How did Moiraine know????

[Wayhey]

She couldn't have known.  There is just no realistic way she could have.  I mean you could come up with some really convoluted and unlikely story to explain it but it just doesn't satisfy.

 

In the first 3 books RJ just isn't as meticulous as he is in the rest.  That's why a this 6 book series turned into 12 - his already high standards got higher and more exacting the more he wrote it.

[bjclinton]

ummmm.....you read the books, right?

 

she did know. she knew exactly who each one was.

[elmis]

He's hinting that Jordan made a mistake, which he very well could have. From the Q/A it's supposed to be revealed in the [later] books, but since there is just one left now, I don't really see it happening.

[DemandredFO]

There is a possibility that the later books meant the prequels where She might have gotten the info from Someshta(the Green Man).  Presumably, when she knew she was chasing the Dragon she went to the eye for info and it would have been chronicled in one of the prequels, at least that's my guess

[Tyrell]

How would the green man know where Sammy and Be'lal were setting up shop?

[BrainFireBob]

He wouldn't.

 

He'd know what they looked like, though. On good days.

[DemandredFO]

That's what I meant Someshta would know what the Foresaken looked like, as BrainFireBob said on good days

[Wayhey]

That's what I meant Someshta would know what the Foresaken looked like, as BrainFireBob said on good days

 

Someshta was severly damaged during the breaking--in the head, affecting his memory (TSR).  Anyway, Moiraine going to the Green Man years before finding Rand to get descriptions of the Forsaken is kind one of those whacky, unsatisfying explanations I was talking about.  (Plus, he knew their names and what they looked like, but not a single other shred of info to share?!  Loial at least knew something about Be'lal, but Moiraine knew nothing at all except what he looked like?!)

 

Ok it's possible, but so unlikely it would just sound like the author covering his ass.  I suppose this would easily explain her knowing about Jasin Natael too, but with all of the hints and weird behaviour by him and Rand I'd say she could have just added it up.  She also never once warns him of Jasin for 1.5 books, which is so completely unlike her that I just wouldn't buy it! :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm pretty sure that, somewhere along the way, Moiraine came across some info on the Forsaken not commonly known.  She pulls out tidbits about their personalities, etc, pretty consistently along the way.  I don't think its unreasonable that she could have, at some point, seen a description of Sammael.  Then, interviewing people about their shared dreams (something she knows strong channelers can do) she matches their description to what she knows of Sammael.  That scar is pretty distinctive.

[DemandredFO]

Wayhey, answer me this then, what do you think is the explanation for Moiraine knowing?  Why do you think Moiraine went to the Eye?  To look at it.  If your answer to Moiraine knowing is RJ screwed up we must agree to disagree

[RobertAlexWillis]

If your answer to Moiraine knowing is RJ screwed up we must agree to disagree

 

Um ... he already said that was his answer.

[Jonn]

Moiraine knows things. We should have already caught on to this character point by now after 5 books with her casting knowing glances every other page she's in.

 

She has a talent for seeking out secrets. Her memory for things is pretty miraculous. I suppose RJ meant for New Spring and other prequel novels about Moiraine's journey to explain a lot of the mysteries surrounding her.

 

She was there when the Dragon's birth was announced and she was just Accepted. She kept council with people like Adeleas and Vandene, noted historians and prophecy buffs.

 

Her singular focus for 18 years was seeking out the Dragon and finding out everything she could to help him win the Last Battle. This would probably include finding out whatever she could about the enemy.

 

She's very good at picking out the truth.

 

She may not know the greater details of what the individual Forsaken are like, but she would be versed in major things like what were their methods of ruling were, some clues as to what they look like. If she could gather which male forsaken were known to subjugate cities with their unshielded dreams.

 

As far as she knew, both Balthamel and Aginor were dead. That eliminates them.

 

She already knows of one who claims to be Baalzamon, and might well be Ishamael...but whoever it is, targets smaller groups with his Dreaming capability, revealing himself to only select victims.

Demandred, we knew nothing of by the first 5 books, so we can't assume what she knew about him or that there was anything to know regarding dreams and ruling methods.

Asmodean, we can't claim to know anything about him until the fourth book, but she picked him out apparently. She might have known something of his methods but that is still unconfirmed.

Rahvin is much the same. Still he may have been distinctly described in some way, because he was striking in appearance by all accounts, as was Sammael.

Sammael had distinct physical characteristics, and personality cues. He was a military minded man, and a defensive tactician. He had a scar on his face, which is better documented than most information about the Forsaken. He had blonde hair and was conscious about not being that tall. I mean, there was a lot of tidbits about Sammael. His dreams could tell a lot about him to those who would know what to look for. He may have been using his dreams as a form of subjugation to oppress the people of Illian. Fact is, he was leaving a lot of information about himself out there in his dreams, and this could be interpreted by someone who has any knowledge. Primarily the seeker would have to know that the Forsaken are loose in the first place.

That leaves Be'lal.

 

She could rule out Baalzamon at the time because it's not likely that he'd change his style that suddenly. Aginor and Balthamel dead...Asmodean wasn't known to be that strong, so hardly a candidate to openly challenge for Callandor, let alone make his dreams broadcast over an entire city. He's more of a camper, a person who waits for his moment.

