Me, Myself & Lews Therin

[WasteofTime]

Rand Al'Thor is the rebirth of Lews Therin. Lews and Rand are in essence the same person. That much is explained clearly in the books. The part I don't understand is Lews Therin talking in Rands head. Is Rand actually talking to himself or is Jordan saying that Lews Therin is a separate entity. I don't understand that. It seems to me like Rand is talking with Lews Therin, with another man, even though he is supposed to be Lews Therin and that can't be possible anyway because Rand and Lews are the same person ( even though it is portrayed in that way in the books). You can't have a conversation with memories. So it can only be two things as far as I can see, either Rand/Lews is talking to himself or Jordan contradicts himself by treating Lews Therin like he is a separate person from Rand Al'Thor. The latter is supported by the fact that Rand treats Lews Therin like he is another man, he addresses him like an acquaintance (Jordan never explicitly explained the whole deal and so it is left open to certain levels of interpretation). Which really doesn't help his image as "The Dragon". Either he is The Dragon or he isn't. And yeah, we all know he is The Dragon because of the prophecies etc etc but it doesn't help his characters solidity when there is a contradiction going on constantly inside his head.

 

Even though I find Rand's conversations with Lews Therin hilarious, for the most part because Lews Therin is just awesome and Rand/Lews is essentially talking to himself (or at least should be talking to himself :S). Some people are going to say its the memories of Lews Therin's life resurfacing in Rands head and while ,yes, that does happen (i.e. Lews Therin's personality traits coming out, humming while checking out a beautiful woman etc) he seems to be consciously aware of the world around him at the time including Rand (who he is supposed to be I might add), even if it is in bursts, therefore suggesting conscious thought instead of a memory. So does the guy have split personality disorder or whats going on? I can't seem to decide whether Jordan is telling us that Rand/Lews has split personality disorder or whether Lews Therin is indeed an individual from Rand. That is never truly cleared up as far as I know. (I've only read as far as "Winter's Heart Chapter: A Lily in Winter")

 

Didn't Min have some viewing in which she saw Rand with another guy standing opposite him or something like that and one of them vanishes, "dies" was the exact terminology used by Min. If that was indeed Rand and that was or is going to be Lews Therin opposite him and one of them "dies", thats just going to reinforce the enigma of Rand Al'Thor/Lews Therin. Because if Randy (oops I meant Rand) Al'Thor really is "The Dragon" and Lews Therin really is "The Dragon" how can one of them die if they are in essence the same man. Unless she is referring to Lews Therin's memories but how can that be so if Lews seems to be consciously aware of the world around him at times...he isn't just a bundle of memories but an actual consciousness ( he is Rand, Rand is him...I think). I couldn't buy into that explanation, that the memories/Lews Therin can die forever (I believe was also what Min said) if Lews Therin is Rand. Or it could be Rand that dies, but he is Lews Therin, so how can there be two when there is only supposed to be one. Take into account that this was Rands interpretation of the viewing when Min told him about it, that either he or Lews Therin (confusion!!!) was going to die.  ???

 

There can be only one.  ::)

 

Its kinda like Birgitte's situation, she remembers her past lives but she is a single individual, she doesn't have multiple personality disorder going on or anything. Even though she isn't supposed to remember her past lives once the Wheel spun her out again she seems to manage fine with no internal conflicts or struggles even though she was bitch slapped out of The World of Dreams. It seems to me that the Rand/Lews situation was just another "bridge of convenience" within the story, seems to be a common theme these days, since Lews is mad Rand just seems to automatically get precedence of the situation. (i.e. control of the mute button.) That really annoys me in the story though. Annoyances seem to be a common theme throughout tWoT and whether or not that is good writing is debatable.

 

For example, at some stage Min shows the "stupid bitch" side of her personality. I'm not exactly sure at which part of the story this is in but it takes place in Cairhien I believe in the throne room, sometime before the "confrontation" *shivers* with the three ladies takes place. Something happens with Rand anyway, in regards to Lews Therin/himself. He states something about Lews Therin/himself or says Lews Therin agrees (He agrees with himself...got to love it). Something to that effect anyway. Mumbles it idk. And Min thinks in her head something to the effect of "He doesn't actually believe he can hear Lews Therin's voice inside his head does he?". *laughs*. You know what I mean by all this. So, so, annoying. Many of the characters don't treat Rand like he is Lews Therin. Well he is or is supposed to be anyway. I'm going to take this opportunity to reinforce my argument in my other thread, "Aviendha, Elayne, Min. wtf", and state that these three women are in love with a man who know nothing about the other man/personality in the depths of Rands mind. Its a perfect example of the madness of the love Y. Of how they don't even know who Rand Al'Thor truly is. Great example of the relationships under-development and neglect. Or is it even a love Y anymore? *laughs* Lews Therin makes that five. So what does that make it now, a love pentagon. Nah it isn't really though since Lews Therin is Rand (I think). But does two different lifetimes count as one man or two. Since we are but the sum of our experiences yet he has two lifetimes worth and both independent of the other. Ah screw it, get the fuck out Lews Therin, Rand is one man too many. ( :o . lmao). Add it to the list of things open to interpretation and to ponder.  :-* *wipes tears of hilarity from eyes*

