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How did Lews Therin...


Seriodor
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Again, it's due to fear of the Dark One's reaction. RJ makes that quite clear.

 

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's POVs that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

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And also how perfect was the seal? In the story it says that the seal would be complete/perfect if male and female channelers worked together. Since no females took part it´s likely that it wasn´t a finished sealing. Maybe that´s the reason that Ishamael was able to walk around the world? You could also wonder how the sealing took place since male channelers cannot link without female. Just a thought that last one.

 

Then the question also is, who hid the seals away? All the male Aes Sedai went insane on the instant. Was ther any rational people left who could take those seals away? That would be interesting to know... Does anybody know? 

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Actually in the story (I assume you're referring to The Strike at Shayol Ghul) said that, "As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women."

 

But later said that, "The seals were placed safely, without ripping open the Dark One's prison as many opponents had feared."

 

http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

 

These two statements indicate to me that it was not the lack of participation of women which caused the plan to fail, but that the plan itself was flawed.  The placement was made correctly, despite the lack of female participation.  But the Seal, even perfectly placed, could not prevent the Dark One's counterstroke, or form a permanent Seal.

 

This idea seems to be borne out by indications in the current set of stories that the Bore cannot actually be patched, but must somehow be restored (some say Healed) to its original state.

 

As to the fate of the physical focus points of the Seal, Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions (or the 68 who survived) would have been unable to physically harm the focus points despite their instant insanity, since they were made of cuendillar.  While no description is given, I would imagine that finding the focus points was a high priority in the first days of the Breaking, and that a number of the non-channeling survivors of the strike (Lews Therin took approximately 10,000 soldiers with him) knew their location.  Perhaps some of these people managed to safeguard the focus points right from the start, and then to pass them to sane, female Aes Sedai. 

 

Well ... OK, less insane female Aes Sedai.  ;D

 

They were somehow gathered by the White Tower after its formation, but were well and truly lost during the Trolloc Wars.  The Amyrlin's titles include "Watcher of the Seals", a remnant from the time that the Amyrlin Seat did indeed know the location of the focus points.

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They were somehow gathered by the White Tower after its formation, but were well and truly lost during the Trolloc Wars.  The Amyrlin's titles include "Watcher of the Seals", a remnant from the time that the Amyrlin Seat did indeed know the location of the focus points.

 

Personally i doubt that claim (on the Aes Sedai's behalf I mean). The Eye of the World was made before the White Tower, and what of the one that was in Rhuidean? Much less the second of the two that the High Lord possessed which he seemingly brought with him from Seanchan.

 

I don't doubt that the Aes Sedai had a few in their possession, and knew of the location of a few more, but personally i think they were being a bit overambitious in naming their leader the Watcher of the Seals. Though, in their favour, this likely did serve to stop people looking for the Seals which may have safeguarded them in their obscurity.

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Who knows Luckers maybe they did have all seals before the trolloc wars and perhaps when the Trolloc army raided the tower Ishamael directed dreadlords to take the seals.  Then he may have ordered them to give him the seals and then he would give them to darkfriends to scatter or he could have scattered them himself. 

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Who knows Luckers maybe they did have all seals before the trolloc wars and perhaps when the Trolloc army raided the tower Ishamael directed dreadlords to take the seals.  Then he may have ordered them to give him the seals and then he would give them to darkfriends to scatter or he could have scattered them himself. 

 

Well, again, there is the fact that two of the seals were secured in their current hiding space long before the Tower was constructed or Elisane Tishar named herself Amyrlin. The one at the Eye of the World was placed there even before the Breaking had begun, and the same goes for the one given to the Aiel. And even though it could be suggested that the one Turak brought with him from Seanchan had been taken their first during the initial invasion by Luthair, i frankly find that doubtful as well--why would a common soldier have a cuiendillar seal of that size, and the lords who went were mostly second sons--their familial riches would reside with their families.

 

 

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The seal that went to Rhuidean certainly was not there before Elisane Tishar became the first Amyrlin.  The White Tower as an organization had predated the actual completion of the city of Tar Valon by more than a century ... and had been begun in the days of Rhodric, who was Mandein's great-great-great-grandfather.  That was before the Aiel passed over the Dragonwall ... and indeed, that is the earliest POV in which Aes Sedai are travelling with the Jenn.  In other words, the Aes Sedai who joined the Jenn Aiel did so after the formation of the White Tower ... but before the Aiel passed over the Dragonwall.  While that does not make it certain that they were associated with the Tower, it does make it quite possible.  We know the Oaths were not instituted right away, so the fact that those Aes Sedai apparently did not take them does not disprove their potential connection with the Tower.

