Confusion about DO

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

So is the DO specifically a "he"? Is that why he could taint saidin and not saidar? Where did the DO come from anyway? And what is it/he/she?  :o

 

I assume the Creator is neither he nor she because the Creator created everything and both saidar and saidin...but now that I've thoroughly confused myself, maybe someone else can please shed some light on all this.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Is the voice at Shayol Ghul male? I don't remember whether it says...

[Seriodor]

Actually the reason he was able to taint Saidin only is because the 100 companions that Lews Therin brought against Shayol Ghul were all male. The women had decided to place there trust in the Choeden Kal, and stay behind.

[DubbleChrisP]

Is the voice at Shayol Ghul male? I don't remember whether it says...

I don't believe a gender is ever applied to him. Because he is a generally dark, mysterious, and evil entity, we attribute the male gender to him. He has no gender, but his traits, if they must be classified as either gender, are almost inarguably masculine. I believe it might simply be the power that both the DO and the Creator possess that leads us to classifying them as male, since male dominance is something that is simply ingrained into vernacular English.

 

Also, I think (though I could very well be wrong) that the Creator and the DO have both existed for eternity. However, the Creator imprisoned the DO "at the moment of creation." There are interesting implications in this imprisonment, but I won't go into it because it would be straying off-topic. However, because they have both existed since before anything was created, you would assume that gender would be superfluous. No need to reproduce (an eternal entity, having no concept, and thus no fear, of death, would have no need to pass on its seed), no need to have a gender.

[arthurvyrin]

u know the DO and the creater could be male and female............... 1 had PMS and imprisoned the other

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

However, because they have both existed since before anything was created, you would assume that gender would be superfluous. No need to reproduce (an eternal entity, having no concept, and thus no fear, of death, would have no need to pass on its seed), no need to have a gender.

 

Makes sense

 

 

I don't believe a gender is ever applied to him. Because he is a generally dark, mysterious, and evil entity, we attribute the male gender to him. He has no gender, but his traits, if they must be classified as either gender, are almost inarguably masculine. I believe it might simply be the power that both the DO and the Creator possess that leads us to classifying them as male, since male dominance is something that is simply ingrained into vernacular English.

 

Doesn't make as much sense

 

Wow, what an assumption! If it's powerful, dark, and evil, it's male? Nope. And I don't think male dominance is "ingrained into vernacular English." Oh, and I don't see how evilness is a masculine trait. There has to be a better reason.

 

I'll look back into the books to see whether the Forsaken think of the DO with a gender. I do agree, though, that it would be pointless for the DO or Creator to even have a gender.

[Seriodor]

Nope, they're forces of nature, might as well give the wind a gender.

[DubbleChrisP]

Doesn't make as much sense

 

Wow, what an assumption! If it's powerful, dark, and evil, it's male? Nope. And I don't think male dominance is "ingrained into vernacular English." Oh, and I don't see how evilness is a masculine trait. There has to be a better reason.

 

I'll look back into the books to see whether the Forsaken think of the DO with a gender. I do agree, though, that it would be pointless for the DO or Creator to even have a gender.

 

I don't mean to say that that makes him male. I'm just saying that when you think "evil" the gender you attribute to it is generally going to be male. And not necessarily evil. Actually, I believe it is mainly the vast power that makes us think male. The same reason why we think of God as being male. Omniscient, omnipotent? Much more masculine traits than feminine, however you look at it. I'm not trying to be sexist, that's just the way the modern mind has been conditioned to think.

[Seriodor]

I'm pretty sure the Forsaken refer to him as a he.

I don't believe a gender is ever applied to him. Because he is a generally dark, mysterious, and evil entity, we attribute the male gender to him. He has no gender, but his traits, if they must be classified as either gender, are almost inarguably masculine. I believe it might simply be the power that both the DO and the Creator possess that leads us to classifying them as male, since male dominance is something that is simply ingrained into vernacular English.

 

Doesn't make as much sense

 

Wow, what an assumption! If it's powerful, dark, and evil, it's male? Nope. And I don't think male dominance is "ingrained into vernacular English." Oh, and I don't see how evilness is a masculine trait. There has to be a better reason.

 

I'll look back into the books to see whether the Forsaken think of the DO with a gender. I do agree, though, that it would be pointless for the DO or Creator to even have a gender.

Also, be honest with yourself, when you think "THE DARK ONE" your subconsciously categorizing him as a male.

[arthurvyrin]

i know i think of the DO as male

 

 

but i do think of the creater as female

[Pin This]

something that has been said contless times in the book (i.e. Rand, and Min) is that for every good thing there is a bad... so i think that the dark one is just there to keep the balance.. which means hes been there as long as the creator ... which means they have no gender...

 

though to argue my own points why thn can the DO talk to his followers and the crators cant talk to his? that implies they arnt the same entity.

[Darkness Incarnated]

How do the Chosen and Darkfriends refer to the Dark One? The Great LORD [of the Dark]. It seems there's no doubt in their minds about [his] presumed gender. Kinda strange, considering Randland society is dominated by women. Is this in line with males being seen as evil? (the taint), thus the Dark One is male because he's so evil  :D or they refered to the DO as male even before the tainting?

