episode 31 discussion and questions

[braborius]

a few questions and theories to episode 31

 

1  If Verin is going to get the horn for the last battle to give to Mat, then must be like in book 2 when they fight against the seanchan be their the hornblower the flagbearer and the dragon reborn and will it have the same weakness that the battle is linked with the battle with Rand against someone.

 

2  In book 11 the ogier go to the stump. Loal talks there to not open the book. Now my question to what world will they travel and how could they do it because they can't use the one power.

 

3  If Rand hears the voice of the the dragon before him. Then did Lews Therin head the voice of the dragon before him.

 

4  What did Herid Fel had to say to Rand before he died and is that one of the reasons Min is reading those books

 

 

sorry for the bad language

   

[Child of Lir]

Hello braborious

 

1. I'm not too sure what you're asking here, but think you're asking if Rand and Perrin need to be with Mat when he blows the Horn? There is nothing to indicate that they need to be together - the Horn is only linked to the Hornsounder. By "the weakness" do you mean that the Horn can only be blown when Rand is in battle with someone else? Again, the answer is no - the Horn is sounded in time of great need and the heroes answer the call. There is nothing to link it with the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine asks Vandene this question and she confirms that they only link between the Horn and the Dragon is Tarmon Gai'don.

 

2. The Book of Translation is some device (whether literally a book or not is as yet unknown) that allows the Ogier to leave "this" world and enter another. As they cannot channel, then the Power is probably not required to operate the device, although it may well have been made with the Power. The world to which they will journey must be one of the Mirrors of the Wheel worlds, and it is generally understood that the Book of Translation is in some way akin to the Portal Stones; possibly it translates the Portal Stone writing to enable the Ogier to leave for another world - that was my instinct on first reading.

 

3. Not that we know of. Rand is the one destined to fight the final battle with the Dark One so his case is different to that of LTT.

 

4. The general concensus is that Herid Fel gave Rand the information / ideas he needed to cleanse "saidin" and told him that he needed to break the Seals, probably in order to re-seal the DO.

 

Hope that helps!

[Majsju]

That Rand has LTT in his head is most likely a result of the taint, the barrier between incarnations are breaking down. LTT was not a loony long enough for this to happen.

[Cybertrolloc]

That Rand has LTT in his head is most likely a result of the taint, the barrier between incarnations are breaking down. LTT was not a loony long enough for this to happen.

Or has something to do with where and how LTT died (eek, don't read too much into that word choice) and where Rand was born ;)

 

If we can believe Semi, voices in the head aren't unknown in the Age of Power--before there was a taint.

[Majsju]

That Rand has LTT in his head is most likely a result of the taint, the barrier between incarnations are breaking down. LTT was not a loony long enough for this to happen.

Or has something to do with where and how LTT died (eek, don't read too much into that word choice) and where Rand was born ;)

 

If we can believe Semi, voices in the head aren't unknown in the Age of Power--before there was a taint.

 

Well, LTT in Rands head is a wee bit more than just a voice...

[Charlz Guybon]

a few questions and theories to episode 31

 

1  If Verin is going to get the horn for the last battle to give to Mat, then must be like in book 2 when they fight against the seanchan be their the hornblower the flagbearer and the dragon reborn and will it have the same weakness that the battle is linked with the battle with Rand against someone.

 

 

Hawking says they must follow the Dragon and his banner. I hope they don't have to be present the next time Mat blows the horn,  but they very well might have to be.

[Majsju]

a few questions and theories to episode 31

 

1  If Verin is going to get the horn for the last battle to give to Mat, then must be like in book 2 when they fight against the seanchan be their the hornblower the flagbearer and the dragon reborn and will it have the same weakness that the battle is linked with the battle with Rand against someone.

 

 

Hawking says they must follow the Dragon and his banner. I hope they don't have to be present the next time Mat blows the horn,  but they very well might have to be.

 

Falme is a special occasion. Next time, Mat can poof his bong, sorry, horn, wherever he wants.

[Charlz Guybon]

a few questions and theories to episode 31

 

1  If Verin is going to get the horn for the last battle to give to Mat, then must be like in book 2 when they fight against the seanchan be their the hornblower the flagbearer and the dragon reborn and will it have the same weakness that the battle is linked with the battle with Rand against someone.

 

 

Hawking says they must follow the Dragon and his banner. I hope they don't have to be present the next time Mat blows the horn,  but they very well might have to be.

 

Falme is a special occasion. Next time, Mat can poof his bong, sorry, horn, wherever he wants.

