Do you think one Forsaken will betray the DO?

[inkubate]

Exactly!!

[Majsju]

"He" wants obedience within the hierarchy "he" has set up, because as much as "he" wants Chaos, it is a Chaos directed by the DOs whims.

[inkubate]

but if it is a chaos directed, it is an order...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(P.S. somebody please help me with one issue, the phrase 'Order of Chaos' keeps running through my head like it should have been i book i once read, any ideas?)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

i may have come across as being literal, but the terms Dark and Light can also aply to Good and Evil....

 

but what i mean is that the DO does not have to win 'just once' he has to win and then keep winning, just like the people in Randland do now, LTT and his 100 companions beat the DO, but in the Borderlands, they have to win everyday...it will be much the same if the DO rules, he will have  to keep winning....

 

if i did say it in a very round-about way....

 

If the DO wins once, he can destroy the Wheel, and thus will not need to win again. (Though of course, he would still be in a struggle with the Creator).

 

If the Light wins, it only preserves the Wheel, basically "putting off" the destruction of the Wheel to a later date. This is why I say that the DO only needs to win once.

 

Also, you are right, inkubate, in saying the Creator did not (as far as we know) create the DO, because all indications are that they are equal. But you are wrong in interpreting what BrainFire said as implying that. He thought that you were saying that.

[Mr Ares]

Shai'tan seeks chaos as a means to an end. He will use chaos to destroy order, to destroy reality and the Pattern, and then to impose his own Pattern, his own order, founded on his absolute control of everything, with no freedom, and thus a final and lasting victory over the light, for all time.....In My Ever Wise Opinion

 

i may have come across as being literal, but the terms Dark and Light can also aply to Good and Evil....

 

but what i mean is that the DO does not have to win 'just once' he has to win and then keep winning, just like the people in Randland do now, LTT and his 100 companions beat the DO, but in the Borderlands, they have to win everyday...it will be much the same if the DO rules, he will have  to keep winning....

 

if i did say it in a very round-about way....

When Shai'tan wins the Pattern gets shredded. There will be nothing left except extensions of His will. He will never lose once he has won, and only He can win. All the Light can do is indefinately postpone His victory.

 

Also' date=' regarding Moridin: He's a nihilist, yes, but personally, I think it's because he sees the Wheel as inherently retarding any and all human progress. If everything's destroyed, then free will truly exists. Ultimately, I think he longs for freedom at any price.[/quote']If everything is destroyed, then how can anything be free, as there would be nothing to be free? Also, if he does believe that the Wheel retards any and all progress, then he's wrong, but he's not to know that as he doesn't have access to RJ's comments.

 

(Edited to add the bit about the first bit being my opinion, at the end of the first bit, in order to appease RAW's mighty wrath.)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Shai'tan seeks chaos as a means to an end. He will use chaos to destroy order, to destroy reality and the Pattern, and then to impose his own Pattern, his own order, founded on his absolute control of everything, with no freedom, and thus a final and lasting victory over the light, for all time.

 

Uhm ... thats a bit of an assumption.  I don't think any of us can say for certain just what the Dark One would do with his victory.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Also, you are right, inkubate, in saying the Creator did not (as far as we know) create the DO, because all indications are that they are equal. But you are wrong in interpreting what BrainFire said as implying that. He thought that you were saying that.

 

I disagree and would say the indications are that the Creator is greater than the Dark One.  If their catechism is correct, the Creator bound the Dark One at the moment of Creation.  Unaided, the Creator was able to contain the Dark One yet the Dark One is unable to break free without help of humanity.

[Mr Ares]

Shai'tan seeks chaos as a means to an end. He will use chaos to destroy order, to destroy reality and the Pattern, and then to impose his own Pattern, his own order, founded on his absolute control of everything, with no freedom, and thus a final and lasting victory over the light, for all time.

Uhm ... thats a bit of an assumption.  I don't think any of us can say for certain just what the Dark One would do with his victory.

Of course that's an assumption, and I probably should have noted that that was just my opinion, but I think that it is the most likely course, given what we know of Shai'tan. Do you disagree with any part, or do you just think that I should have added an IMO to the end?

[inkubate]

When Shai'tan wins the Pattern gets shredded. There will be nothing left except extensions of His will. He will never lose once he has won, and only He can win. All the Light can do is indefinately postpone His victory.

 

but if the pattern is gone, and the pattern is basically what 'makes the world go round', what will he have to rule over?

[Thorum]

he'll be able to reshape it to his own image.

