The Mysteries of Cyndane

[inkubate]

i thin it would be easier to just label them like we find in the books...a.k.a.,

 

 

Rand: Very strong

 

Moridin: incredibly strong

 

Suian (after un-stilling): Weak

 

and so on...

[Gentled Ben]

Who says it's a percentage, anyway? What's to say that it isn't a set amount, in which case it would be a different percentage for each channeler? What if it simply costs 10 points to be Healed from stilling by the same sex? Is there an interview or something where RJ says it's a percentage?

[inkubate]

lol

 

Solider, "Please Aes Sedai, im injured, i'll die if you don't help me..."

 

Aes Sedai, "Sorry, all out of MP for today..."

 

lol, (it's not exactly what you meant but its what i thought of it...

[Majsju]

Who says it's a percentage, anyway? What's to say that it isn't a set amount, in which case it would be a different percentage for each channeler? What if it simply costs 10 points to be Healed from stilling by the same sex? Is there an interview or something where RJ says it's a percentage?

 

Percentage is the logical choice. And since RJ does not have any powerpoint table such as the one Luckers made up, what would he deduct said points from?

 

Losing points rather than percentage seems a lot more like a videogame than literature to me...

[Littel me]

IIRC I seem to have read that RJ has said that the streng in the OP follow af bell-curve and that he has a 21 step skale, not with number and so on, but to keep trak which AS must defer to which.

 

this combined with what the books has to say abuut the indvidul strengs of the diffrent channeler gives Luckers a prety good foundation for his teory reguarding the relativ streng betwen the channeler.

 

This said I'm personly not sure Cyndane was servert, but Luckers teory is close to have me convienct.         

[Gentled Ben]

RJ has said that he has a strength chart for the Aes Sedai, and I doubt if it's just in percentages. Why would percentages be the logical choice? Why wouldn't it make just as much sense for it to be a consistent cost? Why must it be a tax rate rather than a flat fee?

[Majsju]

RJ has said that he has a strength chart for the Aes Sedai, and I doubt if it's just in percentages. Why would percentages be the logical choice? Why wouldn't it make just as much sense for it to be a consistent cost? Why must it be a tax rate rather than a flat fee?

 

What RJ said:

 

For sheep the evicted, who has heard that I assigned various numerical strengths in the One Power to Rand, Ishamael and others based on a scale of 100 points, no I did not. I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth.

 

Quite different from Luckers homegrown little chart.

[Okvoz al-Vrag]

Felicitations.

 

Is is possible that the power differential that Graendal notices is somehow because Cydane didn't reincarnate with the angeal that she was weilding when she and Moiraine fell through the doorway ter-angreal.  It seems well within what we know of Lanfear's personality to have made sure that the other female Forsaken were aware that SHE could handle the more Power than they, even if she had to cheat to make her point. Moghedian being less powerful than Grendahl to begin with, she could have been beneath G.'s notice; besides G. wasn't trying to puzzle out M.'s identity.

 

Another theory for power differential:  an effect of the cour'souvra.  We know that only a channeler can be bound by one, so could it be a ter-angreal that somehow draws on the power of the person bound, thus appearing to diminish the total Power they can handle?

 

Just some random ideas.

[Thorum]

About the Healing of Cyndane: why was it done by a woman? The DO could just as easily have used a male channeler (Taim f.e.), so Cyndane would be just as strong as Lanfear. Why hasn't he?

[Mr Ares]

About the Healing of Cyndane: why was it done by a woman? The DO could just as easily have used a male channeler (Taim f.e.), so Cyndane would be just as strong as Lanfear. Why hasn't he?

Did the men know at the time? Did Shai'tan know the men knew? If he didn't, then a woman would be the only choice. Also, did he know of the limitations of same gender Healing? If it wasn't known that the other gender would completely Heal the other party, would he still use a man?

 

Felicitations.