 

Now, why would the Jenn pass over the Dragonwall?  Certainly the terrain was not more hospitable.  There remained open spaces that were unoccupied on the west side of the mountains ...

 

Perhaps they were instructed to do so by the Aes Sedai with them.  Aes Sedai who just happened to have one of the seals, and needed a place to hide it.

 

No, its not only possible, but likely that the first few Amyrlin Seats knew the whereabouts of the seal that went to Rhuidean.

 

Likewise, Travelling did not disappear immediately following the Breaking.  Indeed, it was said to be lost around the time of the Trolloc Wars.  So, its certainly not impossible that one of the first Amyrlins dispatched one of the seals to the Seanchan continent.  Certainly spreading some of the seals out physically could be regarded as an extra security measure.

 

Another possibility is that the seal went over the ocean with Hawkwing's armies, as part of a collection.  The fact that Turak has it, more than 2000 years after the end of the Trolloc Wars, does not mean that an Amyrlin Seat before that time could not have known its location, at that time.  2000 years is plenty of time for a seal to move across an ocean, especially when we know for a fact that there was at least one mass exodus from Randland, to Seanchan (Luthair's invasion).

 

Likewise, the knowledge that a seal was contained within the Eye could have survived the Breaking, but not the Trolloc Wars ... and if anyone would know it, the Amyrlin Seat would, either from her own sources, or from someone who joined the Tower possessing the information.

 

Perhaps the reason that the location of the seals was lost in the Trolloc Wars is that a part of the Tower itself was sacked and burned.  Certainly Ishamael, in his more lucid moments, would have destroying that sort of knowledge relatively high on his list of priorities.

 

I believe Siuan's assertion that the first Amyrlin's did know the location of the seals, up until the Trolloc Wars.  I believe it mostly because it was part of a candid admission of failure, and because it fits events as we know them.

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Now, why would the Jenn pass over the Dragonwall?  Certainly the terrain was not more hospitable.  There remained open spaces that were unoccupied on the west side of the mountains ...

 

Perhaps they were instructed to do so by the Aes Sedai with them.  Aes Sedai who just happened to have one of the seals, and needed a place to hide it.

 

Or, alternatively, Aes Sedai who were running from the Aes Sedai who aligned with the Tower. This provides a much more solid reason for venturing into the Waste... after all Seals can be hidden anywhere. Going to the extreme of entering a desert seems counter-productive... unless there is another reason.

 

No, its not only possible, but likely that the first few Amyrlin Seats knew the whereabouts of the seal that went to Rhuidean.

 

... Why?

 

 

Another possibility is that the seal went over the ocean with Hawkwing's armies, as part of a collection.  The fact that Turak has it, more than 2000 years after the end of the Trolloc Wars, does not mean that an Amyrlin Seat before that time could not have known its location, at that time.  2000 years is plenty of time for a seal to move across an ocean, especially when we know for a fact that there was at least one mass exodus from Randland, to Seanchan (Luthair's invasion).

 

I'm fairly certain I addressed that. Whilst possible, i personally concider it unlikely.

 

Likewise, the knowledge that a seal was contained within the Eye could have survived the Breaking, but not the Trolloc Wars ... and if anyone would know it, the Amyrlin Seat would, either from her own sources, or from someone who joined the Tower possessing the information.

 

Again... commented on.

 

I believe Siuan's assertion that the first Amyrlin's did know the location of the seals, up until the Trolloc Wars.  I believe it mostly because it was part of a candid admission of failure, and because it fits events as we know them.

 

I don't. I think the knowledge of the location and disposition of a few of the Seals explains the belief.

 

If you would could you cite siuan's comment. I've been looking for it but can't find it and i'd be very interested in reading the specific wording. My memory is that she said that no Amyrlin had known of the location of 'any' of the seals since the Trolloc Wars, which speaks a very different reality.

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Another possibility is that the seal went over the ocean with Hawkwing's armies, as part of a collection.  The fact that Turak has it, more than 2000 years after the end of the Trolloc Wars, does not mean that an Amyrlin Seat before that time could not have known its location, at that time.  2000 years is plenty of time for a seal to move across an ocean, especially when we know for a fact that there was at least one mass exodus from Randland, to Seanchan (Luthair's invasion).

