Min, the Finns, the Black Threads and the Forsaken

[Luckers]

So far we have three incidents of Min being around Forsaken, and seeing nothing. In the Great Hunt she was right up near Lanfear, and in the Lord of Chaos she specifically tried to view Moghedian, but cannot see anything except something almost out of the corner of her eye (and in truth, that may have to do with Nicola and Ariena. She never saw anything specific about Moghedian). She also never saw anything about Osan'gar. Since it was implausible of her to say anything about what she may have seen around Semirhage... i.e. wether or not she saw something, she wouldn't have mentioned it, for the time being im simply going to ignore that. And she

 

But why didn't she see anything? It seems odd that the Forsaken would not have images around them--I can only conclude that something keeps her from seeing them. So what?

 

1. Their connection to the Dark One... its true that Min has seen things around Darkfriends, though none with as strong a mark on them as what the Forsaken have (unless Taim was marked as Chosen as early as LoC... if indeed he was marked as Chosen, whatever). So this is still viable, but not the strongest option.

 

2. That because their lives as bound and woven by the pattern were kept on beyond their time, they in fact are no longer woven into the pattern... not in the same way. Unfortunately this seems unlikely, as Birgittes current life was not woven into the pattern, and yet she maintains a viewable progression.

 

3. A proactive effort, either on their parts or on the part of the Dark One, with the intent of maintaining annonymity of his followers futures... Now i know that others have foreseen various actions of the forsaken, including Egwene, Deindre, who wrote the Karetheon Cycle and Perrin, but i dont think that nessasarily invalidates this.

 

So what else is of interest. The Finns. The Finns forbid... absolutely forbid questions that touch on the Shadow. Why? I mean they hardly seem all that descriminating. Some of them wear human flesh as a vest. They don't really seem the type to take a moral high ground. Their gift is strangely similar to Mins--they both see auras that allow them to predict the future... now RJ has said that it is not the same gift, and Min is not one of the Finn, but that does not mean they dont work in the same way, and have the same problems. And if the Finn have problems seeing the Shadow in some way, it might explain their forbidding questions on it... it might even scare them.

 

Now, Dreaming and Fortelling are both the viewers experience. The Dreamer or the Forteller both experience visions or knowledge of a state of future affairs. Whereas Auras seem to be a thing that belongs to the subject, only Min and the Finns have an ability to see them. The AOL's had access to the Finn, and indeed, it may be that others existed with the ability to percieve auras... or that some way to duplicate the effects can be done with channeling, like a channeler can dupilicate the effects of ta'verenism (its a talent, i think its mentioned in either the BWB or by Suine, can't remember which).

 

In any case, for obvious reasons the shadow would not want that. When asked what the Black Threads were, RJ replied that Rand thought they were a connection, but that this might not be true. I suspect they serve several aspects, amongst which is the drawing off the Wheels control over fate... which can be done, the Finns tell mat as much. I think that the Dark One, to a certain extent, is conteracting the power the wheel has over the actions of his Chosen... which makes a whole realm of sense if you think about it. Min's visions are always true for a reason, it implies that the Wheel has the power to force certain actions, and the Dark One likely doesn't want his Chosen being influenced by something, non-sentient though it might be, but certainly with a will to sustain itself.

 

As a side effect of this blunting, Min's visions and the Finns are blocked.

 

Why is this significant, and why is it in the memory of Light forum? Well, ill tell you. I think this will play some role, or perhaps result from the rescue of Moiraine. For Mat to avoid the Finns notice, i think he must find some way to side step the thread of fate. The prophecy about him giving up half the light of the world, to save the world, may not be about his eye after all, but about him stepping out of the light, atleast partially, so as to avoid the finns prediction of the course of his thread, and so he can act against them. That old saying about the only way to defeat the Finn is to cheat, is more significant than is realised, and i believe the Forsaken, or at least the Dark One percieved this. The cheating is not just the bringing of the forbidden things, but also something to do with playing with the concept of Mats set path.

[elmindreda]

i think min cant see anything because they are connected to the dark one

[rd2000]

Might not have any bearing at what you are implying, but, when Moridin uses the true power to make a gateway to travel, the books state he steps outside the pattern.

[Blademaster]

I'm not saying the Finns do or don't forbid questions concerning the Shadow, yet Rand asked at least one question there and survived (ok he had to back out with his fire sword but still). I think that's mentioned somewhere in KOD. Cadsuane said it was dangerous. Then she probably sniffed.

