Stilling, Gentling, Severing, Burned out

[elmis]

I've been trying to wrap my head around these things, specially the difference between severing (lets just use that term) and being burned out.

 

Is there a difference?

During the AoL, did they have different names for the two conditions?

 

Siuan could feel Moghedien through the a'dam, but Setalle couldn't apparently feel Joline at all. I put apparently in there, because we have Mat's POV, and he doesn't really ask if she feels anything, unlike the supergirls and Siuan, but the scene seem to hint that she feels nothing.

 

In an earlier thread Luckers (iirc) theorized that Irgain, Ronaille and Sashalle wasn't as much severed by Rand, but crushed - more akin to being burned out. But then we learn that Damer has managed to Heal them. We also know that Nynaeve has Healed Logain who was severed in an 'orderly' fashion (just a guess, but it seems they followed Tower Law and what have you). She also Healed Siuan and Leane, who both were severed very roughly, so rough that it gave them their now youthful appearance.

 

I can't remember right now, but I don't think the Aes Sedai Rand stilled got that same youth as Siuan and Leane, from Rands crushing - if someone knows anything about that please post it. :)

 

So what have we..

 

Logain was severed. - Healed

Siuan & Leane was severed, but very roughly, can feel the a'dam. - Healed

Sashalle, et al. were crushed, which severed them from the One Power. - Healed

Setalle was burned out, apparently can't feel the a'dam - Not Healed, though no one has tried either.

 

My question is, do you guys think that Nynaeve, or preferably Damer, could heal Setalle? Anyone know if RJ has been asked about this during a Q/A?

 

 

[DemandredFO]

The reason Siuan and Leane look so different has nothing to do with their treatment, they severed of the three oaths as well, I am assuming that is also the reason they dropped twenty years.  I say this because there is no difference, as far as I can remember between Logain severed and Logain healed.  Also, I think Samitzu does comment on differences in Sashalles appearence.

The reason Siuan and Leane are at less than full strength(I don't want to start that debate again) is because they were healed by the same gender.  If they were severed and healed by an Asha'man they would have full strength.

As for Satalle, I don't know about Q/A's but my opinion is that Satalle will be healed by Damar.  Satalle and Tuon are very good friends, I think a healed Satalle is the ONLY thing that will convince Tuon that Aes Sedai are not animals.  As Nyneave said in TSR after finding out who Egenin is, how do you unlike someone

[Davian93]

I theorize that the difference between the two is the equivalent of cutting grass as opposed to ripping the sod out of the earth.  The cut grass (stilling) can come back, the ripped out grass (burnt out) cannot.

[Swigaro]

Taking that analogy a step further, though, while the ripped out grass won't come back on its own, it can be replanted.  Someone who was burned out still retains the inherent genetic component that allowed them to channel in the first place.  I suspect that if healing one who was burned out is possible it may well involve a completely different weave, or perhaps significantly more effort.  We will have to see, however.

[Kura]

Well, the way I saw it when Nyn healed logain was she found a peice of a bridge, with a smooth cut across it, and at the other end presumably was the source. She patched up the bridge, now with being burned out this analogy can be taken two ways that I can see. The bridge burned down, its gone, and would have to be rebuilt, or its just got the jagged edge, making it harder to work on. Either way, if burning out is truly different, then I see it being harder to heal, but possible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

My question is, do you guys think that Nynaeve, or preferably Damer, could heal Setalle?

 

In my opinion, yes.

 

There definitely is a difference between being "burned out" and being "stilled", even though both were called "severing" in the AOL.  Women who are "stilled" can still sense the Source, but not channel it.

 

Amico had been stilled during her capture. Still able to sense the True Source, she would never again touch it, never again channel. The desire to, the need to, would remain, as sharp as the need to breathe, and her loss would be there for as long as she lived, saidar forever out of reach.

 

TSR ch 5

 

Women who are burned out cannot sense it at all.

 

And she came out [of the ter’angreal used for Testing for Accepted] with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source.

 

TGH ch 23

 

This accounts for the difference in the reaction to wearing an a'dam that is observed in Siuan and Leane, and Setalle Anan.

 

It might be compared to the difference between having your arm cut off cleanly, and having it incinerated. 

 

It also explains why it is actually harder, psychologically, to deal with being stilled than being burned out.  When you are stilled, you can still sense the Source, and its presence is a constant torturous reminder of what was lost.  When you are burned out, you cannot sense it at all anymore.

 

While in some ways, what Rand did to Irgain, Ronaille, and Sashalle seems more like burning out, the Aes Sedai who talk about them consistently refer to them as having been stilled.  Their reaction is also more consitent with stilling, and the constant torture of sensing the Source.  Since there is definitely a way to tell the difference (the ability to still sense the Source) it seems likely that they were stilled, rather than burned out.  So, their Healing is probably not evidence that being burned out can be Healed ...

 

Nevertheless, I suspect, like Swigaro, that it is possible, but that the weave to Heal someone who has been burned out will be somewhat different (and more difficult) than the one used to Heal someone who was stilled.

[elmis]

Thanks for all your input, but what do you guys make of this paragraph? :)

 

"Siuan, Leane. Just Siuan." Despite herself she tried to embrace saidar. There was nothing there. Not for her. Only the emptiness inside.

 

- The Fires of Heaven, The Truth of a Viewing (p. 781, paperback)

 

To me, I've always viewed that as if she is she's opening herself like a flower (getting the void), only to find nothing. Not even sensing the True Source, though it's not definitive, as it says saidar in the text.

 

I hadn't thought of that DemandredFO, that makes perfect sense though! :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Siuan, Leane. Just Siuan." Despite herself she tried to embrace saidar. There was nothing there. Not for her. Only the emptiness inside.

 

I think that this emphasizes the fact that she can sense it, but not embrace it.  She says there is nothing there, but the next sentence expands on that; not for her.  She can still sense it, just not embrace it.

 

I think the "emptiness" inside refers more to her loss of purpose, than an absence of the Source, since the paragraph goes on to say, "Never again.  A lifetime of purpose, and now she was rudderless, adrift on a sea far darker than this cell."

 

That Siuan and Leane have been stilled and not burned out is all but confirmed by this paragraph from LoC prologue, Nynaeve's POV, referring directly to Siuan and Leane:

 

Siuan and Leane had been Aes Sedai until they were stilled during the coup in the White Tower that put Elaida on the Amyrlin Seat.  Stilled.  A word to cause shudders.  Never to channel again.  But always to remember, and knwo the loss.  Always to sense the True Source and know you could never touch it again.

 

Given that Nynaeve had already been studying Siuan and Leane by this point, and Leane, at least, was actively cooperating, if they had been burned out rather than stilled (ie, they could not even sense the Source) she would have known about it.

[trakand_01]

I've always considered Burning out to be something you do to yourself - you take in too much, and pop! like putting a 240v hairdryer into a 140v plug socket, there's too much, you burn out, your 'element' as it were is burned out and you can't take the power into you any more.

 

Severing is something which is done TO you. Someone cuts your connection to the true power.

 

The 'emptiness inside' that Siuan refers to i think is also referring to the loss of her warder, who was killed when she was deposed.

[elmis]

She doesn't feel that until she's Healed again, well she feels the loss of a friend like any normal person would do, but the extra Warder bit? That comes months later in Salidar. :)

 

You make good points RAW.