 

I'm fairly certain I addressed that. Whilst possible, i personally concider it unlikely.

 

I don't think it is unlikely that that particular seal went to Seanchan with Luthair's armies, Even the second son of the High King is pretty high up.  After all, the Seal certainly came back acrosss the Aryth Ocean as a part of a personal collection.

 

 

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Now, why would the Jenn pass over the Dragonwall?  Certainly the terrain was not more hospitable.  There remained open spaces that were unoccupied on the west side of the mountains ...

 

Perhaps they were instructed to do so by the Aes Sedai with them.  Aes Sedai who just happened to have one of the seals, and needed a place to hide it.

 

Or, alternatively, Aes Sedai who were running from the Aes Sedai who aligned with the Tower. This provides a much more solid reason for venturing into the Waste... after all Seals can be hidden anywhere. Going to the extreme of entering a desert seems counter-productive... unless there is another reason.

 

Or perhaps it didn't have anything at all to do with Aes Sedai at all?  If I recall correctly, one of the wives of one of Rand's anscestors was a dreamer.  Why would we assume that the body of people who made up the Aiel would be absent their own dreamers or wise ones able to fortell a destiny in the 3 fold land?  How do we know that the Waste was less hospitable than anywhere else during the breaking.  After all the breaking was a time of cataclysmic change.  It certainly seems that Water was hard to find in early Carhein, and the builders of Rhuiedean seemed pretty optimistic about the prospect of water to build a city with so many fountains and boulevards intended to be planted with green things.  Simply we don't know the Aiel's motivation to move across the dragonwall, except that we know that the Aiel were directed to find somewhere safe, and that they had learned through hard experience that places were there were people were not safe places.

 

 

No, its not only possible, but likely that the first few Amyrlin Seats knew the whereabouts of the seal that went to Rhuidean.

What Lucker's said, Why? 

 

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I believe Siuan's assertion that the first Amyrlin's did know the location of the seals, up until the Trolloc Wars.  I believe it mostly because it was part of a candid admission of failure, and because it fits events as we know them.

 

I don't. I think the knowledge of the location and disposition of a few of the Seals explains the belief.

 

If you would could you cite siuan's comment. I've been looking for it but can't find it and i'd be very interested in reading the specific wording. My memory is that she said that no Amyrlin had known of the location of 'any' of the seals since the Trolloc Wars, which speaks a very different reality.

 

I agree with Luckers here.  My recollection of the Siuan quote is that she said that no Amrylin had had knowledge of any of the seals since the trolloc wars.  Even if the Tower had possessed 2 of the seven seals up until the trollocs raided the tower, it would still have been justification enough for the Amrylin to call herself the "protector of the Seals" or whatever, and would explain how some of the seals ended up in unlikely places like Bayle Doman's ship, the Panarchs collection, and most oddly, Taim's hands.

 

In fact, it brings up a good point about the seals locations, Why would the Amrylin not know the location of any of the seals if there were some in such (relatively) easily accessible places as the stone of Tear and most escpecially the Panarch's palace.  I mean even commoners were allowed to tour the Panarchs collection on occassion, how come no Brown Ajah sister ever went to go look through the Panarch's collection, why would they not notice one of the seals? 

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Why is it likely that one of the seals went with Luthair? Of course it´s possible but in my mind not likely. So I have to agree with Luckers there.

 

All the seals are accounted for in the main plot of WoT, and still there wern´t any in Shara. Hawkwing also sent an expedition to Shara under one of his daughters. No one could know that Lutair´s expedition would be a success and the Shara expedition not. Why then should he have a seal and not the daughter? I think it´s more likely that the seal went to Seanchan earlier. There were also Aes Sedai and who knows which connections they had with the white tower around the Breaking?!

 

 

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Well, it turns out my memory isn't as good as I'd hoped it would be.

 

I found the quote I was misremembering, and it doesn't say exactly what I thought I remembered it saying.

 

First of all, it wasn't Siuan, it was Moiraine, while speaking to Siuan.  Second, it wasn't said outloud, but thought in her POV.  Finally, it doesn't say precisely what I thought it did, rather, it says precisely what Luckers and cloglord thought it did.

 

To quote:

 

The secret hidden from the world, if the world ever thought of it, was that no Amyrlin Seat had known where any of the seals were since the Trolloc Wars.