Arthurvyrin, would you care to expand as to why you think the Creator is female and the DO male? And not, say, the reverse? Or neither of the two? Or both female and male? They are all possibilities, if you ask me. And if one is this and the other is that, it could be ultimately perceived as fostering the rivalities between women and men, but that's just me attempting to sound like a philosoph. The voice Rand hears towards the end of TEoW is thought to be the Creator. I don't know whether it was female or male but for some reason I think Rand would have noticed it if it was female, if only because he's male.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Dark One has no gender.  The choice of "he" is simply one of convenience ... it would be awfully cumbersome to say "he/she/it" every time you referred to the Dark One.

 

Shai'tan is not human.  Both "he" and the Creator are genderless.

 

Though neither male nor female by known standards, Shai'tan is usually referred to as male.  He has no true physical form ...

 

BWB, p 48

 

The Creator's Power (the One Power, derived from the True Source) is divided into genders not because the Creator has a gender, but because that Power was designed to:

 

1) Provide the "energy" to turn the Wheel by working with and against each other in opposite ways, and

 

2) Be available to certain humans with or without his direct approval, for use according to their free will and nature.

 

The Dark One's Power (the True Power, derived directly from "him") is not divided into genders because:

 

1) It is not driving anything, and

 

2) It is only made available directly from the Dark One, according to "his" will and nature.

[Luckers]

How do the Chosen and Darkfriends refer to the Dark One? The Great LORD [of the Dark]. It seems there's no doubt in their minds about [his] presumed gender. Kinda strange, considering Randland society is dominated by women. Is this in line with males being seen as evil? (the taint), thus the Dark One is male because he's so evil  or they refered to the DO as male even before the tainting?

 

The use of the male refrence to the Dark One appeared before the tainting, and therefore before the squewed gender balance established by the lack of the male social equivalent to the Aes Sedai (and the demonisation of men because of such).

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Thanks everyone, that's much more cleared up now.

 

I'm still wondering about the True Power though. So if this power is not male or female, the DO could let Graendal use it too? And can all of the others see Moridin's weaves? Does it even work that way?

[drovja]

Thanks everyone, that's much more cleared up now.

 

I'm still wondering about the True Power though. So if this power is not male or female, the DO could let Graendal use it too? And can all of the others see Moridin's weaves? Does it even work that way?

 

At the moment, only Moridin as Nae'blis is permitted to use the TP.  However, before he was given exclusive access, all of the Forsaken could use it.  The only person that can see the weaves made from the TP is the one creating those weaves, so noone else can see what Moridin weaves..... only the effects.

[Luckers]

Indeed. During the course of the war of the shadow, 39 people were given access to the True Power.

[Seriodor]

Where'd you get that from Luckers?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

This is ridiculous. I can't believe these type of questions are not getting answered quickly. They shouldn't be turning into debates, because the answers are rather straighforward.

 

All of you seem ready to debate whether the DO is male or female...

 

Well here is the answer: NEITHER

 

The Dark One is an unmanifest entity. He doesn't have a physical form, and therefore cannot have genitals, cannot be a man/woman.

 

The same with the Creator: no physical form, no genitals, cannot be man/woman.

 

That said, the Chosen refer to the Dark One as the Great Lord because he carries many masculine (or what are perceived as masculine) characteristics, and the same could be said of the Creator, though it would be erroneous to call either a "man" or "woman."

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that if the DO and the Creator are opposites, they must be opposite in every way, when as a point of fact, you can't ascribe gender to entities that existed, unmanifest, before gender itself existed.

 

This, of course, would be false if the Creator is really some old man with a beard and the DO is his elderly female companion, and they are engaged in a heated chess match that they keep starting over because they can't remember who made the last move.

 

See how ridiculous that is?

 

EDIT: RAW and Luckers got to it first, d*mn it! Somehow I didn't notice there was a second page.

[Jasin Natael]

I Think that the DO is male because Ishamael acted as the DO and he didnt hide the fact that he was male  ???

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Acted like the DO, with acted being the operative word.

 

He was not the DO, in truth.

 

Ishamael: So, Great One, I am going to protend to be you, but I need to ask a question first.

 

Dark One: Shoot.

 

Ishamael: Um...Are you male or female?

 

Dark One: I have no genitals.

 

Ishamael: ...So, are you male or female?

[GrandpaG]

Who created the Creator?  ::)

 

Was that a he?  Or a she?

 

Did he/she create the Creator and the Dark One at the same instant?

 

Or, did the Creator get bored with everything being too "good" all the time so he/she created a "bad" playmate to play the Fisher game with him?

 

Did the Dark One and the Creator combine efforts to create the Dragon (Fisher)?

 

Did they also create the bad guy who keeps getting reborn along with the dragon (Ishy/Moridin/whatever he was called the other 102,347 times so far)?

 

Why is there air? (Bill Cosby 1969?) ;D

[arthurvyrin]

ok im just saying that i see the creater as female becouse she created nature i dont see a man creating nature do u?

 

and the DO he is makeing war on the world, i just see man when u say WAR. im i right?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Maybe I need to spell this out clearer:

 

No vagina = NOT FEMALE

No uterus = NOT FEMALE

No cervix = NOT FEMALE

No Fallopian tubes = NOT FEMALE

 

Also, I actually said "RAW." That stands for Robert Alex Willis, one of the people who have posted on this page.

 

 

[dmanmiller34]

wether the DO has genitailia or not I see the Dark one as a male. At least Male shaped. There is just something more intense I belive of a Man with fire coming out of his face than that of a woman.