Where is The Choedan Kal

[Vambram]

Here is the offical information about the Choedan Kal. 

 

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/items/giant_statue.html

 

and according to http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/items/control_statue.html at the bottom of the page, Cadsuane Aes Sedai took the male access key after saidin was cleansed in Winter's Heart chapter 35. I apologise for repeating this question from a thread over in the Structered Debate links here. However, I hope to spur more answers and discussion specifically about the Choedan Kal and the surving access key. I have been unable to find any further mention of the location of the male access key for the Choedan Kal in CoT or in KoD. Does this mean that Cadsuane still has it?

 

[bcxanth]

Cadsuane took the access key, and went off with Rand. Therefore it's still with Rand's party. As to if Cadsuane still has it in her actual possession, or if she turned it back over to Rand, there's nothing that's been said either way. However, given Cadsuane's personality, I don't think she'd be likely to give it back to Rand once she had it.

[Vambram]

Thats what I am thinking about the access key, also. However, for two whole books after the access keys were used, there seems to be absolutely Zero mention of them, which I find to be a bit curious, and causes me to raise up this question about the male access key.

Oh, and if my memory is correct, the female access key was destroyed, or melted down after Nynaeve was through using it to help Rand cleanse the taint from saidin, correct?

 

[bcxanth]

Yeah, the female key melted into a lump basically.  As for no mention of the male key, I don't find it curious really. It's served its purpose for now, and until it's going to be used again there's no need to mention it. After all we went for a while in the middle of the series with no mention of them until Rand started having thoughts about how to use them to cleanse the source. So I think that right now, Rand has no use for it, and so isn't thinking about them and so no mention. That's just the way I see it though.

[Luckers]

I highly doubt Cadsuane intends to keep the Access Key from Rand. Most probably Rand already has it back in his possession, because it defeats Cadsuane's purpose to retain it. Yes, she will antagonize Rand, but only for the specific purpose of aiding him, which he is aware of. Witholding the Access Key would reek too much of her empowering her own position, and that would be detrimental to her purpose.

 

Beyond which, it is not in Cadsuane's nature to steal other peoples power. People misplace that. Her method is simply the supreme confidence in herself. That usually results in people getting walked all over, but thats simply in her dealing with their idiosyncracies. She doesn't require people becoming less--just look at what she does when she does encounter people that act intelligent and calm--Verin, Sorilea, so forth. She treats them with the respect their demenours demand. She never tries to weaken others to make herself strong, nor would she hold onto a source of power for someone else merely because she has it in her grasp--she might keep it if she saw a specific need, or purpose, yet in this situation it is detrimental to her needs and her purpose.

 

And yes, the female Access Key, and the actual sa'angreal itself on tremalking both melted as a result of the strain placed on them by the method Rand used to cleanse saidin.

[bcxanth]

I don't think Cadsuane would actually keep it from him, no. I just think it's possible that, as Rand currently has no need for it, he's not going to be asking her for it. And that she may believe she's the most qualified person to look after it so probably wouldn't just go voluntarily giving it back without being asked.

[Luckers]

I don't really have a problem with the first, but i don't nessasarily think the latter is likely. Cadsuane does not delude herself about what she is capable of. If there was a need for someone to protect it, and no other likely candidates put themselves forward, then she would firgure out a way. Lacking that, and in the face of Rand's successful ownership, i don't see Cadsuane thinking about whether the Choedan Kal should be in her care or not, and if she did think about it, she would still turn the thing over to him in the face of the fact that she has no specific reason to think herself better at the job then him.

[lou]

dont you think the CK would be far too dangerous to use now without the female access key? it seems the CK was meant to be used (safely) with both sides of the power, male and female, much in the way that callandar was made. the "flaw" i think it was called by cadsuane.

remember what happened when rand used callander against the seanchan? he killed as many of his own men as he did the enemy. "i am the storm" indeed.

[Cybertrolloc]

Different situation lou, you're due for a reread ;)

 

Don't forget, Cads had Callandor as well after the Cleansing, but I don't think she's playing keep-away with them ;)

[Vambram]

I am sure that Cadsuane will hand over Callandor and the male access key to the Choedan Kal when Rand needs them. However, has their been any specific mention for the location of Callandor in CoT or in KoD? Hmm, guess its time to do some more research back into the books, and into the wot encyclopedia. :)

[Gentled Ben]

Doesn't Narishma still have Callandor?

[Vambram]

According to this: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/items/callandor.html

 

the last know location of Callandor is in possession of Cadsuane after the battle in Winter's Heart, chapter 35. Using the wot encyclopdia, my research shows that the last known location of Callandor and also the male access key for the Choedan Kal shows that they are in possession by Cadsuane. Therefore, she is safeguarding them until comes the time when those awesomely powerful items are used once again.  8)

[Gentled Ben]

I guess she's a collector of male sa'angreal, then. Maybe she'll open an antique shop!  :P

I wonder if she has the little fat man angreal, too.

[Vambram]

*chuckles* she just might, man. Ya never know!

