Do you think one Forsaken will betray the DO?

[Thorum]

Who's still alive?

 

Moridin, and his mindtraps Cyndane and Moggy: not a chance they'll go over. He's the big guy, has true power, has been masquerading as the Dark One for 3000 years. No light.

 

Demandred has gone over to the shadow because he's always second behind LTT. And what is he now? Second behind Moridin. Maybe, but he's not far behind.

 

Graendal is afraid of being caught. She'll do anything not to. Could be.

 

Semirhage: first-class torturer. I don't believe she'll ever 'see the light'

 

Mesaana: no idea. We don't really know much about her, do we?

 

So: Demandred and Graendal could go over.

[lou]

demandred absolutely would betray moridan at first opportunity, but it is not the same as betraying the DO. note that the DO pits his forsaken against each other as much as he pits them against the light.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not to mention that Demandred would never, ever, ever play second fiddle to Rand al'Thor.  He transferred his hatred of Lews Therin intact, right to Rand.

 

Demandred would certainly betray Moridin, at any opportunity that he thought he would either not get caught, or could win.  But he won't ever return to the Light.

[Logain]

Demandred would kill Moridin possibly by luring him near Rand when he was weakened by Ashaman ??? ???

Also he thought he would be named naeblis but wasnt he would be desperate to claim that spot.

[Guest cwestervelt]

While Demandred would willing stab Moridin in the back, I don't see that his ego would allow him to do anything like you suggested.  Getting Rand to kill Moridin for him would be too much like admitting that he needed Lews Therin help.  Getting Moridin to kill Rand for him would be too much like admitting that Lews Therin was too much for him to handle.  Both would seem like he was admitting Lews Therin was better.

[Davram]

That pretty much means this: Demandred is a crazy guy who hates LTT for very odd reasons..

[BrainFireBob]

Not to mention that Demandred would never, ever, ever play second fiddle to Rand al'Thor.  He transferred his hatred of Lews Therin intact, right to Rand.

 

Demandred would certainly betray Moridin, at any opportunity that he thought he would either not get caught, or could win.  But he won't ever return to the Light.

 

That's where I see him betraying the DO- if Rand "fails" so Demandred can one-up him by succeeding and proving he should have been the hero. It's his psychosis.

[inkubate]

Getting Rand to kill Moridin for him would be too much like admitting that he needed Lews Therin help.  Getting Moridin to kill Rand for him would be too much like admitting that Lews Therin was too much for him to handle.  Both would seem like he was admitting Lews Therin was better.

 

but if he gets Moridin to try to attack Rand, and then (before either of them kills each other) he kills one or both of them, he wins....

[Mr Hindley]

Does anyone know what would happen to Moridin's mind-trapped lackeys if he gets toasted before they do? If that sets them free, I could imagine Moghedien swapping sides. Or at least, trying to. I'd imagine convincing Nynaeve could prove quite difficult..!

[Guest cwestervelt]

Would depend on what happens to the Mind Traps.  If they get destroyed in the process of killing Moridin they can kiss there little behinds goodbye.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Graendal is the only one who I see possibly fitting into this category, and the possibility is very, very small.  The Forsaken are all very, very intimidated by the Dark One.

 

And no, Lanfear would not leave the Dark One for Rand.  She always loved power more than Lews Therin.  Her "love" of Lews Therin was her love of controlling him and the power he represented.

 

I would agree about most of them being intimidated, perhaps. But I find it unlikely that Moridin is intimidated in the least.

 

Nor do I think his mind is controlled by the Dark One. I think that he came to the belief, a long time ago, that the mechanisms of the Wheel prevent true progress. I think he realized that the Light will never be able to win completely (to get rid of the DO), but that all the DO has to do is win once. And with the infinite amount of time of a Wheel, he is bound to do it eventually.

 

However, I definitely agree that Ishy is not going to betray the DO. If anything, he is the most unlikely candidate.

[inkubate]

I think he realized that the Light will never be able to win completely (to get rid of the DO), but that all the DO has to do is win once. And with the infinite amount of time of a Wheel, he is bound to do it eventually.

 

 

well...that cant be true, if the darkness wins TG, and destroys all light, then it in essence destroys itself, so the mist it can hope for is that the tables turn, and instead of it being mostly good/less bad, it's mostly bad/a lot less good...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

What? I couldn't quite understand what you just said.