 

Is is possible that the power differential that Graendal notices is somehow because Cydane didn't reincarnate with the angeal that she was weilding when she and Moiraine fell through the doorway ter-angreal.  It seems well within what we know of Lanfear's personality to have made sure that the other female Forsaken were aware that SHE could handle the more Power than they, even if she had to cheat to make her point. Moghedian being less powerful than Grendahl to begin with, she could have been beneath G.'s notice; besides G. wasn't trying to puzzle out M.'s identity.

If Lanfear had an angreal, but wasn't using it, the other female Chosen could see her strength in the Power. Therefore, unless she was always drawing her strength from an angreal (which she wasn't as she just picked one up) when in the presence on one of the other women, they would know her true strength.

 

Another theory for power differential:  an effect of the cour'souvra.  We know that only a channeler can be bound by one, so could it be a ter-angreal that somehow draws on the power of the person bound, thus appearing to diminish the total Power they can handle?

 

Just some random ideas.

Such an effect has not been noted in Moghedien, either by her in POV, or by others observing her. Therefore, the obvious inference is that it hasn't happenend, and that Cyndane is weaker. She (Lanfear) also dates her strength loss to when she was held by the Finn, and makes no mention of angreal then either, other than the one Alivia is using.

 

RJ has said that he has a strength chart for the Aes Sedai, and I doubt if it's just in percentages. Why would percentages be the logical choice? Why wouldn't it make just as much sense for it to be a consistent cost? Why must it be a tax rate rather than a flat fee?

What RJ said:

For sheep the evicted, who has heard that I assigned various numerical strengths in the One Power to Rand, Ishamael and others based on a scale of 100 points, no I did not. I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth.

Quite different from Luckers homegrown little chart.

So you can invent some numbers to make a point but Luckers can't? And how does that answer the question? Why is a percentage loss more logical. Prove it - show your working. How does that quote rule out the loss of a set amount, rather than a percentage?

[Thorum]

About the Healing of Cyndane: why was it done by a woman? The DO could just as easily have used a male channeler (Taim f.e.), so Cyndane would be just as strong as Lanfear. Why hasn't he?

Did the men know at the time? Did Shai'tan know the men knew? If he didn't, then a woman would be the only choice. Also, did he know of the limitations of same gender Healing? If it wasn't known that the other gender would completely Heal the other party, would he still use a man?

 

The DO would know the other gender has to Heal, and how. He could learn Moridin via the True Power.

The Wheel of Time turns, ... and when the age that gave it birth returns, ...

It is known by the end of the series, so the DO knows it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The DO would know the other gender has to Heal, and how. He could learn Moridin via the True Power.

 

Um ... why?  He's not omniscient.

 

The Shadow learned of the weave for a woman to Heal a man or a woman because Moghedien was in Salidar when Nynaeve did it.  As was Delana.

 

Damer Flinn developed his method later, in a very different place, under very differnt circumstances.  The Shadow may know about it by the end of KoD, but I doubt they knew it when Cyndane was transmigrated.

 

As for teaching Moridin through the True Power ... the True Power and the One Power can do different things, especially in the realm of Healing (see the Prologue of TEoTW).  Its not even certain that the True Power can Heal someone's ability to channel.

[Thorum]

The Shadow may know about it by the end of KoD, but I doubt they knew it when Cyndane was transmigrated.

 

The Wheel of Time is round, and the Dark One lives outside of it. So, if he knew by the end of KoD (and I'ld be surprised if he didn't), he knew at the start of EotW.

 

As for teaching Moridin through the True Power ... the True Power and the One Power can do different things, especially in the realm of Healing (see the Prologue of TEoTW).  Its not even certain that the True Power can Heal someone's ability to channel.

 

Indeed.

Question: Can the DO teach someone a new weave of Saidin?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Wheel of Time is round, and the Dark One lives outside of it. So, if he knew by the end of KoD (and I'ld be surprised if he didn't), he knew at the start of EotW.

 

While that may seem like a good point at first, if it actually worked that way, then the Dark One could just tell his servants everything the good guys were going to do before they did it, and the Shadow would win easily.