 

At this point I am even confusing myself. I would have just liked some clarification or development after nine thousand pages of text on this situation. Is Rand/Lews talking to himself within the confines of his memories from both lives, i.e. Rand/Lews talking to himself from Rands perspective/memories/experiences to Lews' perspective/memories/experiences and vice versa. If so that essentially means that he has a split personality.

 

Or,

 

is Lews Therin a separate man inside Rands head, which we know isn't possible since Rand is the rebirth of Lews Therin ( in essence the same guy). This perception seems supported by the Min's viewing, if it turned out to be about Rand/Lews facing each other and one of them dies ( I never found out, have stopped reading).

 

It can't possibly be memories conversing (obviously) and since we are just the sum of our experiences the most plausible conclusion is that Rand is talking to himself. Essentially has a split personality. But even at that it isn't at all conclusive, even though it is the only plausible theory I can find, the only one that kinda seems to fit, because if it was a split personality thing going on and Lews Therin's consciousness had completely surfaced long enough to express some insane delight, then wouldn't you think that his lifetime of memories and experiences would surface too. Jordan seems to treat Rand like he has precedence even though he is essentially Lews "damn" Therin. And if it was a split personality ( I can't see any other way without Rand not being Lews Therin) why doesn't Rand/Lews go crazy or start Breaking the World again or some crazy shit when Lews Therin starts talking. The guy is supposed to be mad right? I do believe this is later addressed in some following book where Lews Therin seizes the source and weaves kick-ass Age of Legend battle weaves or w/e when trollocs surround a barn somewhere. ( I read some spoilers  :-[) Then he doesn't want to let go of the source. Also references throughout many of the earlier books where Rand has to fight Lews Therin from taking hold of the source. And while, yes, these incidents do bring substance to Lews Therin's character(past life/experiences etc), most of the time the guy reminds me of Microsoft Sam. Just a hollow voice. Its a very one sided split personality situation. I would have preferred that if Rand/Lews was going to be talking to himself that Lews did get some major character development (Even though the guy is mad...lol. But then Rand/Lews does seem to manifest personality traits that belonged to Lews Therin, humming/thumbing his earlobe etc). The situation confuses the hell out of me. Still enjoyable, though I would have liked it if the situation brought more clarity to the central character of the story than less.

 

Complexity and scope are common techniques used in tWoT but looking at the story objectively, the way the story has been told has left too many areas unfinished. Too many questions unanswered. Too many characters under-developed. Too many characters period. I have only touched on two topics on this forum so far and both topics are completely open to interpretation. Elements of them left unclear or not whole. To give Jordan his due he can really get those mental juices flowing but tWoT is just too big to be told. Many have said that and for myself I agree. What is going to be twelve books could have been told in seven or eight. The story would have been more enjoyable if more of the characters were developed/matured and the story moved along with things actually happening. With tWoT it seemed to me that Jordan had struck gold but just decided not to bother with mining...lol. That sums it up for me.

 

This aspect of the story and so many goddam others in tWoT just serve to scramble my brains. I could sit staring into space for hours on end just muddling it all over in my head.  8)

 

Gnothi Seauton.

 

Later.

 

 

[Kadere]

At the end of TDR Ishamael rips something inside Rand, it's after this that Lew begins to show up. Lews has, in a way, been seperated from Rand so they can talk to each other and Rand can gain Lews' memories from that. They used to be one and the same person, but after this rip they became two.

[ignavus1223]

Lews Therin and Rand have the same soul, but are NOT the same person.  Lews Therin is Rand's previous incarnation and while they share the same core soul, they have different experiences, etc.  Aside from channeling knowledge, another difference would be Lews Therin's artistic ability that Rand does not share.  Essentially, Rand has two separate personalities with different abilities/experiences sharing the same body. 

