Why oh why did Moiraine have to die

[Majsju]

So Moridin in Rands body would see the light, admit his wrongs, and ask Alivia to end his suffering, considering that Mins vision is that she will help Rand die?

 

No, I read the 'help Rand' to literally mean that she will assist Rand in killing Moridin. She will help Rand (the personality) to kill Rand's body.

 

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Even if this bodyswap would happen (and I don't believe it will, I see zero support for that theory), killing Moridin in Rands body would be killing Moridin, not Rand, since there is no Rand left in that body to kill.

 

[Luckers]

I did address this in the original posting. Death in the world of the wheel seems ascribed specifically to the physical body. Thus, yes, Rand and Alivia killing Moridin in Rand's body does fulfil the nature of that viewing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... the word "death" seems to be applied to the separation of the body and the soul ... and/or to removing a "thread" from the Pattern ...

 

So, if Rand's soul is already out of his body ... or rather, inhabits a new body, then killing Moridin isn't really Rand dying, no matter what body he's in ... because Rand's soul stays in a body, and in the Pattern.

 

There is also, to me, the problem with Rand's "death" (ie Moridin's death in Rand's body) in that scenario not being crucial to victory at Tarmon Gaidon ... I mean, the Dragon's blood on Shayol Ghul is supposed to be what saves mankind ... "in the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow" ...

 

If Rand's body doesn't die until the aftermath ... or just as a side-note ... then how is that prophecy meaningful?  I mean, Rand's not really paying a price at all ... he's getting a nice shiny new body.

 

The body-swap also does nothing to address the "twice dawns the day" bit ... but a time paradox a la balefire (as distasteful as that is to me as well) could not only help out with that, but also solve your objection based on the present tense of the "he who is dead yet lives" phrase* (which is, incidentally, the source of my "depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is" joke ... I hate not knowing if people get my humor ...)

 

Frankly ... I can't see a scenario, based on what we know, that satisfies all the prophecies in their entirety.  I can find reasonable objections to everything proposed ... including the various theories I've espoused or put forward from time to time ... which is great!  It means there's a surprise in store.

 

*I'm basing my grammatical assessment there on the subjective (point of view, not to be confused with the subjunctive tense) phrasing given to balefire paradox incidents like Mat's death/not death in Caemlyn.  The Aelfinn, in predicting that incident, gave it a sequential phrasing ("to die, and live again"), even though in a temporal sense, it wasn't (because balefire violates the idea of a temporal continuum).  Thus, although we know that balefire doesn't actually turn back time, causing a day to dawn twice, it could subjectively cause the day to dawn twice for someone (Rand) and thus fulfill the prophecy as well as allow someone to be both subjectively dead and alive at the same point in time, since that person would have experienced that point in time twice, even though they wouldn't remember it.

[Luckers]

Firstly, my position is that the semantics are there for that reality, not that the semantics cant also be twisted to the otherside. I was responding specifically to the comment that it 'makes no sense'.

 

Secondly, i never included the 'blood' comments in my original thread because i agree with you. I actually dont think those prophecies--either the blood or the two dawns--refers to the moment of Rand's death. To be fair my main basis behind that is that too many characters simply assume that to be the meaning, but yeah... blood doesn't nessasarily imply death--indeed, if that were the case why not say it. Usually when people refer to shedding blood for a cause it doesn't result in death. It's implying active pain as a result of championing that cause, but when its martyrdom....

 

Thirdly, i dont believe the balefire scenario provides for the second dawn. In terms of what we've witnessed the effects of balefire are merely altered. People don't even remember the replaced set of events occuring. So the subjectivity argument doesn't really hold much wait... to my mind anyway.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Those are good points regarding balefire, some of which I had already acknowledged ... my point was (which I think you acknowledged as well) that many of those arguments can go either way ... I won't get into a point by point discussion here, because I've decided that my position can be best described by this sentence:

 

Frankly ... I can't see a scenario, based only on what we know now, that satisfies all the prophecies in their entirety.

 

Because:

 

I can find reasonable objections to everything proposed ... including the various theories I've espoused or put forward from time to time ... which is great!

 

Therefore:

 

It means there's a surprise in store.

[Majsju]

Semantics are important. Granted, we do not know Mins exact wording, since we hear it from Rand. But one thing seems quite certain, Rand sees the distinction between die and kill as quite important. The viewing is not "She will help have me killed". There is quite a  difference. 

