Tainting Saidnar

[dmanmiller34]

So if the DO could taint Saidin and the wheel is one eternal round couldn't he decide to Taint Saidnar this time around and completely flip flop the dogma against Male Channelers? any thoughts on this?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Robert Jordan has been asked something like this, to which his reply was "I don't intend to explore that."

 

Go figure. Sure, the DO could. But we won't see it happen.

 

 

[bcxanth]

The DO was only able to taint Saidin because he was able to actually "touch" it because of the fact that it was being used against him in an open bore to where he lives. He currently has no access to either part of the OP, so cannot renew teh taint on saidin nor can he taint saidar.

 

Now, at the time of the last battle, if we opperate under the assumption that Rand is going to break open the remaining seals, then I suppose technically that might leave the door open to the DO managing to taint a part of the OP again.

 

However, we know the catechism. The Wheel turns, ages come again, blah blah. What this means is that between the Last Battle and the return of the AoL the OP has to be completely cleansed (shich it is now), people must lose the ability to use it as they turn to technology, the OP and the DO and all that must be forgotten, then the OP rediscovered with both parts still clean, then the AoL and so on.  Somewhere in there the whole Age of men running with the wolves and such must take place as well.  I think the general beliefe here is that the fading and loss of the OP will happen in the next Age, meaning that there really won't be a point where the DO can taint either half of the Power.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I think the question was not asking whether the DO could taint saidar any time he wanted, or renew the taint on saidin, it was asking whether he could do it in the next "Age of Legends."

 

You know, if the bore was sealed by women channelers, it would be theoretically possible...or if it was sealed by male and females, both could get tainted.

[RobertAlexWillis]

or if it was sealed by male and females, both could get tainted.

 

Which would explain why it is called "Saidnar".

 

Sorry, dmanmiller34.  I don't usually pick on innocent spelling errors (we all make them), but that one struck me as funny.

[Breaker of Light]

i think the only reason that saidar is failing is because reality is falling apart. Why? i have no idea. Maybe the strain of the dark one trying to get free is like totally messing up da wheel and the pattern and stuffs. Or, because the seals are weakening, they're creating ripples in the pattern as they slowly crumble into nothing. I think when Rand breaks the seals, he shoukd drop off of the top of the WT and than gateway way way away. Because the backlash may destroy the WH. Or better yet, drop them in Mazrim Taim palace whil all of the new dreadlords are in there.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Saidar isn't failing.

 

It is more likely that the wards were tampered with.  Other than that, where have we seen Aes Sedai not able to do things they otherwise could?  That I know of, only outside Ebou Dar.  And it didn't fail them there, just felt strange and elusive.  Saidin felt the same way there.  Most likely that was a result of them nearly destroying the Bowl of Winds when they fixed the weather.

[drovja]

Every ward was tampered with?  All of the Keepings on food were tampered with?  I find it hard to believe that we would be shown widespread effects of long term weaves failing and then be told that they were tampered with.  Even the wards keeping critters out of the WT were failing, as we know from an Alviarin POV, where she displays surprise that the Dark Lord's eyes were inside the Tower.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

If saidar is failing, then why is it that only the wards fail? What about everything else? Why are ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal functioning correctly? The taint of saidin made the Ways grow dark, and one would think that saidar failing would make angreal or ter'angreal difficult to use, if not causing unexpected results.

 

No one has had a hard time grasping saidar in any instance, except for around Ebou Dar, and that is easily explained as the result of them nearly overloading the Bowl of Winds when trying to fix the weather. If it were anything else, why wouldn't it be happening in other places, as well.

[Davram]

aye

[drovja]

If saidar is failing, then why is it that only the wards fail? What about everything else? Why are ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal functioning correctly? The taint of saidin made the Ways grow dark, and one would think that saidar failing would make angreal or ter'angreal difficult to use, if not causing unexpected results.

 

The darkening of the Ways took centuries, maybe saidar's failing is only seen slowly.  Weaves that are used and then released would show no discernable decay, even if the decay would eventually tear down everything.

[Davram]

Saidar falling?......mhm.....mh....

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

If saidar is failing, then why is it that only the wards fail? What about everything else? Why are ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal functioning correctly? The taint of saidin made the Ways grow dark, and one would think that saidar failing would make angreal or ter'angreal difficult to use, if not causing unexpected results.

 

The darkening of the Ways took centuries, maybe saidar's failing is only seen slowly.  Weaves that are used and then released would show no discernable decay, even if the decay would eventually tear down everything.

 

The part about the ways is correct. However, my analogy was not comparing the rate of decay. I was simply pointing out that something that affects saidar or saidin themselves will affect constructs of the power.

 

Saidin was tainted, and in that respect, the situation is different. If saidar is failing (which would be a different thing entirely from simply being tainted), then anything which utilized saidar would also fail. The effect of this on angreal and ter'angreal should be noticeable, since they should have the same rate of decay that the wards have. Therefore, people should be able to notice ter'angreal and angreal exhibiting strange behavior.