 

The reason Lews Therin is in Rand's head is because the taint weakened the barrier between Rand and his previous lives. 

[Kadere]

The taint may have been responsibly for pulling them apart further, but it's pretty clear that it was Ishy's attack on Rand's soul at the end of TDR that started it.

[Tyrell]

Really Kadere? I gotta check that :O

[WasteofTime]

K, confusion. You're saying that Lews Therin surfaced as a separate consciousness. So answer me this. Did Rand Al'Thor (his essence) actually live Lews Therin's life?  So if Rand really is his rebirth then how did Lews Therin go outside that and be looking in at Rand from the outside. Are they two or one? And if they are two then how were they ever one? I can understand memories surfacing but a consciousness that was supposed to be Rand Al'Thor? You are essentially saying that one soul in tWoT can produce mutliple consciouses, I am pretty certain I would have remembered that if Jordan wrote about it. Two Dragons for the price of one. We have The Dragon on the left and The Dragon Reborn on the right, tight squeeze in that tiny little Aiel of...whoever he is(rofl). You say Lews Therin is separate from Rand now, but how can that be so when Rand accesses Lews Therin's memories in the heat of battle, remembering weaves etc. How can he do that if they are as you say, two separate people? Hmm?  ???

[Kadere]

Rand is the rebirth of Lews Therin's soul. At the beginning they are simply one soul, one essense, one conscious. Even Hawkwing recognizes Lews Therin when he sees Rand despite Lews not being present yet. After Ishy attacks Rand's soul at the end of TDR Lews Therin begins to show up giving Rand his memories about Lanfear and eventually pulling away enough to almost be a seperate intity in TFoH. Not just any soul can create two seperate consciouses, but it would make sense that a reborn soul, that's tied to the wheel and has lived countlessly over history, has some connection to past lives. Usually a reborn soul can't access any memories of it's previous lives, it's only because of the attack from Ishy that Rand can.

 

They're not completely seperate however. Lews Therin can come forward and take control of Rand's body, can give Rand his memories, and can carry a conversion. But you'll notice it takes time for this to develop. First it's just the memories, then Lews Therin talks but doesn't recognize Rand, then they can talk, and finally Lews can take control. They are parts of the same soul, and now they have two consciouses.

[maximus34]

WasteofTime has the best avatar ever... mushroomhead is awesome!!

 

(sorry... not tryin to hijack the thread, it just needed to be said)

[WasteofTime]

Lews Therin

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      V

Rand Al'Thor------->Lews Therin

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                        V

That diagram above is basically what you are saying about the situation when it should be more like this.

Lews Therin

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      V

Rand Al'Thor

                       

 

Rand is Lews Therin reborn. So how can Lews Therin become a separate consciousness from his reborn self inside his own head?

"but it would make sense that a reborn soul, that's tied to the wheel and has lived countlessly over history, has some connection to past lives. Usually a reborn soul can't access any memories of it's previous lives, it's only because of the attack from Ishy that Rand can."

I agree with that much, it would make some sense that he would remember things from his past life.

"Lews Therin can come forward and take control of Rand's body, can give Rand his memories,"

Disagree. Lews Therin doesn't give Rand (a.k.a himself) memories, Rand remembers.

"They are parts of the same soul, and now they have two consciouses."

None of what you are saying makes much sense. Its not logical. Break it down. Lews Therin was born and died. He was born again with no memories of his former life as Rand Al'Thor. The slate has been basically wiped clean with him. Now you are saying that a separate consciousness resurfaces, Lews Therin, even though Lews Therin was already reborn as Rand Al'Thor with no memories of his former life. I could buy into the whole idea of him regaining memories of his former life but this is just madness.

 

Rand is Lews Therin reborn. So how can Lews Therin become a separate consciousness from his reborn self inside his own head? Lews Therin was born, he lived, he died. Was reborn as Rand Al'Thor with no memories of his former life. One Soul. One Consciousness. One Dragon. Anything else makes little or no sense.

[Lacey]

How can someone spin weaves/ channel?  How can someone enter a "dream world"?  How can someone travel from one place to another through a hole or the ways?  How can someone link another person to them?  How can someone's will be manipulated by a "magical" rod?  How can someone foretell?  How can a mortal defeat the Dark One?  How can someone be the same entity and a different entity all at the same time? 

 

Point is.... It is a story.  Suspension of Disbelief- so sayith Wikipedia "an aesthetic theory intended to characterize people's relationships to art. It was coined by the poet and aesthetic philosopher Samuel Taylor Coleridge in 1817. It refers to the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises. According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is a quid pro quo: the audience tacitly agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment."