 

TGH ch 5

 

So, Moiraine did not specifically think, "The Amyrlin once knew where all the seals were, but lost track of them".  She also did not think, "The Amyrlin never knew where all of them were, and lost track of even the few she knew about".  She simply stated to herself that the Amyrlin hadn't known where any of them were after the Trolloc Wars.

 

All that said, I still think there is a decent chance that the first few Amyrlins did indeed know where they were.

 

Your original objection, Luckers, was that, to quote:

 

there is the fact that two of the seals were secured in their current hiding space long before the Tower was constructed or Elisane Tishar named herself Amyrlin.

 

That is simply not a fact.  There was a White Tower, and an Amyrlin Seat, before the Aiel even crossed the Dragonwall.  As to the one that went across the ocean, we have no idea when it went, why, or how.  We only have one recorded incident of crossings from Randland to Seanchan, and that is over two thousand years after the Tower was finished.  The seal later shows up in the hands of a direct descendant of people we know went over in that crossing.  So, there is every reason to believe that all seven seals were between the Dragonwall and the Aryth Ocean when the White Tower was founded.

 

Now, both you and cloglord asked why I think it is likely, rather than merely possible, that the first few Amyrlins knew where they all were.  There are three reasons:

 

1) It is possible.

 

2) Locating the seals have been a priority, not just for the Amyrlin, but for all the channelers.

 

3) I don't assume incompetence in the Amyrlin Seats of the time.

 

All that said, I am not saying, "This is proven fact".  I am simply saying, that its not proven wrong either.  It is quite plausible, but still, only plausible.

 

So, my initial statement, which was, "The Amyrlin's titles include "Watcher of the Seals", a remnant from the time that the Amyrlin Seat did indeed know the location of the focus points." was too assertive.  It is not proven that she did, in fact, know where all of them were at any time.

 

One last specific point.

 

How do we know that the Waste was less hospitable than anywhere else during the breaking.  After all the breaking was a time of cataclysmic change.

 

The Breaking was a hundred years done when the Aiel went over the Dragonwall.  The lands were in their current configuration.  If the Three-Fold Land had been hospitable when they got there, the "giving of water" in Cairhien would not have taken on the cultural signifigance that it did.

 

As to the Dreamers among the Jenn, I don't have a problem with that.  Why would the presence of Dreamers among the Jenn preclude the Aes Sedai from having an agenda to hide a seal?  The Dreamers could have been seeking a place of safety, and the Aes Sedai with the seal would have been looking for the same thing.

 

Let me shift my initial question from "Why would the Jenn pass over the Dragonwall?" to "Why would the Aes Sedai go with them?" 

 

Now, Luckers said that they might have been running from the Tower, which is certainly possible.  It is also entirely possible, however, that they knew that the Jenn's eventual destination would be a safe hiding place, as it proved to be.  Apparently only the seals in Rhuidean and the one at the Eye were left undisturbed from the time of their hiding until Rand found them, so it was one of the better hiding places.  Certainly the Aes Sedai of the time would have known that the Jenn (who were still Da'shain in truth) could be trusted as guardians.

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I don't think it is unlikely that that particular seal went to Seanchan with Luthair's armies, Even the second son of the High King is pretty high up.  After all, the Seal certainly came back acrosss the Aryth Ocean as a part of a personal collection.

 

As I said its a personal feeling... but that being said, however high up the second son of the High King may be, really... cuendillar as a ration on a mission to invade an unknown land? seems pointless and counter-productive.

 

All that said, I still think there is a decent chance that the first few Amyrlins did indeed know where they were.

 

Again, I don't think so. If the original Amyrlins knew of the Eye and the cargo it protected, i think it would still be known. The quote is clear in the fact that the Aes Sedai knew where the seals once were. The Eye of the World hasn't really moved, for all its transient nature.

 

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there is the fact that two of the seals were secured in their current hiding space long before the Tower was constructed or Elisane Tishar named herself Amyrlin.

 

That is simply not a fact.  There was a White Tower, and an Amyrlin Seat, before the Aiel even crossed the Dragonwall.  As to the one that went across the ocean, we have no idea when it went, why, or how.  We only have one recorded incident of crossings from Randland to Seanchan, and that is over two thousand years after the Tower was finished.  The seal later shows up in the hands of a direct descendant of people we know went over in that crossing.  So, there is every reason to believe that all seven seals were between the Dragonwall and the Aryth Ocean when the White Tower was founded.