 

Obviously, then, there are problems with that.  Moridin thinks of Healing someone who was severed as "another impossibility" offered up by these primitives.  So, obviously he didn't know about it until Nynaeve did it.  So, just as obviously, the Dark One didn't tell him about it.  Either there are limits on the Dark One's ability to communicate, or he's keeping secrets for fun.  Either way, the Dark One isn't telling his servants what happened "last time around".

 

Question: Can the DO teach someone a new weave of Saidin?

 

In my opinion, no.  The Dark One can't do anything with the One Power.

[Thorum]

The Wheel of Time is round, and the Dark One lives outside of it. So, if he knew by the end of KoD (and I'ld be surprised if he didn't), he knew at the start of EotW.

 

While that may seem like a good point at first, if it actually worked that way, then the Dark One could just tell his servants everything the good guys were going to do before they did it, and the Shadow would win easily.

 

No, because every turn of the Wheel is just that tiny little bit different.

 

Obviously, then, there are problems with that.  Moridin thinks of Healing someone who was severed as "another impossibility" offered up by these primitives.  So, obviously he didn't know about it until Nynaeve did it.  So, just as obviously, the Dark One didn't tell him about it.  Either there are limits on the Dark One's ability to communicate, or he's keeping secrets for fun.  Either way, the Dark One isn't telling his servants what happened "last time around".

 

Question: Can the DO teach someone a new weave of Saidin?

 

In my opinion, no.  The Dark One can't do anything with the One Power.

 

Moridin is a man from the Age of Legends, when stilling/severing was unhealable. This is probably an example of the DO's incompetence with the OP. I don't think the DO's keeping much secrets for his Naeblis, who hasn't betrayed him for over 3000 years without real supervision. I know I would.

[Mr Ares]

The Shadow may know about it by the end of KoD, but I doubt they knew it when Cyndane was transmigrated.

 

The Wheel of Time is round, and the Dark One lives outside of it. So, if he knew by the end of KoD (and I'd be surprised if he didn't), he knew at the start of EotW.

Assuming that it was known at the end of the previous Third Age, and that Shai'tan knew how to do it and the limitations of doing it. If He only knew of it, that wouldn't help a huge deal, and if He didn't know one must Heal cross-gender for complete success, then He would simply get the first person He knew of that could do it to do it.

 

The DO would know the other gender has to Heal, and how. He could learn Moridin via the True Power.

As for teaching Moridin through the True Power ... the True Power and the One Power can do different things, especially in the realm of Healing (see the Prologue of TEoTW).  Its not even certain that the True Power can Heal someone's ability to channel.

And even if it can, there may be unintended and unfortunate side effects.

 

Every turn of the Wheel is just that tiny little bit different.

Different enough that maybe severing wasn't Healable last time, or only by women (the men never worked out a method)? Or just different enough that the results of same gender Healing were never discovered, or never revealed to Shai'tan?

[Darkness Incarnated]

To everyone who doesn't believe Luckers' theory--that Siuan and Leane lost less than half their strength--, how much do you think they lost? Half? More? If that's the case for BOTH of them, then it should apply to all channelers healed by the same sex, don't you think? This is where the mechanism in my brain gets stuck. Cyndane should fall under that situation; but it doesn't add up because I can't see how she would lose half or more of her strength and still be stronger than Graendal.

The only other options I see are:

-the loss is particular to each channeler, depending on x,y, and z criteria that apply only to said channeler (I've no idea what).

-Lanfear wasn't stilled, it's just that Cyndane's body can't handle as much Power--which begs the question of whether that is possible; Moridin & Co. seem to say otherwise. [On that note, while channeling is mainly a function of the soul, it's not exclusive to it; the body HAS to be able to channel, so I don't think it should be simply ignored. Aran 'ngar--however you spell it--wouldn't be able to channel if his female body couldn't. I guess the question is, what determines the strength of a channeler? The soul, it would seem, by the evidence in the books. Does the body have a say in the matter? I don't know].