 

See... all fixed neat and clean  :)

 

[Kadere]

"Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"

 

As Ba'alzamon put forth his hand, Rand pushed himself up, threw himself desperately toward Callandor, still glittering and flashing in mid-air. He did not know whether he could reach it, or touch it if he did, but he was sure it was his only chance.

 

Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away. Rand screamed. He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were beign turned inside out. The pain in his side, the ound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt.

 

Taken from The Dragon Reborn Chapter 55: What Is Written in Prophecy.

 

Right there. That's where Lews Therin is torn "loose" from Rand's soul. This is the beginning of Lews Therin's consciousness. After this point Rand begins to gain his memories, and eventually they talk and so forth.

 

Your diagram is correct, that's my argument, so you understand it. I don't know how much more clear I can be. Lews Therin does come forward and take control of Rand, look at KoD where he does this when attacking the trollocs and myrdraal. Rand only remembers LTT's memories because LTT has been torn loose in his soul.

 

You're basic argument, from how I understand it, is that Rand's just insane. And sure that's a possiblity, except that the evidence shows that LTT is an almost seperate conscious being. They were one concious, until the above mishap.

 

To argue that Rand is simply insane, that he is the rebirth of LTT and therefore LTT can't come loose from his soul due to an outside force, is to say that the entire theology of the Wheel doesn't exist. That Rand doesn't have a soul, that he's not anyone reborn, and that there's no way to do this. But this is a fantasy land where RJ has created a soul that IS reborn in every turning of the wheel, and evidently if the soul is specifically attacked part of it's past lives can come forward. It makes perfect sense if you look at it theologically.

 

Birgitte can remember ALL of her past lives. Every one. Now she was ripped out of the wheel, not reborn, but she can still remember ALL of the past lives. If she had been reborn, she wouldn't remember. But does that mean that her very soul wouldn't remember? That it wouldn't have all of that? Of course not. Cause later when Birgitte died, her soul would be there waiting it's next turn and would remember ALL of it's past lives.

 

Now LTT is the same way. He was reborn, so he doesn't remember any of his past lives while he's Rand. Suddenly, Ishy tears a part of his soul loose from the rest of his soul. Now LTT's soul has two seperate counciouses. They're both part of the same soul, but one remembers the lives before. Rand does just remember LTT's memories, but he only remembers those memories because LTT was ripped loose.

 

Why was LTT ripped loose and not say the life before LTT? Why wasn't Rand ripped loose from Rand (the time the soul had been in the Third Age the last time)? Because RJ wanted it that way. RJ ripped this part of his soul from Rand's soul. Now Rand has the councious of LTT as well as his own.

 

You're free to believe he's just crazy. Heck, even Semirhage says he's mad, but you're also disavowing one of the very cores of the story. The Wheel of Time turns and many people turn out with it, every time they wear different faces, but they're still the same man.

[Tyrell]

I wrote a whole lot about the concept of the soul and how it differs in The Wheel of Time to western/christian stuff, and went on to make some rambling assumptions and suppositions, finally deciding to highlight it all and hit backspace.

 

Why did I do this?

 

I just don't think it matters. This, as Lacey has pointed out is a story, a story set in a very well constructed universe, but a story none the less, a work of fiction. If you are prepared to believe (within the confines of the story) that I can kill you back in time with balefire then you should also be prepared to believe (ditto above bracketed out section) that I could get stuck with some or all of my past life jamed into my head.

 

Edit : thanks Kadere, very interesting, very very interesting. I'd also like to point out that Birgitte's existance is the exception rather than the rule, only heroes of the horn keep getting reborn as themselves and get to chill out in T'A'R, the Dragon seems somewhat different.

[WasteofTime]

The whole thing defies logic. I have stated my reasons why. My first post is trying to make sense of the current situation but my following posts state why that situation should never have come to pass in the first place. Your explanation sounds to me like a compromise. There is no conclusive evidence either way. Open to interpretation. "Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor." That proves nothing.

 

I don't understand how Lews Therin could be "torn" from Lews Therin so to speak. It makes no sense to me.

 

And yes Tyrell, thanks for stating the obvious, I know its a story.

 

Does anybody see what I am saying????! lol.  :-X

[Tyrell]

If I wanted to state the obvious I wouldda gone into paint and drawn a sarcastic diagram, as it stood I tried to explain my point of view in a reasonably sound way and stated something that was similarily non-sensical in the real world, but works in Randland.