[joeybsmash]

halima was probably concealed with the weave that hides the ablility to channel. wait, no she wasn't but there is probably a similar weave to hide from min's veiwings. or it is a plot charactoristic.

[Kaznen]

Hamila didn't come to Salidar until after Min had left. So Min never saw "her."

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Nicely thought out Luckers, that does seem to make sense.

[jo]

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel will.

[ONeill]

I'm not saying the Finns do or don't forbid questions concerning the Shadow' date=' yet Rand asked at least one question there and survived (ok he had to back out with his fire sword but still). I think that's mentioned somewhere in KOD. Cadsuane said it was dangerous. Then she probably sniffed.[/quote']

 

Do we know what Rand asked the Finns????

[Ehecatl]

How to win the last battle and survive and how to cleanse Saidin were two of them, I can't remember the last.

[TheDiceAgain...]

He asked how he could survive, the answer, in typicallly inscrutable Finn fashion was:

 

"To live, you must die"

 

Or something to that effect...

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

Just a note: Someone (Egwene, I think) had a dream (or vision, whatever) about Mat plucking out his own eye and placing it on a scale. It was early in the series (I want to say TGH or TDR, but I'm not sure). The physical effects in these visions always seem to come about, so I think Mat is going to lose an eye. I do believe that it will be in the course of dealing with the 'Finns that he loses it, but I also think that he will literally lose his eye.

[Darkstar]

Well, its been a while since I finsihed KoD and even longer since I finished the re-read of the series but here are my thoughts on the matter anyway.

 

The whole purpose of the Dark One's nefarious plan is to break the Wheel of Time and re-weave the pattern in his own image. I think in order to do this the DO can't really be inside or apart of the pattern. Many times we hear the "hole" into the DO's prison described as a bore in the pattern linking to another existence "outside" of the Wheel.

 

Now we take the DO's "chosen" ones, the forsaken. They are undoubtly his agents in the world working to carry out his plans and win themselves a place in the DO's version of the pattern. I think, and its been awhile so correct me if need be please, that it was once mentioned that the pattern had a way of correcting threads that had moved too far from their original path. I think Moiraine was the one who explained how each thread had some room to move but not too much room. Move the thread too far and it will be snipped from the pattern. I believe she explained it while telling the boys about Tav'eren.

 

Now in order to truly carry out the DO's plans the Forsaken have to do things that go waaaay against the pattern to help him disrupt it and re-weave it. Now if you kick in this hypothetical correction system in the pattern - than their threads moving too far from their intended paths would cause them to be "snipped" - no pun intended. To compensate for this, I believe the DO tied these black threads to the forsaken to allow them to exist outside the pattern, hence Min's inability to "read" their threads, because Min "sees" reflections of the pattern and one's thread path if you will.

 

Just my theory though

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

Interesting theory Darkstar. I like it. I just see one potential flaw.

 

The only thing I think you had wrong was that the Patterns self correcting mechanism. Rand said something like 'If I wanted to live in Devan Ride instead of Emond's Field then The Pattern could accept that little change, but if I wanted to be a King instead of a blacksmith, then The Pattern wouldn't allow it cause it would be too big a change.' Obviously thats not a direct quote but the intent comes through. It seems that common sense is the Patterns correction mechanism. A blacksmith cannot (unless he's really REALLY ta'veren) just walk up to the gates of a city and say "I am you King." No one would listen to the loon at the gate. That's how I always assumed the "correction" feature worked.

 

To me those black threads have always been the way in which the Chosen were given immortality, that is kept out of the ultimate control mechanism of the Pattern, death of old age.

 

So as I said, I like the theory I just don't think that correction mechanism of the Pattern just removes them.

[Cybertrolloc]

Doesn't Min say she doesn't see things or is less likely to see things if someone is holding the power? I'd think the adam could have something to do with it too. No explanation for Lanfear (did Min come across her at the Tower in tDR too)? I also think Jordan has said straight out that the Finns dislike the Shadow.

 

Another reason for Jordan is revealing too much too soon--something like Min makes it hard to do something interesting. After all, after LoC she views everyone she can looking for things dangerous to Rand.

[Luckers]

Yeah, that was pretty much what i was trying to say too Darkstar.