Rahvin appeared to be more guarded judging from impressions. He was a larger man, which would be noticeable of the information were available. Can't rule him out completely in that case.

Demandred was known to be jealous of Lews Therin. He was a brilliant man by all accounts and that would have been noted. Something of this pride would have probably come through in his dreams if he was inclined to expose himself in that fashion, but on second thought, given his pride, he probably wouldn't.

Sammael is surprisingly easy to make.

 

That probably makes it a good guess that the person she knows the least about is probably a match for the descriptions she gathered from the people of Tear. If nothing she hears about the man sounds too familiar or strikes an obvious chord that tells her who it might be, then it might well be the person she knows the least about. Be'lal.

 

If that doesn't satisfy, then why can't we just rest on the conclusion that Moiraine is exceptionally brilliant and has a knack for figuring out the truth from scant clues and through instinct?

 

I gathered as much by book 1. I don't see why it's hard to accept that it's in her character to know things that most people don't.

[Wayhey]

Wayhey, answer me this then, what do you think is the explanation for Moiraine knowing?  Why do you think Moiraine went to the Eye?  To look at it.  If your answer to Moiraine knowing is RJ screwed up we must agree to disagree

 

I do think RJ screwed up, if for no other reason than nobody asked her, "How is it that you know?"  That's the first thing I thought of after Sammael, and then when she does it again in Tear and nobody says anything again. Even if she had a non-answer I would have been satisfied!  Or if a PoV included a single sentence like "Perrin was too afraid to wonder how she knew..." I could believe otherwise.  Instead we get nothing as if we are just supposed to accept that Moiraine can specifically divine who any of the Forsaken are by dissappearing for a hour or two.

 

I seriously do hope that there is an answer in AMoL, but I half-expect that there not to be one, and the other half-expectation is that the answer given will be very lame.  It's really not that big a deal anyway.  Knowing it was Sammael in particular added nothing to the plot of TDR, and Be'lal very little (so Loial could give us his tidbit).  As I said earlier, I believe the first three books are at times a bit "sloppier" in detail and writing than later on.  Having just read 1-5 again in the last couple of months I see clearly how the story matures between books.  This case just looks to me like part of that phenomenon.

 

Why do you think Moiraine went to the Eye?

 

Why does anyone go to the Eye?  For her I presume it had to do with looking for the Dragon Reborn.  She never says.

[Wayhey]

 

If that doesn't satisfy, then why can't we just rest on the conclusion that Moiraine is exceptionally brilliant and has a knack for figuring out the truth from scant clues and through instinct?

 

I gathered as much by book 1. I don't see why it's hard to accept that it's in her character to know things that most people don't.

 

I get that Moiraine knows a lot and does a lot, but to somehow get physical descriptions of specific people after 3000+ years with several cataclysms in between?  I'm sorry but I need a little bit more than her "brilliance" as an explanation for something this unlikely.

[lou]

would it be that unlikely that moiraine was given access to the secret histories in the tower? who knows what information those documents may contain. suian was amrylin at the time, in this quest with moiraine from the begining....wouldnt she grant moiraine access to any and all information available?

[Jonn]

would it be that unlikely that moiraine was given access to the secret histories in the tower? who knows what information those documents may contain. suian was amrylin at the time, in this quest with moiraine from the begining....wouldnt she grant moiraine access to any and all information available?

 

Good point.

 

You know, this is testimony of just how good and how deep RJ's world is. Many people are holding up a very high standard of reality in a fantasy series...This is a good thing.

I mean, when you read Tolkien, for instance, no one questions too deeply why there are hobbits and dwarves and elves. There just are. There's a whole long back story to it, but for the purposes of moving the story along, that background is left in the background.

 

Fascinating as it is to know the smallest details, sometimes it's just better to take the narrative for what it's trying to accomplish.

 

Gandalf was a wizard and when he came back to life after fighting the Balrog, he knew a lot more about what was going on, and how he should accomplish the task of winning the clash against Mordor. Well, I guess that'll do for what the Lord of the Rings needs to move the tale along.

 

Moiraine is an exceptional Aes Sedai with a knack for digging up the truth by whatever means she possesses. You know what, that's actually a lot more credible than most fantasy exposition.

 

One of the first scenes in the series that establishes Moiraine's character is her detailed account of the last days of Manetheren. She wove a tale of events that happened 2000 years before her time. She did so again at Shadar Logoth.

 

Her knowledge of things that are generally hidden has been established since the beginning of the series.

 

Why is it a surprise that she would know enough to guess the identity of the Forsaken?

 

Lou's point standing, she would have generally unhindered access to information that even most Brown Ajah Aes Sedai would not be able to get a hold of. She's been places that most Aes Sedai haven't at the time, and she's on a quest that most of her contemporaries don't even want to think to be on, because the Dragon Reborn heralds an end to their time one way or another. She is THE Aes Sedai who found the Dragon Reborn. She's protected him directly and indirectly since the very moment he was born.

 

I think this affords her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her knowing really arcane things about the Forsaken.