[Roxinos]

That seems a bit of a stretch, Kadere, but it makes sense.

 

WasteofTime, you said that Lews Therin cannot give Rand his memories because they are Rand's memories. That's not true. As stated, Rand and Lews Therin are different people. They have different memories and different experiences. They are the same soul, but they are different people, if that makes any sense. A soul does not determine who a person is, merely characteristics about them like their ability to channel and heroism and such. Their experience and life defines them, and Lews Therin is a different person from Rand. As such, his memories can be given to Rand.

 

Simply put, one cannot "remember" an event or action that one never did. Memories are part of one's mind, not one's soul.

 

That's one possibility. Or it could just be that Rand went far enough insane due to the taint to make him start hearing voices, and it just so happens that the voice he hears is Lews Therin, a manifestation of the memories his soul retains and it is feeding him the memories in a way that would cause the least conflict between Rand and his previous life.

 

Both of those possibilities depend on where you think the memories he is receiving come from. If you think they are coming from his soul, then you believe that Lews Therin is just a voice in his head caused by the taint. If you believe that they come from his mind, then Lews Therin is a different person altogether actually feeding information and memories to him (sometimes accidentally due to the weakened gap between the two minds after the taint).

 

However, if it is the former possibility, then how do you explain little things like Rand whistling while he's happy. That was something he never did, an actual action, before Lews Therin started appearing in his mind. If their shared soul is really the source of the memories, then wouldn't it be prudent to suggest that he would grow up with the same personality traits, crutches, and habits that Lews Therin had?

[Kadere]

Rand didn't take on any of LTT's manerisms until after TDR. Rand didn't just go insane due to the taint. The evidence is obvious, and it's right there. The world of WoT exists on cyclical theology that allows souls to reborn again and again and for the souls to retain those memories from previous lives. It's all Eastern philosophy. He wouldn't grow up with the same personality traits and so on of LTT, as he is Rand. Rand does not remember anything of LTT. Not until after Ishy rips them apart. Afterwards he gains things like touching his earlobe and whistling, or standing in a certain way, or knowing art better, or knowing certain weaves he wouldn't have before.

 

It's not a stretch at all. It's the basic philosphy that RJ's putting forward.

[Papermache]

 

A soul doesn't hold memories, as said before, it is just a person's "life force".

 

Every soul is attached to the wheel of time by a metaphorical thread (which is also, metaphorically, a persons body in the World of Randland). Now, for "special" people such as heroes of the light, this thread turns into a strong cable, which is difficult to break. At the end of these threads is a glass orbs (the glass IS the person's mind and memories in this case) with the persons soul. They are hanging above a stone floor. Imagine that the wheel is now a very slow moving, very large ceiling fan on the roof of this place. Slowly spinning, spinning spinning....

 

Normal people (Aes Sedai, Farmers, Shopkeepers, etc etc..) = Normal Cotton Thread

Special people (Rand Al'thor, Birgitte Silverbow, Artur Hawkwing, etc etc...) = Strong Metal Cable

 

When a normal person dies from old age, their thread slowly wearing out, from the strain on the thread from the glass orb, and the constant wind movement, and the dampness of the room, and whatever else, until it breaks and the orb falls. When a normal person dies from a sword thrust, their thread is cut and it falls to the floor. Everything gone.

 

When a forsaken dies by something, their "glass orb" falls towards the floor and the dark one catches it. When a forsaken dies from balefire, their thread is cut before the dark one knows it, and he has to scramble to catch it, if it's strong balefire, the orb will already have hit the floor. If he does manage to catch it he get's the person another thread (body), and ties them up onto the fan.

 

When a hero of the light dies, this person's strong cable (which doesn't wear away with old age, or get cut by the pattern's scissors) gets caught in the fan and wheeled up into it until the passage of time untangles it and it falls back down again.

 

 

 

Now hopefully I haven't lost anyone, since this metaphorical room, and theory, has almost confused me!

 

 

 

We come to more important parts now:

 

THE WHEEL IS AN INTELLIGENT SUBCONSCIOUS! It is a powerful computer system that keeps track of EVERYTHING. People, places, things, events, memories, etc.. etc.. are all stored in this computer. When those glass orbs break, the computer deletes the file. When an orb is brought up, it can access this computer, and download its memories.

 

 

Birgitte Silverbow, her cable was snapped (if you have seen a cable snap, you would know what it is like) and she recieved extreme whiplash. The cable whipping back cracked the glass (causing her slow memory loss), but the soul is unharmed. With the cable snapped her glass orb is slowly rolling towards the edges of the fan blades, and will eventually die when it is her time.

