dreams

[Guest leebarr]

the aiel wise ones say if you enter the world of dreams in the flesh you lose apart of yourself. if this is true is that way rand's mind is in the shape it's in or is it sololy have to do with the one power.

[fireblade]

It doesn't have to do with the power anyone can enter, like when they see other people fading in or out.

[Lord_Naryb]

no,no,no, leebarr is referring to the question of whether Rand's insanity is a result of his physically entering T'A'R or a result of the Taint. I believe it is a combination of both, but the vast majority is a result of the Taint.

[fireblade]

OHHHHH ok ;)

[Luckers]

It remains uncertain, yet personally i doubt the truth of the Wise Ones claims. Their basis for the knowledge is a combination of the fact that the Shadow used this method heavily in the war of the power and the argument that 'this must be the case because it is known and has been taught to be the case'.

 

Frankly, i suspect its superstition. Possibly elitism too--look at the way they react to the use of Dream Ter'angreal.

[Child of Lir]

I'm not no sure it's only superstition Luckers. Doesn't Birgitte warn Perrin that Slayer is dangerous becaue he is in "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh? Whether being there in the flesh makes a person evil, or the being there is a thing that can be used for evil, remains to be seen, but we do know that the Luc / Isam construct is evil and that he enters "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh so there is some link. Of course, there is definately some elitism amongst the Wise Ones - after all, they haven't seen any Dreamers apart from themselves there for hundreds of years, so would naturally regard it as their domain.

[Digbe]

Quick question. A little off topic but not necessarily...

 

Wolves' souls live or are recycled in Tela, could it be possible to get darkhounds to into tela to kill the wolves under the guidance of L/Isam?  I think this would be a good twist in AMOL if RJ wanted to give Perrin a 'final' showdown test for him to maintain his sanity against his wolf nature.  Entering in the flesh would alter his soul and would lose more of his 'humanness' while fighting theDarkhounds and Isam.

 

Any feedback would be appreciated on this matter.

[Lune]

I'm not no sure it's only superstition Luckers. Doesn't Birgitte warn Perrin that Slayer is dangerous becaue he is in "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh? Whether being there in the flesh makes a person evil, or the being there is a thing that can be used for evil, remains to be seen, but we do know that the Luc / Isam construct is evil and that he enters "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh so there is some link. Of course, there is definately some elitism amongst the Wise Ones - after all, they haven't seen any Dreamers apart from themselves there for hundreds of years, so would naturally regard it as their domain.

 

Being in TAR doesn't make someone evil. Skimming, I think involves entering TAR in the flesh. Maybe bodily entering TAR gives some other sort of advantage as well?  :-\

[Luckers]

Doesn't Birgitte warn Perrin that Slayer is dangerous becaue he is in "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh?

 

I'm not sure i remember that quote specifically, but in any case Birgitte is right. A person who is present in the flesh is more dangerous than a person who is dreaming, at least according to Moghedian in tFoH.

 

That being said, that has no relevance to the effect entering the dream in the flesh has on an individuals soul.

 

Whether being there in the flesh makes a person evil, or the being there is a thing that can be used for evil, remains to be seen

 

This is a very relevant issue. The Wise Ones claim that being present in the flesh makes an individual evil, yet their basis is that those that they know of who entered the dream in the flesh used it for evil.

 

This, in itself is the function of my objection. Their claim stems from the memories of the actions of the Forsaken, yet the Forsaken were 'evil' and therefore their actions serve the function of their position, and there is no basis for the claim that their being in the dream in the flesh was the cause of their evil actions.

 

but we do know that the Luc / Isam construct is evil and that he enters "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh so there is some link.

 

Yeah, and both Egwene and Rand have entered the dream in the flesh, and they arn't evil.

 

The issue is that the suggestion that entering the dream in the flesh makes a person evil stems from the fact that the Forsaken entered the dream in the flesh and proceeded to do evil. Yet since the Forsaken were evil in the first place, the argument has no grounds. Lacking evidence beyond that, and including Egwene and Rand's experiences, neither of which result in a specific 'evilness', i simply see no evidence for the claim.

 

Beyond which, on the issue of the possibility that Rand's insanity is caused, or aided by his experiences in TAR... Rand's ailment comes from an over-abundence of soul, whilst the Wise Ones claim is that your lose your soul. A contradiction in terms, if you ask me.