 

He's outside of the pattern himself, isn't he?

 

Just a spur of the minute.

[inkubate]

so he'll destroy the pattern, then remake the pattern in his own image, is that what you are saying? That i can understand.

 

 

but then would the Wheel still be intact or will he reshape that to? and if he does destroy it, could the pattern continue to be made unless the DO places himself in the role of the Wheel? Or if he decides that the wheel is to important to destroy, would it weave how he wishes? or Weave as it wishes?

[Thorum]

From http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/:

 

The Creator created the Wheel of Time, which is time itself. The Creator imprisoned the Dark One outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. A bore was made into the Dark One's prison, but it was sealed before he entered the world. It is now held closed by seven seals.

 

So: Creator and Dark One are also outside the Wheel of Time. So the DO can reshape it as well.

[inkubate]

but what about The Wheel?

[Majsju]

but what about The Wheel?

 

What about it?

The DO wants to destroy the Wheel, breaking the eternal cycle and bring forth linear time instead. Only then can he actually start changing the world. Also, keep in mind that the Wheel does have a vague kind of consciousness, and would seek to interrupt the DOs doings. It must be broken.

[inkubate]

yes, but The Wheel is what continually weaves the Pattern, you can't just make one large pattern and never add on to it, the Wheel makes sure that, in essence, time keeps moving forward.

 

So if the DO reshaped the Pattern, and destroyed the wheel, he would have to replace it somehow, either with himself or making a new one that favors him...

 

Or does the Wheel favor whoever is 'in charge'...a.k.a., right now good things happen because, overall, the good guys are in charge, but if the DO was free and rule would the Wheel starting 'working' for him

[RobertAlexWillis]

Of course that's an assumption, and I probably should have noted that that was just my opinion, but I think that it is the most likely course, given what we know of Shai'tan. Do you disagree with any part, or do you just think that I should have added an IMO to the end?

 

Yes, actually, its my opinion that the Dark One does not use chaos as simply a means to an end, but that the tiny bit of order he has espoused is merely a means to an end.  Since both the Creator and the Dark One apparently predate creation (in a sense ... time didn't really exist then), it is reasonable to assume that if the Dark One desired some form of creation, he could have made it.  But, as far as we know, he didn't.

 

The Dark One uses minimal order in his attempts to get free, because while working within the Pattern, he has to.  But if he breaks the Wheel and shreds the Pattern, I think he'll be perfectly happy just wallowing in elemental chaos, where the only functioning will is his own.  That is the only way to be sure that no one does anything you don't want them to: make sure there's no one else around.  Thats how a desire for complete chaos, and being an uber control-freak, can be one and the same: when you are the chaos, and there's no one else around.

[Thorum]

yes, but The Wheel is what continually weaves the Pattern, you can't just make one large pattern and never add on to it, the Wheel makes sure that, in essence, time keeps moving forward.

 

So if the DO reshaped the Pattern, and destroyed the wheel, he would have to replace it somehow, either with himself or making a new one that favors him...

 

Or does the Wheel favor whoever is 'in charge'...a.k.a., right now good things happen because, overall, the good guys are in charge, but if the DO was free and rule would the Wheel starting 'working' for him

 

If the Creator can make a Wheel, why shouldn't the DO be able to do so?

[Darth_Andrea]

The only one I can really see turning on the DO is Lanfear. Part of the reason she turned to the shadow was because she loved the dragon and wanted him all for her self and believed she could find a way to win him with the DO's power. She still believes that in some way. However that same love might also be enought to make her turn on the DO if it might be the only way to keep Rand alive at the end. I'm seeing something like a return of the Jedi moment, Rand dieing the DO thinking he has won and Lanfear stepping up and doing something that would save Rand and allow him to rally enought to deliver a finishing blow.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[Mr Ares]

but what about The Wheel?

What about it?

The DO wants to destroy the Wheel, breaking the eternal cycle and bring forth linear time instead. Only then can he actually start changing the world. Also, keep in mind that the Wheel does have a vague kind of consciousness, and would seek to interrupt the DOs doings. It must be broken.

I disagree. He wants to destroy the Wheel, but I don't believe this will bring forth linear time, it will simply end time. And that could well be enough for Shai'tan.