 

 

 

Lews Therin Telamon/Kinslayer, his thread is a cable.

 

When LTT died, his thread was tangled in the wheel and brought up into the fan. It got all its memories there, like the memories of Birgitte Silverbow before she was ripped from the wheel. When the cable untangles and the orb falls back down. The glass is damaged by the force in which it stops, and it cracks, but does not break. This kind of kills the memories, like scratching a computer disk, but allows you to add new memories to it. When it is pulled back to the central CPU, the wheel, again it regains its old memories, and saves it's new ones. The glass is unbroken, and it falls again, and cracks, losing everything, until brought up again.

 

 

 

 

 

To deal with this topic.

 

LTT's cabled orb fell. Cracked glass. Rand is born. Lives his life. Ishmael comes along and yank's at Rand's cable. Trying to break it. This causes strain on the glass orb, and the central CPU. Rand's thread, like all others are attached to this central CPU. But each is attached to a part of it, their own Hard Drive, or memory box. So when Ishmael yanks on his cable, this box comes free with some of its memories, which heals Rand's orb slightly.

 

Now there is a slight clash, there are two different people's memories, attached to the single cable.

 

 

 

 

Atleast, this is how I see it. It is alot more complex, in my mind, but I explained it as best as I could.

[Roxinos]

Rand didn't take on any of LTT's manerisms until after TDR. Rand didn't just go insane due to the taint. The evidence is obvious, and it's right there. The world of WoT exists on cyclical theology that allows souls to reborn again and again and for the souls to retain those memories from previous lives. It's all Eastern philosophy. He wouldn't grow up with the same personality traits and so on of LTT, as he is Rand. Rand does not remember anything of LTT. Not until after Ishy rips them apart. Afterwards he gains things like touching his earlobe and whistling, or standing in a certain way, or knowing art better, or knowing certain weaves he wouldn't have before.

 

It's not a stretch at all. It's the basic philosphy that RJ's putting forward.

 

In that sense, you're right. But in the general context of the books, evidence provided through reading and words alone, that is not supported beyond that one line. But it makes sense in the grand scheme of things factoring in all of the influences of the story and writing and such, of course.

[WasteofTime]

Interpretations, interpretations. I have my theory, you all have yours. But none of us know who is right and who is wrong or what way this soul/memories/consciousness/reincarnation thing actually works because Jordan didn't go into too much detail about it. He basically says "This just is, you fill in the blanks". While I think my interpretation follows some logical lines, i.e. memories are not a consciousness, we are all the sum of our experiences but if I was to die tomorrow and be reborn in X number of years I would still be the same man in essence but with just a different outlook and personality due to my experiences. Still only one mind with the memories and experiences just pieces in a puzzle, they are just happenings without the singular consciousness behind it. One soul, one mind, one dragon. But thats just how I look at it. To say I'm wrong in that would be futile as their is no evidence in the books to prove otherwise. I just think that to say memories and experiences are a consciousness is incredible funny and to quote Mr.Tuvok "illogical".

"WasteofTime, you said that Lews Therin cannot give Rand his memories because they are Rand's memories. That's not true. As stated, Rand and Lews Therin are different people. They have different memories and different experiences. They are the same soul, but they are different people, if that makes any sense."

Lews Therin's personality was different from Al'Thors. They are the same man who lived both lives but were different in both those lives due to his experiences and memories etc but at essence they should be the same mind, same consciousness, same soul! So infact, they are Rands/Lews/w/e you want to call him memories.

 

Beam me up, Scotty!

[Papermache]

I finally get what you are saying, and it is not true. Even if the soul created some type of the same thinking, a different body, and development of the brain since childhood, would cause a completely different mind, with different mannerisms, thoughts, and ideas.

[WasteofTime]

I finally get what you are saying, and it is not true. Even if the soul created some type of the same thinking, a different body, and development of the brain since childhood, would cause a completely different mind, with different mannerisms, thoughts, and ideas.

 

If you are talking about real life I'll probably keel over and die from laughing. I don't recall Jordan giving that explanation in the books. My theory is based on what I know from the books of this reincarnation business. As for real life, well, I don't know anyone personally who has lived multiple lives but you seem to have some experience with it?  :-\

 

I'm done taking a piss on these book. Yawn. The story was almost great, but almost doesn't cut it! End of.