 

The only difference between wards and angreal is that the ward is actually made of saidar, and the angreal utilizes saidar. But if the ward fails because saidar is failing, the tool should begin to cease working as well.

 

Not to mention that any other weave that channelers were trying to make should fail as well.

 

Which leads me to my next question: IF saidar is failing, why is it failing, and how?

 

I sincerely doubt that the mechanisms of the wheel would choose to remove the ability of women to channel at such an untimely place in history. What is more, when the ability to channel is lost, people stop giving birth to babies who can channel, rather than noticing saidar "failing."

 

It would have to be the result of the Dark One. However, the Dark One's touch certainly isn't as great as it was in the Age of Legends, and even then, he could only affect saidin because the channelers were using it on the bore.

 

Going even further, the One Power is the driving force that turns the Wheel, saidar and saidin working against each other yet together to turn it. If saidar was "failing," or if saidar failed, then the Wheel would break.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

i think the only reason that saidar is failing is because reality is falling apart. Why? i have no idea. Maybe the strain of the dark one trying to get free is like totally messing up da wheel and the pattern and stuffs. Or, because the seals are weakening, they're creating ripples in the pattern as they slowly crumble into nothing. I think when Rand breaks the seals, he shoukd drop off of the top of the WT and than gateway way way away. Because the backlash may destroy the WH. Or better yet, drop them in Mazrim Taim palace whil all of the new dreadlords are in there.

Saidar isn't failing, as has already been pointed out. Rather, it is an effect of Shai'tan getting free. In the past, we saw him attempt to stall the weather, but here he is spoiling food, bypassing the keepings, which have not been seen to be tampered with, despite being checked. We have seen Him corrupt food supplies elsewhere (see Perrin's chapters) and the same applies here. The same is true of the Shadoweyes, they are "bypassing" the wards. Saidar is still as effective as it ever was, but these wards and keepings are not able to stand up to Shai'tan's increasing effect on the Pattern. Or at least, such is my understanding. Now hands up anyone who didn't understand a word of that...

[Fel]

I don't see any contradiction with the supposition that Saidar may be failing.  With wards failing and with actual quotes from characters such as "its almost as if saidar itself was failing", it's definitely at least a possibility.  The counter arguments I've seen were

 

1 - Angreal will fail/channelers would start having issues

2 - Ter'angreal will fail or not work properly

3 - saidar won't just dry up, babies will just stop being born with the channeling gene

 

I won't say these are not possibilities, but we do not have enough info to discount the most obvious theory that saidar is failing (i.e. if it is not failing, RJ at least wants people to think it is with the constant references to the wards, etc)  I will address why I don't agree with any of these arguments

 

 

1 - Angreal will fail/channelers would start having issues

The nature of active channeling and wards which are basically tied off weaves are very different.  The Aes Sedai is a conscious entity in the equation that makes Saidar do what she wants.  A ward is set up once and tied off.  If there is a disturbance/failing in Saidar that is beginning, the wards would be the first indication because they do not have ways to adjust to any changes.  The wards very easily could be canary in the coal mine, signaling danger before it becomes apparent to the channelers. 

2 - T'erangreal will fail

Frankly, we don't know how t'erangreal work and we don't see enough of their use (other than the dream terangreal) to make much judgement.  It's quite possible that half the t'erangreal around have failed, but no one noticed because they are so rarely used in general.

3 - Saidar won't just dry up.

Actually, I think it far more likely that saidar does just dry up.  Like a river that is too shallow for the waterwheels to touch, it will likely recede and the ability to channel will disappear with it.  It's more likely than a massive genetic shift and then back.

 

 

I think of saidar as the aes sedai describe it.  A vast river with the aes sedai the waterwheel.  If that river has some strange eddies in it or if it is starting to drop in its level, then you would start seeing some strange issues with the power, likely starting with the wards and tied off weaves starting to fail.

 

 

[lou]

it is the DO's influence on the world. you see it first with the cuellendar discs which are the seals for his prison.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yes, the Dark One's touch.  No more, no less.  The same as has caused screwy things from the very beginning of the series.

 

3 - Saidar won't just dry up.

Actually, I think it far more likely that saidar does just dry up.  Like a river that is too shallow for the waterwheels to touch, it will likely recede and the ability to channel will disappear with it.  It's more likely than a massive genetic shift and then back.

 

Excuse me?  From the beginning, and with nothing to cotradict it, we have been told that Saidin and Saidar are the power that drives the Wheel of Time.  What you are suggesting would indicate that Time itself is destroyed when the ability to Channel is lost for an Age.  Saidin and Saidar are constant.  They don't receed from touch.  Just the ability to touch them is lost from the population.

 

Edit:  Fixed the italics

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Referring to it as a "massive genetic shift" makes it sound as if it happens instantly. It would be a gradual change.

 

By they way, Cwest, thanks for backing me up.