 

Hmmm, I am not sure what did happen to that little fat man angreal which Rand used to rely upon quite often. I think that angreal got burnt out, used up, and melted down with excess saidin after Rand or one of the Asha'man used it not too long ago in the books.

[Charlz Guybon]

*chuckles* she just might, man. Ya never know!

 

Hmmm, I am not sure what did happen to that little fat man angreal which Rand used to rely upon quite often. I think that angreal got burnt out, used up, and melted down with excess saidin after Rand or one of the Asha'man used it not too long ago in the books.

The Aes Sedai who kidnapped him confiscated it and we don't know what happened to it. Rand searched the wreckage of Dumai's Well for it, but never found it.

[Vambram]

Okay, thank you, Charlez. That sounds right, also. :)

[Luckers]

dont you think the CK would be far too dangerous to use now without the female access key? it seems the CK was meant to be used (safely) with both sides of the power, male and female, much in the way that callandar was made. the "flaw" i think it was called by cadsuane.

remember what happened when rand used callander against the seanchan? he killed as many of his own men as he did the enemy. "i am the storm" indeed.

 

The flaw in Callandor is specific to Callandor, and resulted from 'declining manufacturing standards during the latter part of the War of the Shadow'. The Choedan Kal never had that flaw, and we have indeed seen it used seperate of the female half without causing the insanity witnessed when Rand used Callandor.

 

Using the wot encyclopdia, my research shows that the last known location of Callandor and also the male access key for the Choedan Kal shows that they are in possession by Cadsuane. Therefore, she is safeguarding them until comes the time when those awesomely powerful items are used once again. 

 

The fact that she took hold of them following the cleansing does not mean she retained hold of them. With Rand unconcious she was the next in line for leadership, when Rand returned to conciousness, though, she gave up the reigns of power. It is possible he let her keep them for the time being, but she wouldn't have made an effort to hold on to them.

 

 

[Vambram]

Since there has been no mention of the location of the male access key or Callandor in KoD, then whatever any of us say about them concerning as to where they are specifically, is merely only conjecture, I guess. So, thats what we are doing. ;)

[Digbe]

Currently, Rand is a friggin' lunatic.  Cadsy has to be holding on to it until the time is right, but until then, I am sure she is awfully warey and careful not to let rand go for a spin around the block. Besides, Rand is probably oblivious to it at the moment.  I think that his shcizoprenia has manifested so bad that he would only randomly be aware of its existance. IMO  If you catch my drift.

[lou]

what i meant by the comparison to callandar was that it seems the CK was meant to be used by the two sides to be safely used at all. it seems like it was meant to be used in that way. the only other time we see it used is when rand and asmo are fighting over the access key in rhuidian, and after that little fight it looked as if the city had been picked up and tossed around.

no, i dont think cads will try to keep any of the tools rand might need to fight the DO at TG.

[Elwinn Taron]

Actually, I think they are still in Cadsuane's possession.  She would never pass up a chance to make Rand ask POLITELY if he could please have them. And then she would want to know WHY he wanted them, and HOW he wanted to use them.  Remember, for all she insists on him being mannerly, she seldom is herself.

[Vambram]

I think that you are right, Elwinn

[Luckers]

I don't. Oh, she would require Rand to be polite in his request, but she would not ask him why or how he wanted to use them. It would overstep the boundaries she had placed on their relationship, and would be destructive to her intentions--she holds to being an advisor only, and she makes him come to her with his plans and requests.

 

Additionally, she is perfectly mannerly when peoples actions show them worthy of respect. With Verin, with Sorilea. She merely treats people as they show themself worthy, and withholding the sa'angreal that are Rand's already is the act of a petulant child, not that of a woman dealing with a petulant child, which is where all of Cadsuane's so called unmannerliness comes from.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I would be very surprised if one of the first things out of Rand's mouth when he woke up wasn't, "Where are the access keys?"  Obviously he would have been informed that the female one was broken (he probably would have wanted to see it).  So, if Cadsuane does still have the remaining one, it is with Rand's approval, and I doubt that she would want that, or that he would want it that way. 

 

If she even tried to keep it from him against his will, that would rupture their relationship irreversibly, which she knows, and he knows, and RJ assumes that we, as functional humans, know.  Therefore he didn't feel obligated to recount that conversation.

 

Would she have demanded that he be polite about it?  Sure.  Would that have been a big deal?  Not really.  Does she trust him with the Choedan Kal?  Absolutely.  She trusted him with it when she knew for a fact that saidin was tainted.  She knows he respects the power it gives him, and she is pretty sure that the only thing he's ever done with it, since it came fully into his possession, is get rid of the most dangerous city humans ever corrupted and cleanse the Dark One's taint from half of the force that drives time.

 

I don't know why people think Cadsuane is so stupid as to not recognize what Rand has done.  She trusts him with the world.  She's more honest with him than 90 percent of his "followers", and arguably more capable than any of them.

 

Edited for clarity ... its amazing how two little letters can change the meaning of a sentence ...

[Vambram]

The main reason why I doubt that those two items are currently in Rand's possession is because there was virtually ZERO mention of them by Rand or anyone else in CoT or in KoD.