 

 

[Darkness Incarnated]

The way I had understood it is, the Wise Ones were talking about constant and prolonged use of T'A'R in the flesh? That it gradually has that effect on you. Rand states that he 'sometimes' went there, so it cannot be considered a constant use, and Egwene used it that one time, I'm not aware of any other.

That aside, I agree with Luckers, as far I can see the Wise Ones have memories of the Forsaken using it for their evil ends, and that colored their perception of entering T'A'R in the flesh. Plus, as has been mentioned, they consider themselves masters in that area, and since they don't do it, then it's evil.

 

About what the wolf told Perrin, I think it's a different case. He was dreaming himself in T'A'R, only his soul was there, not his body. It was dangerous because it was too much there, it could have been 'ripped' from his body in the waking world. I don't see why that would be relevant if you went there with both your soul and body.

 

As an aside note, is there any practical way to tell whether someone is there in the flessh or simply dreaming?

[Ahaz Flagg]

I belive Luckers has the gist of it, at no time did i belive the wise ones were correct in what they had told Egwene.  There is way to much knowledge that has been lost, or in the case of Tower,they believe they are all knowing, yet it has been proved again and again how much they need to learn.  From what little we know of TAR, there simply is no proof at all that it would, could make you Evil.

 

In the case of Lord Luc, did he not take a trip to SG?  I mean if the DO, could do what he did to Fain, could he not do something to Luc also?  There is no direct proof that TAR has ever affected Luc. We all know that that Wise Ones are arroagnt and all knowing, and for over 400 years TAR was their playground.

[TheRedSon]

I think the Wise Ones are arrogant, but I also think they are right.  They said entering in the flesh is evil because you lose part of your soul.  There's not much to go on other than that but...

 

After entering in the flesh in tFoH LTT has much more access to Rand's soul indicating the act may have made him more vulnerable.  Egwene's soul wasn't also competing with a wound that is literally evil or the damage done by the taint.

 

I think Slayer is a prime example of the danger of entering in the flesh.  How much of the Slayer soul is still Luc and how much is Isam.  I think entering T'A'R in the flesh was the lever that allowed Isam to latch on to Luc's soul thus creating Slayer.

[DonDew]

  Aes Sedai believed that stilling could not be cured because it had never been done.

  Wise Ones believe that it is a bad thing to enter TAR in the flesh because only the bad guys have done it.

  And I also think that Luc/Isam's ability comes from the DO. Fain/Mordeth has some small abilities controlling what people see by manipulating the World of Dreams to a minor extent which,IIRC was a "gift" from the DO to aid his hunt,and not an effect of Mashadar.

[Mr Ares]

I think the Wise Ones are arrogant, but I also think they are right.  They said entering in the flesh is evil because you lose part of your soul.  There's not much to go on other than that but...

 

After entering in the flesh in tFoH LTT has much more access to Rand's soul indicating the act may have made him more vulnerable.  Egwene's soul wasn't also competing with a wound that is literally evil or the damage done by the taint.

 

I think Slayer is a prime example of the danger of entering in the flesh.  How much of the Slayer soul is still Luc and how much is Isam.  I think entering T'A'R in the flesh was the lever that allowed Isam to latch on to Luc's soul thus creating Slayer.

The problem with your Luc/Isam example is how the hell did Luc get into T'A'R in the flesh in the first place? We see chanelers able to do this. We know Slayer is unique (and not a channeler), and we know that he has received "gifts" from Shai'tan. I think it more likely that it is the gifts that he received from Shai'tan in the first place that made him able to get into T'A'R in the flesh in the first place, as well as making "adjustments" to them to make them into Slayer. Basically, it was being made into Slayer that gave him the ability to enter in the flesh, so the damge was already done by the time they got there, as opposed to the damage being done by being there. As for the problems associated with entering T'A'R in the flesh, while Slayer has been described as having an "inhuman scent" he is also, as previously mentioned, unique in many respects. As it is, we have no clear and unambiguous evidence pointing to a loss of humanity in those who enter in the flesh. One might as well cite Ishamael as an example - he spends much time in T'A'R, and is described as "less than half human". Of course, that is more likely an effect of the True Power. The manifestation of LTT as a distinct personality within Rand is more likely related to the destabilizing effects of the Taint on the mind as opposed to anything to do with visiting the World of Dreams in the flesh. As it is, all we have is the unsupported word of the Wise Ones. how much faith do you have in them?