 

Of course, IMO it does not matter much, since I don't believe in any kind of bodyswapping other than what the DO does when the forsaken are recycled, and I kinda doubt the DO would be interested in giving his nemesis a perfectly functioning body, and his own #1 Big Bad a body about to fall apart.

[Luckers]

Keep in mind that we have seen other soul manipulation, up to and including an event of a bodyswap level nature. Dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies all the time, Machin Shin removes souls, as does the hedgehog ter'angreal and to a lesser extent the dream ter'angreal. Perrin in some manner placed Faile's soul back in her body after it was removed, or at the very least facilitated its return. And to my mind the largest one is Mordeth placed himself in Fain's body, and lacking the Dark One's alterations should have been able to evict Fain. That is a direct bodyswap event, and the only influence the Dark One had was to hinder it.

 

Soul manipulation isn't that rare.

 

Semantics are important. Granted, we do not know Mins exact wording, since we hear it from Rand. But one thing seems quite certain, Rand sees the distinction between die and kill as quite important. The viewing is not "She will help have me killed". There is quite a  difference.

 

On the other hand, concider that Alivia helping Rand kill Moridin is in effect helping Rand to die--in the eyes of the world, that would be the end of Rand, giving Rand the obscurity and freedom to gain a new life outside of his roll as the Dragon, which he otherwise would have never have been free of.

[Hokuten]

I really don't like this body swap theory.  What in Robert Jordan's magical system leads anyone to believe that this is even possible?!

 

Pulling one soul and personality from a body and swapping it with another has no basis for reality in RJs world and magical system.  This body swapping idea seams to be some kind of shit Terry Goodkind would miraculously invent at the last second to win the day(yes, i've read his entire series and I know want to kick him in the balls for ruining the last half of it).

 

Speculating on this end is next to pointless because of how many ways RJ could have wrapped this up.  There are billions of possible endings...some of them good, some bad, some ridiculous.  Like Bela saving the world because Bela is actually a magical cow in the form of a horse...that transforms into a parrot that switches bodies with Rand and then Mordeth...and then is eaten by the DO.  Then explodeds...

 

Anyway...back on topic.  Nothing so far in this series suggests that magic can effect someones soul.  Nothing suggests that you can remove a personality through the magic either.  You can modify it through compulsion and other pain/pleasure techniques...but nothing so far can modify the soul/personality.

 

People cannot even detect LLT and Rand in the same body.  Death cannot be healed because the soul has left the body.  They cannot prevent the soul from leaving a body when someone dies.  They cannot heal someone who has gone crazy because of the former taint.

 

The ONLY entities that have the power to control a soul/personality have been the Dark One and the Creator.

 

In the case of dreamwalkers, their consciousness leaves the body...not the soul.  The body cannot live without the mind.  But they are still tied to that body, they can't miraculously pop out in someone elses body.

 

Machin Shin is derived from the DO and the taint put on Saidin...but not Saidin itself.  Shadar Logoth also removes souls, but it is not created from Saidin/Saidar.

 

I just don't see anywhere in this series where something like this is possible.  And if it is the ending i'll be pissed b/c I honestly think an ending like that for this series would be retarded.  Yeah, lets pull a Freaky Friday at the end of one of the greatest fantasy epics of all time. 

[Majsju]

None of those examples comes even remotely close to a hypothetic bodyswap.

 

Dreamwalking, as I see it, is RJs version of entering the astral plane. The soul does not completely leave the body, there is a connection that allows you to return. Unless you're stupid enough to do what Perrin almost did, entering too strongly for too longly, in which case the soul will be lost drifting in T'A'R.

 

Mordeth entering Fain...Even if he had been able to evict Fain it would not be a bodyswap, since Mordeth did not actually possess a body to evict Fain into. Unlike Rand and Moridin, Mordeth was very much dead, and ghosts possessing other peoples bodies is quite a different story.

 

Machin Shin and tools like the hedgehog are external forces capable of removing a soul. But MS does not fill the empty body with a new soul, or even enters the body itself, it just consumes the soul. And the hedgehog seems to work just like actual dreamwalking, the soul does not completely leave the body, a faint connection is still there for some time, otherwise Faile would not have been able to return.

 

But with Rand and Moridin, you have two living persons, whose souls are very much where they are supposed to be. Somehow connected, yes, but how that would lead to their souls packing the bags and leave...