[CUBAREY]

Sorry if this sounds harsh (it probably is)

 

 

Wasteoftime wrote

 

 

Interpretations, interpretations. I have my theory, you all have yours. But none of us know who is right and who is wrong or what way this soul/memories/consciousness/reincarnation thing actually works because Jordan didn't go into too much detail about it. He basically says "This just is, you fill in the blanks".

 

 

In the simplest terms you are correct. RJ presumed a certain amount of intelligence and ability deduce relevant information and concepts.  While the vast majority of us may disagree on particular facts or theories we generally get what RJ was getting at.  You are the only person I have scene on these boards who seems to have a problem with the rationality of the theological/philosophical world which RJ has created.  Others have expressed an opinion that RJ's theory is not well written, you are the only person who claims that RJ's world defies logic. 

 

If your point is that reincarnation  is irrational, or that RJ's version is too complicated, then my advise is to go read some nice magic and sword fantasy. 

 

Yes all our views are opinions, RJ was not writing for 12 year olds, he did not believe he had to dot every i or cross every t, in order for the reader to understand the world he created.  In the reverse, part of the charm and beauty of RJ is that he created a world and wrote 11+ books in which readers, while generally understanding what is happening, can have different opinions and views on particular characters and/or interpretation of events.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Papermache]

Well since Randland is a world mirrored closely by our own, except for some obvious differences, I would expect these real life rules to apply. Most of 'Planet Earth's' rules apply in the world of Randland. So why wouldn't brain development.

 

ALSO, in every book, movie, article, I have read, seen, watched, the soul of someone has been a spiritual thing. The brain however is something completely different, it's physical matter.

 

Explain to me, how would Lews Therin's adult-sized brain fit in little baby Rand's head? THAT defies logic.

[WasteofTime]

The only response I can think of is

 

LOL.

[Luckers]

The taint may have been responsibly for pulling them apart further, but it's pretty clear that it was Ishy's attack on Rand's soul at the end of TDR that started it.

 

Kadere, whilst your idea is possible, i hardly see any basis to state it as fact. Ishamael did not attempt to tear Rand's soul in half, he attempted to tear it from his body. Furthermore we already have a base function for the LTT manifestation. The Taint works on the function of destabalizing mental stability, it's why we see such a variety of abnormal psychological states amongst those that suffer from exposure. Following on from such, we also know that the manifestation of a previous facet personality can occur naturally--and moreover, occurs without any sort of involvement from someone trying to rip their soul out. As such the natural destablisation of the mental state by exposure to the Taint provides, to me, a much more solid basis of the manifestation of LTT. But let me address your points more specifically.

 

After Ishy attacks Rand's soul at the end of TDR Lews Therin begins to show up giving Rand his memories about Lanfear and eventually pulling away enough to almost be a seperate intity in TFoH. Not just any soul can create two seperate consciouses, but it would make sense that a reborn soul, that's tied to the wheel and has lived countlessly over history, has some connection to past lives. Usually a reborn soul can't access any memories of it's previous lives, it's only because of the attack from Ishy that Rand can.

 

That's a pretty big 'after' concidering its nearly three months after. Furthermore, the same state of 'afterness' applies to continued exposure to the taint.

 

Right there. That's where Lews Therin is torn "loose" from Rand's soul. This is the beginning of Lews Therin's consciousness. After this point Rand begins to gain his memories, and eventually they talk and so forth.

 

In your theory it is. I see no actual qualitative evidence for the factuality of it. As i said, its certainly a possibility, and you make a good argument for it, but im sorry, what is stated is not in any way definitive.

 

You're basic argument, from how I understand it, is that Rand's just insane. And sure that's a possiblity, except that the evidence shows that LTT is an almost seperate conscious being. They were one concious, until the above mishap.

 

There's not actually a qualitative state that we concider to be 'insane', you know. In terms of psychology we're more interested in whats termed 'abnormal psychological states'. Now, this can include completely imaginary stimuli, but it doesn't need to. The issue that is significant is the effect on the function of that person socially and emotionally.

 

What I'm saying is that it is entirely possible for Rand to be insane and for that to be why he hears LTT's voice, AND for that voice to be real. Now, in the real world this can't happen (as far as any scientific evidence shows', but in the world of the wheel we know that this CAN happen, and happen naturally when a persons mind becomes unstable. Rand's mind has been destabalized by the Taint, and subsequently we witness a mental effect that can occur in an unstable mentality.

