Dragon also wanders Tel'aran'rhiod in between incarnations, which would be alittle odd.)

 

Um ... thats exactly what he does.

 

Why do you think all the Heroes are his buddies?  They hang out together in Tel'aran'rhiod between spinnings.

 

Therefore Birgitte and her memories of her previous selves, without the whole issue of chatting to them is not a good example of a soul with multiple incarnations to parallel with the Dragon soul.

 

Thats true, but not for the reason you gave.  Its a bad example because:

 

1) The circumstances of the death of the last regular Birgitte incarnation were radically different than Lews Therin's death, giving that incarnation no "unfinished business" to cling to.

 

2) Birgitte was never exposed to the taint on saidin, which weakens the personality and exacerbates natural forms of insanity.

 

3) Birgitte, in her current mortal form, did not go through the "spinning out" process that the Pattern puts in place, making her an exception for different reasons than Lews Therin.

 

Comparing Birgitte to Rand al'Thor/Lews Therin Telamon is a bad idea, because they are both unique in their situation.

[Tyrell]

3) Birgitte, in her current mortal form, did not go through the "spinning out" process that the Pattern puts in place, making her an exception for different reasons than Lews Therin.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear, thats what I meant, I wanted to distinguish between Tel'aran'rhiod Birgitte and Birgitte incarnations, with the Birgitte we have in the books being Tel'aran'rhiod throughout since she was kicked out and not spun out.

[Mr Ares]

Oh Most Puissant Confuser of the Literate, Mighty Simplifier of the Complexificated, Enyalius of the Red Spear, deign to bestow upon us an explanation of your ... "wisdom" ...

Well, Not Quite So Puissant Confused And Literate, Mighty Complexifier Of The Simple, RAW Of Catherine Zeta-Jones's Body, the answer I give to you is thus: the computer cocked up and posted before I wanted it to. Unfortunately there is no god of getting computers to work properly. However, contained at the bottom of my post was this: « Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 03:36:53 PM by Mr Ares »

At the top of yours was this: « Reply #32 on: November 10, 2007, 03:42:05 PM »

Note the time difference between my edit and your post several minutes later. Your times may be different, but the difference should be the same. And try again, better luck next time kid, and all that.

[GrandpaG]

Even when Rand calls his voice "Lews Therin" directly, the voice never ever admits to actually being the rebirth of Lews Therin or any other incarnation of Lews Therin.  Shared soul, rebirth, separate entities, same person...none of it has been 100% verified.  Selene/Lanfear called Rand Lews Therin to his face but I'm still not convinced that this was not part of an elaborate plan to make Rand believe that he was the Dragon reborn.  He could still end up being yet another pawn of Tar Valon and thereby just as much a false dragon as all the rest have been in the past.  The moaning over his lost Eleyna (sp?) is the only part that ties him closely to being Lews Therin other than the wielding of Calandor.  Other than that, lots of Ashamen have voices in their heads...do they hear Lews Therin, too? ::)

 

===================================================

 

It's not real...it's only a story...it's not real...it's only a story...

 

[Tyrell]

Rand has fufiled specific prophecies, he is The Dragon.

[Zen]

I debated doing this,and its been a while since i read the books, but cant help myself, why is no one in this discussion about past lives and all bringing up Matt and his memories?????

 

Imho that would be a better analogy then Brigitte.

[CUBAREY]

Mat's memories are of totally different people. The memories are not of Mat (this incarnation) or those of his previous lives. So Mat is irrelevant to this thread.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Note the time difference between my edit and your post several minutes later. Your times may be different, but the difference should be the same. And try again, better luck next time kid, and all that.

 

LOL ... you edited while I was typing.  Your complete answer is indeed much clearer, Oh Sensitive Cariocecus of the Prophetic Innards.

[Mr Ares]

LOL ... you edited while I was typing.  Your complete answer is indeed much clearer, Oh Sensitive Cariocecus of the Prophetic Innards.

You can grovel better than that Robert.

 

Zen, Mat's memories come from others who have gone through the doorway/ToG to visit the Eelfinn, so not a good example.

 

Even when Rand calls his voice "Lews Therin" directly, the voice never ever admits to actually being the rebirth of Lews Therin or any other incarnation of Lews Therin. Shared soul, rebirth, separate entities, same person...none of it has been 100% verified. Selene/Lanfear called Rand Lews Therin to his face but I'm still not convinced that this was not part of an elaborate plan to make Rand believe that he was the Dragon reborn. He could still end up being yet another pawn of Tar Valon and thereby just as much a false dragon as all the rest have been in the past. The moaning over his lost Eleyna (sp?) is the only part that ties him closely to being Lews Therin other than the wielding of Calandor. Other than that, lots of Ashamen have voices in their heads...do they hear Lews Therin, too? ::)

Do you have any evidence for an elaborate plan? I mean, Rand fulfills all the Prophecies, and no-one has ever thought about how he wasbeing set up as a false Dragon, etc. I would like to see how he ends up being a pawn of Tar Valon, what with being the most powerful man in the world (or on the continent at least), the Tower is divided, and TG is right around the corner. The Dragon's soul as reborn in the body of Rand, and the memories and personality of the previous incarnation of that soul (LTT) have ended up in Rand's head. It's a fact, deal with it. Unless you have another explanation which is supported better. As for your other voices....Who else has one? Any evidence for "lots" of people having them? Or is this just unsupported rubbish? And no, no-one else would have LTT in their head - at least, not the real one, with his memories. They could just have normal, real world voices in the head, or they could have their own previous incarnations, but they couldn't have Rand's previous incarnation, because none of them is the Reborn Dragon soul. Rand is.

 

Still,nice to see you are still alive.