 

Incidently, if Rand was correct in TDR, that Ishy was trying to rip his soul out of his body, it is apparently possible to prevent such a thing from happening. Something both of them would be quite interested in doing.

 

On the other hand, concider that Alivia helping Rand kill Moridin is in effect helping Rand to die--in the eyes of the world, that would be the end of Rand, giving Rand the obscurity and freedom to gain a new life outside of his roll as the Dragon, which he otherwise would have never have been free of.

 

Would it now? Quite a few people know about Rands connection to Min, Avi and Elayne. Moridin, being built quite similar to Rand, entering their lives, a bit too fond of the kids just might raise a few eyebrows. Especially among channelers knowing about Mask of Mirrors.

 

So to get his obscurity and freedom he would have to meet them in secret. Something he could just as easily do looking mostly like his own self. Just by dying his hair black, he could walk happily around in Far Madding with noone except those very familiar with his look noticing anything. Heck, when he entered the rebels camp in Cairhien, only one person who had never actually seen him before figured out who he was.

 

That's of course assuming Rand actually survives TG, which I really hope he does not.

[DemandredFO]

I see the semantics issue as a little unnecessary, prophecies in Randland are not spelled out.  Example, healing the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.  Now, we know what that means, Cleansing Saidin, but the prophecy was in riddle form.  As I see it, helping Rand to die is vague enough and besides as stated all people would see, if anyone did was Alivia and "Moridin" killing "Rand".

[Luckers]

None of those examples comes even remotely close to a hypothetic bodyswap.

 

I never said they did. Well, no, Fain does, whatever you want to say about it that involved souls leaving and new souls taking over seperate of the dark one.

 

But no where have i said that the bodyswap has occured before. I said soul manipulation and migrations is relatively common, which it is. Dreamwalkers souls are the parts that leave there body, we know this through Perrin, and we also know through Perrin that they can leave entirely. Furthermore we know that dreamwalkers can pull out other peoples souls. Machin Shin removes souls. We have ter'angreal that are capable of manipulating, removing or facilitating in the migration of souls showing that joe-random channeler can achieve that.

 

Soul manipulation and migration is common. Incredibly common. The bodyswap will occur because a very unique connection formed between Rand and Moridin, so yes, of course it hasn't been witness before. That part is very rare. Soul migration is not.

 

Since i pretty much agree with everything you said about all of the incidences of soul manipulation i wont comment on them. I still remain to see how any of that is an argument against my position, but meh.

 

But with Rand and Moridin, you have two living persons, whose souls are very much where they are supposed to be. Somehow connected, yes, but how that would lead to their souls packing the bags and leave...

 

Saidin seems to be the facilitating factor in the bond, therefore my guess is that the bodyswap will result specifically from both using saidin at the same time. Proximity may also play a part. My guess is that Rand again cuts Moridin's black threads, which as we saw in tDR does seem to cut him off from the True Power, thus resulting in a situation that causes Moridin to draw on saidin, thus causing the bodyswap. Fairly simple really.

 

Incidently, if Rand was correct in TDR, that Ishy was trying to rip his soul out of his body, it is apparently possible to prevent such a thing from happening. Something both of them would be quite interested in doing.

 

This is a different scenario--a reality i would have thought occured to you given your above presentation.

 

In any case we have seen that neither Rand nor Moridin are able to resist the effects of the link between them, so its a moot point.

 

Would it now? Quite a few people know about Rands connection to Min, Avi and Elayne. Moridin, being built quite similar to Rand, entering their lives, a bit too fond of the kids just might raise a few eyebrows. Especially among channelers knowing about Mask of Mirrors.

 

Firslt, it was purerly a pointless argument in semantics since i concider the 'death' requirement to be completely fulfilled by the death of his body, but yeah, i think that a dead-rand-body would grant him the annonymity and distance to get his crap together so to speak.

 

In the long run i have no doubt that Rand will still be a figure in the world. As RJ said, this story wont be neatly closed off, and i dont see Rand merely retiring for good. By that stage he'd married to the Queen of two realms and a Wise One. Whether he wants it or not, he's still too close to the lime light to fade completely. But for a time, yes, that 'death' would be good for Rand. A chance to relax, to heal, and even to grow up a bit.

 

But come on, the mans going to live for seven hundred years--assuming he survives of course, which I am--sooner or late its going to get out who he is.