 

Actually there is no reason to disbelieve it, which is not a reason to believe it. Turak is a collecter of Cuendillar, which voids the significance of him possessing something which is Cuendillar.

 

More specifically the presence of the seals between that area is not indicative of an Amyrlin's knowledge. We know, for instance, that the seal in the Eye was placed there four hundred years prior to Elisane become the 'Watcher of the Seals'. And whatever your comments in regaurds to the Aiel, logically the most reasonable explanation is that the seal is but one of many of the artifacts of the power they carried.

 

Now, both you and cloglord asked why I think it is likely, rather than merely possible, that the first few Amyrlins knew where they all were.  There are three reasons:

 

1) It is possible.

 

2) Locating the seals have been a priority, not just for the Amyrlin, but for all the channelers.

 

3) I don't assume incompetence in the Amyrlin Seats of the time.

 

All that said, I am not saying, "This is proven fact".  I am simply saying, that its not proven wrong either.  It is quite plausible, but still, only plausible.

 

1. Thats not really a point. It's possible that farmer joe knew the location of all the seals. Doesn't make it likely. Furthermore given the frequent statements about the loss of knowledge combined with the 400 years diverging the initial placement of the seals makes the 'it's possible' argument a tad weak.

 

2. Yes. So has defeating the Shadow and bringing peace to earth. They arn't doing so well are they?

 

3. An absolute non-point. They could be gods gift to humanity and it still infers nothing about this issue.

 

I'm left with my initial question. Why on earth is it 'likely' that the Amyrlin knew all the seals locations?

 

The Breaking was a hundred years done when the Aiel went over the Dragonwall.  The lands were in their current configuration.  If the Three-Fold Land had been hospitable when they got there, the "giving of water" in Cairhien would not have taken on the cultural signifigance that it did.

 

You forget the significance of the human elemant. Land can be very hospitable until the person living on it decides otherwise. To a people like the Jenn with their pacifistic ideals and concern for those that do them harm as well as they themselves yes... the Waste in its barren emptiness presents a very obvious and preferable choice.

 

Let me shift my initial question from "Why would the Jenn pass over the Dragonwall?" to "Why would the Aes Sedai go with them?" 

 

Now, Luckers said that they might have been running from the Tower, which is certainly possible.  It is also entirely possible, however, that they knew that the Jenn's eventual destination would be a safe hiding place, as it proved to be.  Apparently only the seals in Rhuidean and the one at the Eye were left undisturbed from the time of their hiding until Rand found them, so it was one of the better hiding places.  Certainly the Aes Sedai of the time would have known that the Jenn (who were still Da'shain in truth) could be trusted as guardians.

 

No offence but i think my answer is more likely. The question is why would Aes Sedai flee into the Waste, and that action coincides with a massive joined effort to eliminate any Aes Sedai that do not join the Tower.

 

In terms of which is more likely....

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Two things to add.

 

Aes Sedai claim to have knowledge far above that of ordinary people, but we have seen on many occasions that they have actually lost a lot of knowledge over the centuries and cover up this fact. So, although the title "Watcher over the Seals" does suggest that the first Amyrlin(s) knew the location (or thought they did) of the seals, this does not guarantee the retention of this knowledge for anything more than a few generations. Furthermore, in the days before the Oath Rod, this could even be a false claim to knowledge to reassure the general populace that the Aes Sedai were in charge and everything was OK.

 

I find it hard to see how the location of the seals could be known or guaranteed at any time during or after the Breaking. Any seal entrusted to a particular person or group of persons could easily be lost in an upheaval of land, in an attack, in a death by disease... Therefore, it seems likely that, although Aes Sedai had an idea of where the seals had been heading when they scattered them, after the Breaking began they could no longer have any true idea. So, it would then appear that they retained the title of "Watcher over the Seals" to reassure people, Aes Sedai included, that everything was under control.

 

Regarding Turak, there is no evidence that he brought the seal with him from Seanchan; he could have acquired it on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean. So to argue over how, when and why it got to Seanchan is a bit of a moot point really. We can only accept that he had it, and now it's in the Tower.

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All the male Aes Sedai went insane on the instant.

I don't think so.

It took time for them to grow mad. Remember the part with the steddings? The Ogier granted the mal Aes Sedai "asylum" to their steddings where they would be safe. But the men could not live without feeling the Source and thus they left one by one. I think Moraine said this while stating that she is from the blue Ajah which thought that the Ogier's offer helped to minimize damages while the red ajah believed that it made things worse.

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