- .....

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

The way I see it it is like this.

 

The Soul determines what half of the Power, Siadin or Saidar.  Thus Balthamel, transmigrated into Halima, still channels Saidin.

 

The Body determines how strong you can be.  Suitable strong channelers have been turning up all over the place to allow for Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael to retain strength.  Had Halima been left as herself, she may have well turned out to be another channeller similar to Alivia or Sharina.  Lanfear, being freakishly strong to begin with, got the short end of the stick do to the lack of any channelling freak being available.

 

It isn't a difficult concept to grasp, and it fits with what we are seeing.  Much better than trying to work a severing/healing by woman in.  Which, based on comments to Nynaeve from Siuan and Leane causes you to lose well over 1/2 your ability.

[Gentled Ben]

This is where the mechanism in my brain gets stuck. Cyndane should fall under that situation; but it doesn't add up because I can't see how she would lose half or more of her strength and still be stronger than Graendal.

 

Because you're thinking of it only in terms of percentages. You're operating under the assumption that sintce it is 50% for Siuan and Leane, it is 50% for every channeler, because it simply costs 50% of your strength to be healed by the same sex, when that simply hasn't been proven yet. It may not be the case at all, and a set amount of strength loss for each channeler can easily explain it. Observe: Lanfear is at the top of female strength, so we'll assign her a score of 100. Siuan and Leane are strong, but not nearly as strong as Lanfear, so let's say they are at 40 (yup...just makin' numbers up for an illustration). Perhaps the cost of Healing is actually 20 points of strength. In that case, Cyndane is now at 80, still quite strong and nudging Graendal out at say, 79, having suffered a 20% loss of strength. Does that mean that Healing by the same sex costs the channeler 20% of their former strength? Well, in Lanfear's case, using the example above, it does, but let's explore it further. Let's Heal Siuan and Leane now and deduct that same 20 points from each of them. Now, they are both at 20 points, which is half their strength, so they've lost 50% of their former strength. Does that mean that it costs 50% of a channeler's former strength in order to be Healed by the same sex? Only in Siuan and Leane's case, as cited in the example above. For other channelers, it may be a higher or lower percentage, depending upon their former strength.

 

Now, consider that Luckers is saying that they didn't even lose half of their actual former strength, but rather, he's asserting that the 50% loss is in social standing instead, and you can more readily grasp how Lanfear can lose an amount that would seem to her to be relatively insignificant, and yet be devastating from Siuan and Leane's POV.

[Jeff from MI]

 

 

MR Ares: Proof that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns... (quoted from Luckers post)

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

These are some facts that RJ tells us quite clearly:

1. Lanfear did gain strength while being held by the Finns.

2. Lanfear died and was reborn as Cyndane by the DO and is now weaker.

3. Moraine is being held by the Finns.

 

Majsju:

You wrote:

As for Moiraine getting the same deal, no way. She is not exactly in a position to make a bargain, being prisoner and so, bursting into the finns realm not only breaking the doorway, but also bringing a forsaken into their home. She won't get any bargain.

And even if she for some freak reason would be allowed to make a bargain, I can not see Moiraine from out of nowhere turn so selfish that she asks for something that benefits herself.

 

1. Moraine is in the same position as anyone who enters the realm, except for the fact that she is stuck!  :)  If anything she may be in a better position to make a deal since she was involved in the death of Lanfear and the Finns have expressed a dislike for the shadow.

2.  Moraine knows from her trips through various other ter-angreal some of what she needs to do to win the last battle. (Visiting the snakes, three rings in Ryodian, and her test for accepted)

3.  Moraine will do what is necessary to win the last battle. Period.  Do not confuse any romanticized visions of Moraine with the character RJ has created who will do what ever is necessary.  If that means her becoming stronger, she will do it in a heart beat.

 

Luckers:

Why else would RJ mention that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns, then have Moraine in an IDENTICAL situation?

 

You wrote:

I'm sorry, where did RJ mention this?