 

So to get his obscurity and freedom he would have to meet them in secret. Something he could just as easily do looking mostly like his own self. Just by dying his hair black, he could walk happily around in Far Madding with noone except those very familiar with his look noticing anything. Heck, when he entered the rebels camp in Cairhien, only one person who had never actually seen him before figured out who he was.

 

A one handed Aielman who can channel? With dragons on his arms and problems with his eyes?

 

You're right, he'll blend right in with black hair.

 

But in any case i was speaking of people knowing that Rand died. Possibly part of the aid Alivia will offer is to see to a funeral with his body displayed for all. After all there are funeral piers in many of the visions and dreams.

[Majsju]

I never said they did. Well, no, Fain does, whatever you want to say about it that involved souls leaving and new souls taking over seperate of the dark one.

 

Actually, Fain is pretty much the same thing as the DO recucling forsaken: the soul of a dead person entering the body of a not-so-dead person.

 

Still, neither Rand nor Moridin are dead, so it is a completely different scenario.

 

When dreamwalkers leave their bodies, they enter another reality, not another body. It's not like Perrin could have accidently entered Failes body if he had not been careful...

 

Soul manipulation and migration is common. Incredibly common. The bodyswap will occur because a very unique connection formed between Rand and Moridin, so yes, of course it hasn't been witness before. That part is very rare. Soul migration is not.

 

Depends on what you mean with soul migration. Leaving the body is one thing. Forcibly entering someone elses body is something completely different. That is something we have only seen the souls of dead people being able to do, in all cases except one with the assistance of the DO.

 

There is a unique connection between Rand and Moridin, yes. But I don't see that connection having anything to do with the soul. Rather, I see it somewhat vaguely reminiscant of a mind trap.

 

Saidin seems to be the facilitating factor in the bond, therefore my guess is that the bodyswap will result specifically from both using saidin at the same time. Proximity may also play a part. My guess is that Rand again cuts Moridin's black threads, which as we saw in tDR does seem to cut him off from the True Power, thus resulting in a situation that causes Moridin to draw on saidin, thus causing the bodyswap. Fairly simple really.

 

From what we have seen, Moridin is using TP pretty much exclusively, and yet the symptoms are growing worse. Seems to me like Moridin using Saidin would not cause the same symptoms.

 

This is a different scenario--a reality i would have thought occured to you given your above presentation.

 

In any case we have seen that neither Rand nor Moridin are able to resist the effects of the link between them, so its a moot point.

 

What Rand and Moridin are experiencing are not their souls being ripped out of their bodies, which means they can not react as Rand did in tear when he put a stop to it.

 

A one handed Aielman who can channel? With dragons on his arms and problems with his eyes?

 

Dyed hair - Not an Aielman.

An artificial hand covered by a glove would hide the stump as long as he does not try to use said hand. Even if he decided not to hide it, we are talking after TG, there will be no shortage of people missing various bodyparts.

Don't channel where anyone can see - Noone knows he can channel.

Dragons on his arms? It's not like t-shirts are becoming the latest fashion in Randland anytime soon. The bit showing on his remaining hand can either be covered by a glove, or Elayne could give him a lesson or two about make-up.

Problems with his eyes? Have a little faith in Nynaeve, she will need something to keep her occupied with Lan being dead.

 

But in any case i was speaking of people knowing that Rand died. Possibly part of the aid Alivia will offer is to see to a funeral with his body displayed for all. After all there are funeral piers in many of the visions and dreams.

 

Find suitable body. Weave Mask of Mirrors. Put said body on a funeral pyre.  Light fire. Rand is "dead".

[RobertAlexWillis]

Possibly part of the aid Alivia will offer is to see to a funeral with his body displayed for all.

 

I would be ... dreadfully disappointed if that was what Min's viewing meant ...

 

From what we have seen, Moridin is using TP pretty much exclusively, and yet the symptoms are growing worse. Seems to me like Moridin using Saidin would not cause the same symptoms.

 

Actually, Maj, there are indications that Moridin using saidin would cause the same symptoms.  When Rand was in Far Madding, he had a bout of the same nausea that he gets when seizing the Source, and sees Moridin's face ... but obviously, he wasn't channeling (WH ch 22).  That was probably Moridin testing to see if the link still did something while Rand was within the stedding-mimicking field of the Far Madding ter'angreal by seizing saidin.

 

I don't think that this will go from "nausea" to "exchanging bodies", but the connection does seem to work both ways.  "Merge into each other" can mean plenty of things besides actually exchanging bodies ... simply increasing the mental connection they have now could qualify.