I hope so, but do we have evidence for this?

[oosquaiaddict]

I agree with the Captain General... We havent seen anything to suggest that the heroes would attack without the Dragon Banner to follow. Based on what I remember, Perrin might not be needed if another Bannerman can be found, but Rand and Mat both need to be there. Or at least the Dragon Banner, cause the heroes follow the banner. That might even be the reason why the horn and the banner were placed together in the pool of saidin at the eye of the world.

 

Heres the quote:

 

His warhorse pranced, and he looked around frowning. "Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turns his sharp eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?"

 

....

 

A paragraph where Rand says yes

....

"You are here. The banner is here. The weave of the moment is set. We have come to the horn, but we must follow the Banner. And the Dragon."

[Majsju]

Keyphrase

 

The weave of the moment is set.

 

Special occasion. Just as the Wheel displaying Rands fight with Ishy all over the place.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its even more specific than Maj quoted it.  Hawkwing says "The weave of this moment is set."  (TGH ch 47, emphasis added)  Meaning that the requirement of the Banner was a requirement of that specific instance.

 

Hawkwing was all ready to go, before he asked about the Banner.  He said, "We will drive these invaders out for you."  (same reference)  But when he tried to start, something held him.  Thats because the weave of this moment was for the Dragon to proclaim himself to the world.  The upcoming fight with Ba'alzamon would be seen in the sky, and the other False Dragons would fall.  So, the Banner was a requirement of that moment.

 

The presence of the Banner cannot be a permanent requirement, because the Horn was made before the Age of Legends, and there was no Dragon Banner before Lews Therin.

[oosquaiaddict]

Not to be facetious, but doesnt the interpretation depend on where you put the emphasis? If you emphasize "We have come to the horn, but we must follow the Banner. And the Dragon" its a diff meaning.

 

And do we know for sure that there wasnt a Dragon Banner before Lews Therin? Its pretty uch indestructible, and weve only seen it being packed away inthe AOL, not how it was created or discovered? Im trying to understand what makes it so definitive that the banner doesnt need to be there.

 

The reason why I would place more importance on the heroes following Rand over the statement that the "weave of this moment" is set, is because Mat blew the Horn. Why would they follow Rand, indeed insist on following him, unless that was part of the Horns power or purpose?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The reason why I would place more importance on the heroes following Rand over the statement that the "weave of this moment" is set, is because Mat blew the Horn. Why would they follow Rand, indeed insist on following him, unless that was part of the Horns power or purpose?

 

Thats a good question, and I think the answer has to do with the nature of the Horn's relationship to the Pattern, and what the Pattern does with the Heroes.

 

Its important to remember that the Heroes are tied to the Pattern, not the Horn.  The Horn is a construct that taps into that phenomenon, but there must be parts of the Pattern where the Horn doesn't exist (someone had to make, and before they made it, it wasn't there).  But, the Heroes are always the Pattern's self-correcting device.  Souls that have been proven reliable for whatever purpose the Pattern needs them for.

 

For that reason, even when they are called by the Horn, the overriding controller of the situation is the Pattern.  By that I mean, the Pattern determines when and where the Horn will be used, unless the Shadow takes it, of course.  In this case, the Pattern used Rand and Mat and Perrin's ta'veren-ness to put them in a situation where the Horn would be used for a purpose: to force Rand to proclaim himself publicly, and not just at Falme.

 

Through that entire set of events, Rand (and the others) seem to be pulled one way, then the other.  First five ride forth, then Rand sees Egwene, but then they have to leave, and then feel compelled to go back.  The whole scene was carefully orchestrated by the Pattern's "fuzzy logic", to force the Seanchan to delay and then go south, to force Rand to proclaim himself, everything came together just right.  The Horn, in this situation, is just a tool of the Pattern.

 

Like any tool, it can be corrupted, which is why the danger of having the Shadow blow the Horn first was so real.  But in what actually transpired, the Pattern came together exactly as it "wanted" to.  So, in that situation, the Heroes did have to follow the Banner, and the Dragon.  The Pattern arranged for a Hornsounder who would be cool with that.  And the weave of that moment was set.

[Nelal Hurcran]

If we follow that chain of logic, then Mat and Perrin might have been heroes bound to the Pattern before. It just wasn't nessisary for them to be recognized, or pointed out at that point. The need for the Dragon Reborn to proclaim himself was so great that any recognition of Perrin or Mat was lost to the other heroes. Those two were just needed for that job right then.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't personally think that's likely, but I can't say its impossible.