 

YOU posted the answer in your initial post. (Thank you by the way for a lively discussion...)

 

From your post...

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

You agree that Cydane is Lanfear.  Lanfear was held by the Finns, and it is mplied by a basic understanding of the english language that she was stronger after having been held by the Finns.  You also agree that Lanfear WAS held by the Finns.  Moraine is now being held by the Finns.  Same situation yes?

 

The Finns do not grant "wishes."  The snakes answer three questions, the foxes give three "gifts."  Lanfear had already been to see them both and was killed when she entered the portal for a second time by going through with Moraine, who had not been to the realm of the foxes yet. (there is a restriction on only seeing them once.)

 

You also agree that channeling is a function of the soul.  So if Lanfear was reborn into a new body, why would she need to be healed by a BA?

 

I think Occam's razor definitly applies here.  The simpilist explination is that Lanfear lost some "gift" of stength that she gained while being held by the finns during the age of legends.  Simple.  The whole theory of having been reborn, stilled, then healed by a BA is, in your own words, "conveluted."

 

One last observation.  Morain had told Lan that she was prepared to pass on his bond to another Aes Sedai, and I believe even joked about passing it BEFORE her death if he did not mind her.  We also know from other scenes that it is possible to pass a bond.  When Moraine channeled before tackeling Lanfear and falling through the stone doorway, I think she was not attacking Lanfear but passing Lan's bond.  Everyone assumes she was doing something to counter Lanfear's channeling but I don't think so.  Then there is no need for Moraine to die because the bond was not "snapped" but "passed" instead.  Lan had never felt either so I doubt he would be able to tell the difference.

[Vambram]

Maybe we are not reading or understanding English the same way, but I shall attempt to clearly explain what I think this quote means and implies.

Alivia was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

I believe that sentence very clearly implies that Lanfear/Cyndane was stronger in the One Power before the time when she was in the 'Finn realm. In other words, something happened after Moiraine's actions forcing Lanfear to stay in the 'Finn realm which somehow caused Lanfear to lose her awesome strength in the One Power. As has been discussed previously by others, it appears that AFTER Lanfear became Cyndane that something happened or someone caused for Cyndane's strength in the one power to be less than what she had as Lanfear had at the time before she was trapped in the 'Finn realm.  :) 8) :) 8)

[Gentled Ben]

These are some facts that RJ tells us quite clearly:

1. Lanfear did gain strength while being held by the Finns.

2. Lanfear died and was reborn as Cyndane by the DO and is now weaker.

3. Moraine is being held by the Finns.

 

Of these three, RJ only clearly tells us the third. He does not tell us the first and indeed, as Vambram pointed out, he tells us quite the opposite, and while the second is adequately shown to be true, he does not come out and clearly state it.

 

1. Moraine is in the same position as anyone who enters the realm, except for the fact that she is stuck!

She is stuck because she destroyed the doorway upon entry. That places her in a unique position, and one that is not enviable, as it all-but-certainly gains her the enmity of the Finns, not their friendship.

 

2.  Moraine knows from her trips through various other ter-angreal some of what she needs to do to win the last battle. (Visiting the snakes, three rings in Ryodian, and her test for accepted)

 

We do not know what questions she asked of the snakes, however, we do know that she knows little of what may transpire after the docks at Cairhien, so it's unlikely that the ter'angreal in Rhuidean revealed anything of the Last Battle to her, and we have no information at all concerning her test for Accepted, only her test for the shawl, which revealed nothing of Tarmon Gaidon.

 

You also agree that Lanfear WAS held by the Finns.  Moraine is now being held by the Finns.  Same situation yes?

Yes. Moiraine can no longer channel at all, same as Lanfear after she was held by the Finns.

 

Lanfear had already been to see them both and was killed when she entered the portal for a second time by going through with Moraine, who had not been to the realm of the foxes yet. (there is a restriction on only seeing them once.)

 

I beg your pardon, but where does it say in the books that Lanfear had even seen one of them even one time before? There is nothing at all to indicate that she has ever been to Finnland before; you read too much into her knowing of them.