 

What I could see happening, is Moridin trying to take over Rand's body, and failing ...

 

[Majsju]

Actually, Maj, there are indications that Moridin using saidin would cause the same symptoms.  When Rand was in Far Madding, he had a bout of the same nausea that he gets when seizing the Source, and sees Moridin's face ... but obviously, he wasn't channeling (WH ch 22).  That was probably Moridin testing to see if the link still did something while Rand was within the stedding-mimicking field of the Far Madding ter'angreal by seizing saidin.

 

Or Moridin seizing TP, as it seems very obvious it is the moment of seizing Saidin that gives Rand the blurries, not continuing to hold it. Rand does not react very much that it happens without him seizing Saidin, which hints at it not being the first time.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Or Moridin seizing TP, as it seems very obvious it is the moment of seizing Saidin that gives Rand the blurries, not continuing to hold it.  Rand does not react very much that it happens without him seizing Saidin, which hints at it not being the first time.

 

Um ... Rand doesn't react much to his hand being blown off, so I wouldn't take Rand's lack of reaction as indicating anything.

 

Moridin uses the True Power frequently ... it is all but inconceivable to me that there would be no other mention of Rand having nausea and seeing the face, if it was triggered every time Moridin used the True Power.  The episode in Far Madding is the only time when Rand was cut off from the Source and Moridin knew it ... so it is the logical time for him to test the connection.

[safwd]

While i like the male characters better i think RJ did a good job with the females. I have always liked Egwene, Min and the others are winning me over.

And Moiraine is not dead. Thom and Mat will rescue her and then she will marry Thom.

And im not sure how Alivia will help Rand die but he wont stay dead. Nyneave is going to finally heal death itself. Didnt Rand get some prophesy along the lines of "To live you must die" or something like that?

[Majsju]

Moridin uses the True Power frequently ... it is all but inconceivable to me that there would be no other mention of Rand having nausea and seeing the face, if it was triggered every time Moridin used the True Power.  The episode in Far Madding is the only time when Rand was cut off from the Source and Moridin knew it ... so it is the logical time for him to test the connection.

 

Rand gets sick when he seizes Saidin, once he has cleared his head he can channel just fine. It should be the same the other way, he gets sick when Moridin seizes TP, not when Moridin uses TP. And I can easily see Moridin being so addicted he only lets go when he sleeps, or goes to the loo (bad place to have enhanced senses...*g*)

[RobertAlexWillis]

And I can easily see Moridin being so addicted he only lets go when he sleeps

 

Yes, well, even assuming that is true (which I don't) Rand should still have unexplained nausea with facial sightings at least daily ... and we don't see that.

 

I'm sorry, but the indications are clearly not there.

[Majsju]

The symptoms are getting worse for each book, it should have taken some time before they started to get dissiness from eachothers seizing of the power. The effect Rand feels in WH is not very strong at all, since he is able to shrug it off quite quickly. Incidently, from the start of WH til now we have not seen very much of Rand.

 

That he does not think twice about getting dissy in far Madding is a very strong indication that it has happened before. He is constantly frdetting about the symptoms he gets when he seizes Saidin, of course he would give it at least a thought if getting dissy when he is not even able to seize Saidin was something coming completely out of the blue. But instead he starts thinking about how many Aiel he has seen in FM.

[DemandredFO]

I think it's WH, but I could be wrong.  I think Cadsuane mentions something about Rand having an episode when he wasn't channeling.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That he does not think twice about getting dissy in far Madding is a very strong indication that it has happened before.

 

I don't think its a strong indication of anything ... except the fact that he's concentrating on trying to follow Rochaid through the crowd.

 

But -shrug- we disagree.  I suppose we'll see what happens.

 

He is constantly frdetting about the symptoms he gets when he seizes Saidin, of course he would give it at least a thought if getting dissy when he is not even able to seize Saidin was something coming completely out of the blue.

 

And yet, in all that fretting, we don't get anything like, "Lately, he'd started feeling the dizziness even when he wasn't seizing the source ... the face intruding on his vision time and again."

 

As much as he thinks about it, every time we do see him, you'd think he'd have mentioned or thought about that ... just once.  If anyone can find it, I'd like to see it.  Moridin uses the True Power frequently, and yet that time in Far Madding is the only time, in any of Rand's POV's, that he gets the nausea and sees the face without seizing the Source himself.