 

To argue that Rand is simply insane, that he is the rebirth of LTT and therefore LTT can't come loose from his soul due to an outside force, is to say that the entire theology of the Wheel doesn't exist. That Rand doesn't have a soul, that he's not anyone reborn, and that there's no way to do this. But this is a fantasy land where RJ has created a soul that IS reborn in every turning of the wheel, and evidently if the soul is specifically attacked part of it's past lives can come forward. It makes perfect sense if you look at it theologically.

 

I'm sorry... what? To say that Rand is simply insane, and because of that hearing the voice of a previous incarnation of his soul fits perfectly within the (the word is epistemology, or perhaps the metaphysical state, not theology--the wheel doesn't really have a theology--it has a a deiology, and the basis of an animistic ideology, but neither is really what you were speaking of.) of the Wheel. We even have previous examples of this occuring to people of a deteriated mental state.

 

So yeah, could you clarify what you mean here.

 

Why was LTT ripped loose and not say the life before LTT? Why wasn't Rand ripped loose from Rand (the time the soul had been in the Third Age the last time)? Because RJ wanted it that way. RJ ripped this part of his soul from Rand's soul. Now Rand has the councious of LTT as well as his own.

 

Neither was ripped loose. Ishamael tried and failed. That passage makes that clear, he tries, and Rand specifically stops him.

 

You're free to believe he's just crazy. Heck, even Semirhage says he's mad, but you're also disavowing one of the very cores of the story. The Wheel of Time turns and many people turn out with it, every time they wear different faces, but they're still the same man.

 

Again, please explain why.

 

The whole thing defies logic. I have stated my reasons why. My first post is trying to make sense of the current situation but my following posts state why that situation should never have come to pass in the first place. Your explanation sounds to me like a compromise. There is no conclusive evidence either way. Open to interpretation. "Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor." That proves nothing.

 

I don't understand how Lews Therin could be "torn" from Lews Therin so to speak. It makes no sense to me.

 

And yes Tyrell, thanks for stating the obvious, I know its a story.

 

Does anybody see what I am saying?! lol. 

 

I do. Sorry, i didn't mean to ignore your original post, i got caught up. Is my position clear from my responses to Kadere? If not i can clarify it for you so we can continue the discussion.

 

But yes, specifically the individual facet personalities are completely distinct from each other, and whilst alike to some degree in nature, the individual experiences they face in their life clearly molds them. You must seperate your self from the Aristotlean concept of the soul (the western concept) of something that contains personality and exists in a set state that influences the body. This is much closer to the easter concept of the boddhisatva, the recycled soul that keeps being born to serve a specific purpose, yet is still distinct and different in each of its incarnation. Theres even parallels in the percieving memories and personal beliefs of prior incarnation, i.e. the Quan Yin/Avelokitsvara boddhisatva of mercy.

 

Rand didn't take on any of LTT's manerisms until after TDR. Rand didn't just go insane due to the taint. The evidence is obvious, and it's right there. The world of WoT exists on cyclical theology that allows souls to reborn again and again and for the souls to retain those memories from previous lives. It's all Eastern philosophy. He wouldn't grow up with the same personality traits and so on of LTT, as he is Rand. Rand does not remember anything of LTT. Not until after Ishy rips them apart. Afterwards he gains things like touching his earlobe and whistling, or standing in a certain way, or knowing art better, or knowing certain weaves he wouldn't have before.

 

It's not a stretch at all. It's the basic philosphy that RJ's putting forward.

 

I'm sorry... what? Oh sure, thats the basic philosophy, the cycle of rebirth, the different individual natures of the soul... but in what way does that even remotely support your suggestion of the ishamael theory?

 

All that you have said here is that Rand is indeed hearing the real manifestation of Lews Therin's voice.... well yeah, thats a bit obvious. In what way does that mean your explanation must be true? In what way does it even make it likely.

 

And your progression point? Rand manifests no known mannerisms or memories of Lews Therin until after tSR almost three months after the encounter with Ishamael. Which is also a point in favour of the taint explanation.

 

Ultimately your point has nothing except for the description of Rand feeling something tearing away--and even that is blocked by the fact that Rand specifically stops that in that scene.

 

Forgive me, but where is all this obvious evidence you keep speaking of?

 

Lews Therin's personality was different from Al'Thors. They are the same man who lived both lives but were different in both those lives due to his experiences and memories etc but at essence they should be the same mind, same consciousness, same soul! So infact, they are Rands/Lews/w/e you want to call him memories.

 

This is incorrect. It's a different mind and different conciousness, but yes, the same soul. So they arn't Rand's memories, they are Lews Therins. A different facet personality, and distinct.