 

Then there is no need for Moraine to die because the bond was not "snapped" but "passed" instead.  Lan had never felt either so I doubt he would be able to tell the difference.

 

The weave that passed the bond was already done, Jeff, that's how she was able to "joke" about handing him over to Myrelle ahead of time. Lan can tell the difference, because the whole point of passing a warder bond is to spare the warder from the madness induced by the death of his Aes Sedai. Lan certainly felt that; he was simply proscribed from acting on it suicidally because he was compelled instead to seek Myrelle out.

[Cybertrolloc]

To everyone who doesn't believe Luckers' theory--that Siuan and Leane lost less than half their strength--, how much do you think they lost? Half? More? If that's the case for BOTH of them, then it should apply to all channelers healed by the same sex, don't you think? This is where the mechanism in my brain gets stuck.

I think Luckers has a great point that the loss of status among Aes Sedai weighs heavily on their minds (going from the top to somewhere in the middle). He also has a point that those Aes Sedai in Salidar at that time were stronger than average: or at least the ones in charge were. (Arguably another great point, but don't want his ego swelling too much.)

 

I think that Suian trying to lift Brynn with the power can't be so easily discounted though. She thinks it's something that she could have done easily with the power before, yet can't manage it now. Seems pretty damning, at least so far as lifting stuff with air depends on how much of the power you can draw (which we don't know is the case, but if there's a better example of strength mattering, I can't think of one right now. Conversely, things like bridges don't depend on strength at all for how much they can carry--well infinite according to Rand, but strength and sex seems to be involved at how long they can be). Suian would probably know, but she doesn't get into it (loss of warder sadness).

 

I'd prefer to think that Lanfear was just that much more powerful than the others rather than suppose something like a constant amount of channeling ability can't be restored by same sex. Say someone like Daigian: still her and have a woman heal her--then she wouldn't be able to channel at all? Granted I'd hope RJ would come up with a better model than new power = old power - constant, but we've been disappointed before ;)

[Darkness Incarnated]

Gentled Ben, perhaps you should have quoted my entire post, for the point that comes just after your selection talks about the possibity that what a channeler loses could be determined by things particular to that channeler alone (their strength for instance).

The reason why I assumed a 50% loss--going by the comments in the books, by the way--, and something almost everyone seems to ignore, is this: aren't Siuan and Leane of different strengths? If I remember well, Siuan is stronger. It's understandable for two channelers of the same strength to lose the same amount. However, if two channelers of different strengths lose EACH 50% of their strengths, then there is a possibility it's a set amount for all channelers, i.e. that, if healed by the same sex, they will be only at 50% of their former selves, irrespective of their strength. As in, Siuan at, say 40, falls at 20, while Leane at, say 36, falls to 18. And Lanfear at 100 falls at 50. I personally don't believe it's so, but do you see where I'm going? These numbers are of course flawed, they are only for illustrative purposes. Note that I never said these are hard facts, there's an if somewhere in my post. Alternatively it could be the way you present it. Though I can't help but ask, in your example, what if Graendal was 81? It's possible, she was not THAT weaker than Lanfear. At 79 she'd be almost as strong as Cyndane, and I'm not sure the books agree with you.

Cybertrolloc: Daigian would still be able to channel, but she'd not be accepted as AS (something else Luckers mentioned, their cut-off point, she'd be below it). You have to be of a certain strength to be accepted in the Tower, not just to be able to channel. And I agree, Siuan failing to pick up Gareth bothers me.

 

[LordSaladin]

i think thst when you are cut off from the power you need, someone from the opposite sex to heal you completely, for example:

nynaeve healed logain fully back to his original power/strength, but not suian or leane,

however the bold old ashaman (cant remeber his name), who is good at healing, fully heal the aes sedai that were severed when rand escaped from their box.

 

i think the opposite sid eof the ture source is needed, to fully restore a person who has been severed, when they are being healed, so male heal female and female heal male