 

Of course that's an assumption, and I probably should have noted that that was just my opinion, but I think that it is the most likely course, given what we know of Shai'tan. Do you disagree with any part, or do you just think that I should have added an IMO to the end

Yes, actually, its my opinion that the Dark One does not use chaos as simply a means to an end, but that the tiny bit of order he has espoused is merely a means to an end.  Since both the Creator and the Dark One apparently predate creation (in a sense ... time didn't really exist then), it is reasonable to assume that if the Dark One desired some form of creation, he could have made it.  But, as far as we know, he didn't.

 

The Dark One uses minimal order in his attempts to get free, because while working within the Pattern, he has to.  But if he breaks the Wheel and shreds the Pattern, I think he'll be perfectly happy just wallowing in elemental chaos, where the only functioning will is his own.  That is the only way to be sure that no one does anything you don't want them to: make sure there's no one else around.  Thats how a desire for complete chaos, and being an uber control-freak, can be one and the same: when you are the chaos, and there's no one else around.

Some good points there, as usual. I'll try to clarify my position. Shai'tan hasn't created a pattern of his own either because he has no desire to Create, only to control what others have Created, or because he cannot. I think the former is more likely. The Creator has Created something, and put it beyond Shai'tan's reach, and now he wants to get his hands on it. When he does, he will basically remove all the bits he doesn't like, especially things like free will. The result will likely bear very little resemblance to the Pattern as we know it from the books. I agree with you that he will have control by virtue of being the only thing with any will of it's own. So basically, he won't create anything new, only change what has already been created. As for whether he wants total control, or just wants to be the only thing capable of having any effect on the chaos, that seems, to me, to be the root of our difference, and we might as well agree to disagree on that, because we're not that likely to change each others minds a great deal. I think we can certainly agree, though, that whatever He wants will not be a good thing for humanity, and will mean an end to free will. Now, is there anything in that you disagree with? (other than the obvious bit, obviously)

 

The only one I can really see turning on the DO is Lanfear. Part of the reason she turned to the shadow was because she loved the dragon and wanted him all for her self and believed she could find a way to win him with the DO's power. She still believes that in some way. However that same love might also be enought to make her turn on the DO if it might be the only way to keep Rand alive at the end. I'm seeing something like a return of the Jedi moment, Rand dieing the DO thinking he has won and Lanfear stepping up and doing something that would save Rand and allow him to rally enought to deliver a finishing blow.

I don't think she ever loved LTT, I think she loved power. She will only turn on Shai'tan, if that is true, if there is something in it for her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If the Creator can make a Wheel, why shouldn't the DO be able to do so?

 

Um ... because they're different?

 

Shai'tan hasn't created a pattern of his own either because he has no desire to Create, only to control what others have Created, or because he cannot. I think the former is more likely. The Creator has Created something, and put it beyond Shai'tan's reach, and now he wants to get his hands on it. When he does, he will basically remove all the bits he doesn't like, especially things like free will. The result will likely bear very little resemblance to the Pattern as we know it from the books. I agree with you that he will have control by virtue of being the only thing with any will of it's own. So basically, he won't create anything new, only change what has already been created. As for whether he wants total control, or just wants to be the only thing capable of having any effect on the chaos, that seems, to me, to be the root of our difference, and we might as well agree to disagree on that, because we're not that likely to change each others minds a great deal. I think we can certainly agree, though, that whatever He wants will not be a good thing for humanity, and will mean an end to free will. Now, is there anything in tha you disagree with?

 

Well .. yes.  But its the disagreement you pointed out, so we're not going to get anywhere with it.

[Thorum]

If the Creator can make a Wheel, why shouldn't the DO be able to do so?

 

Um ... because they're different?

In my opinion, the Creator and the DO are simply the good and the evil gods. When the 'current' (in lack of a better word) Wheel was forged, it was forged by the Creator, and he was able to lock the DO up in a prison (outside of the Wheel). I've seen no where any indication it couldn't be the other way around in an alternative reality. Maybe it won't be a wheel, but a stick or something, or maybe even nothing at all, but they're not that different.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK, thats your opinion.  I disagree thoroughly.

[Thorum]

You think the Creator is something greater than the DO?

 

Why?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the moment of Creation.

 

The Dark One has been trying to break out and failing, apparently for a long time.

 

Besides, "different" doesn't even have to mean "greater".  I happen to think in this case both apply, but even if they were "equal" it doesn't mean that they can both do all of the exact same things.

[Thorum]

The Dark One has been trying to break out and failing, apparently for a long time.

 

That's because the Creator created everything. If I can change EVERYTHING (including physics), it's not thát hard to keep my arch-enemy in a prison he technically cannot break out (unless helped). Whether that arch-enemy is as powerful as I am, or less, or more.