 

Anyways, Moridin's goals are the same as the Dark One's. He wants to break the Wheel, to destroy creation, even if it means killing himself.

[inkubate]

in a nut shell,

 

for light to exist there has to be darkness, because if there was no darkness, how would we know we are in the light? the same is reversed, for there to be Darkness, there has to be light, or else how can you know what darkness is?

 

basically, The Darkness cant snuff out all the light, and as long as there is some light left in the world, even just a little, then there is a hope of the light over throwing the darkness...

 

better? sorry i didnt explain it a bit more in the other post...

[BrainFireBob]

Inkubate:

 

You're being too literal. "Dark" and "Light" are allegorical labels in this instance, not actual. The Dark One isn't necessarily required by creation- although the chaos he introduces could be part of a really, really good design by the Creator.

 

The Dark One doesn't source darkness, nor the Light (Creator) light. Since they were seen as opposites, they were given opposite labels, not the other way around.

 

Also, regarding Moridin: He's a nihilist, yes, but personally, I think it's because he sees the Wheel as inherently retarding any and all human progress. If everything's destroyed, then free will truly exists. Ultimately, I think he longs for freedom at any price.

[inkubate]

i may have come across as being literal, but the terms Dark and Light can also aply to Good and Evil....

 

but what i mean is that the DO does not have to win 'just once' he has to win and then keep winning, just like the people in Randland do now, LTT and his 100 companions beat the DO, but in the Borderlands, they have to win everyday...it will be much the same if the DO rules, he will have  to keep winning....

 

if i did say it in a very round-about way....

[inkubate]

P.S. i like your comment about Moridin, hadn't thought of that...

[BrainFireBob]

You're imposing a modern Christian theology. WoT is Manichean.

 

There are two primeval powers (laying aside theories of the Creator trapping himself).

 

They are co-equal in power. One is the Creator, one is the Dark One.

 

The Creator created the world and the Pattern, and locked the Dark One out of it, like a private garden.

 

The Dark One wants in, like a boy aching for his neighbor's apples.

 

They're not sources of good and evil. Those concepts don't apply to them. The closest we come is creation and destruction, perhaps even gendered and non-gendered. What you're propounding is dualism, which, if the Dark One had aided in the creation of the Wheel, might make sense, but is not the case. Creation is totally independent of him, except if he can force his way in, which he wishes to do to claim creation as his own. That'll involve destroying the Wheel and reincarnation cycles. It's not the DO and the Creator vying for control- the Creator either doesn't interfere, has moved on, or refuses to fight. It's the self-protection mechanisms built into the Wheel, as a kind of supercomputer, and the Dark One's trying to make the operating system crash in a denial-of-service attack, so he can re-write the source code.

[inkubate]

but they are bidding for power here...if the creator did not see the DO as a threat why would he lock him away before he could defend himself? Going with the computer analogy, that would be like a computer that writes its own kill virus, then buts fire walls and locks around it so it cant spread, but then buts smaller viruses on the 'inside' to help the major kill virus get through the firewalls and what not, the computer would have to know from the beginning that the kill virus is going to get free eventually, and that....just doesnt make sense.

 

also (please correct me if im wrong because i have a strong sense that i am) i dont think that the Creator made the DO, i think that the DO was a pre-existing force that the creator sealed away at the beginning of creation of Randland.....

 

and one more thing, where did the Creator come into play here? i never remember mentioning him, it was said in the books that he doesnt play a role and has been mentioned that he has moved on to other worlds...when i was refering to Good or light, i meant people...

[BrainFireBob]

Because the Creator creates and the Dark One tries to take his creations. The Creator doesn't need to see the Dark One as a threat.

 

The Dark One is equal to the Creator, not the devil, ultimately subservient to God.

 

The Dark One isn't the antithesis of anything in Creation. He just doesn't belong. So Creation tries to keep him out.

[Majsju]

The DO Is the antithesis of the Creator, but the antithesis of Creation is not Destruction, but Chaos.

[inkubate]

so this poses the question, would the DO prefer Chaos? or Destruction?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but wait, neither makes sense, the DO wants order, we have seen that he is very particular about order at times, and he wants destruction to the 'good guys' but to reshape the world in his image...now im confusing myself...

[BrainFireBob]

He wants obedience, not order.

[inkubate]

he wants obedience, which is a form of order...

[BrainFireBob]

Just shows he's not stupid. To win within the Pattern, he's got to win by the Pattern's rules.