Nynaeve was HAPPY to leave Emond's Field.

[GrandpaG]

Although, she would never admit to it.

 

She's always going on about "her people" of Emond's Field, and how she's worried that the place won't be the same without her there to keep things in order.  Bah.  She's glad to be gone.

 

If she had stayed there she would have ended up a stale, old maid who never did anything exciting or fun or even challenging.  Look at the adventures that she has had since she decided to join the team.  Egwene openly admits that she craves the adrenelin rush...Nynaeve keeps trying to deny it or at least give the impression that she would rather be back in Emond's Field heading up the Women's Circle and making sure that the Town Counsel doesn't mess things up.  Bah.  She's glad to be gone.

 

Had she stayed Wisdom, she probably would never have married let alone hooked up with a King.  Her block would have kept her from enjoying saidar like she does now.  Her "sturdy" clothes aren't worn any more, are they?  Bah.  She's glad she's gone.

 

How many wisdoms can claim to have helped to cleanse Saidin?  Or to have found a way to heal stilling?  If she had to return to be wisdom even with Lan at her side she wouldn't last a month without having to travel to Caemlyn "on official Wisdom business" of some sort.  Bah.  She's glad she's gone.

[dmanmiller34]

I agree whole heartedly. I mean who would want to stick around and have the most exiting thing that happens everyday is Cennie Blue Complaing to the mayor. I think that she ran off to find the others that left emonds feild more out of Jelousy that they got out while she was stuck there more than some puffed up sense of duty to "save" them that she goes on and on about.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think she's changed the least of all the Emonds fielders. She's still loyal to her people. Just look how she interacts with Rand, out everyone he grew up with I think he trusts her the most.

 

Speaking of Nyneave, do you think she would have ever figured out she could channel on her own? Apparently miraculously curing the injured and ill wasn't enough. Perhaps when she turned 60 and still looked 20 she'd figure it out? You know given how many women there are with the spark in the Two Rivers, you'd think there'd be at least a couple of women who are few centuries old.

[GrandpaG]

I think she's changed the least of all the Emonds fielders. She's still loyal to her people. Just look how she interacts with Rand, out everyone he grew up with I think he trusts her the most.

 

Speaking of Nyneave, do you think she would have ever figured out she could channel on her own? Apparently miraculously curing the injured and ill wasn't enough. Perhaps when she turned 60 and still looked 20 she'd figure it out? You know given how many women there are with the spark in the Two Rivers, you'd think there'd be at least a couple of women who are few centuries old.

 

 

They're probably not quite "inbred" but definitely most people are probably shirt tail relation to one another and all decendents of the few survivors of what had been Manatheren.  At least south of Taren Ferry, I would imagine.  Outsiders consider them country hicks and so they don't likely cross the Taren to go cruising for chicks.  Two Rivers folk stick to themselves.  I doubt that they send their women who can channel to be trained in the White Tower or Moraine and Verin would not be so surprised to find the heavy concentration of channellers.

 

Since Ny had already developed her block she probably would have survived.  I get the idea from other posts that longevity increases with actually using the power often.  The Kin in Ebou Dar did.  Other women like Sharina (?) who is the 67 year old novice with the rebels do age because they don't channel even though they can.  If Ny only channelled when she was angry enough and healing someone, she probably would have been an old wisdom but would still have died much younger than she will now (if a halfman doesn't kill her or something).

 

She still worries about her people, but I think she is really enjoying being away from the village.  She'd be bored stiff if she had to go back to being just a wisdom.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think she's changed the least of all the Emonds fielders. She's still loyal to her people. Just look how she interacts with Rand, out everyone he grew up with I think he trusts her the most.

 

Speaking of Nyneave, do you think she would have ever figured out she could channel on her own? Apparently miraculously curing the injured and ill wasn't enough. Perhaps when she turned 60 and still looked 20 she'd figure it out? You know given how many women there are with the spark in the Two Rivers, you'd think there'd be at least a couple of women who are few centuries old.

 

Since Ny had already developed her block she probably would have survived.  I get the idea from other posts that longevity increases with actually using the power often.  The Kin in Ebou Dar did.  Other women like Sharina (?) who is the 67 year old novice with the rebels do age because they don't channel even though they can.  If Ny only channelled when she was angry enough and healing someone, she probably would have been an old wisdom but would still have died much younger than she will now (if a halfman doesn't kill her or something).

 

 

Nynaeve gets angry all the time. She certainly channeled enough to slow, she was already as strong as Moriane at this point IIRC.

[Davram]

'Nods'

By the way how do u create a signature..

[jaimevotrechapeau]

I mean, I dont think at the point when she LEFT she was happy she did. I think at the commencement of EotW she wasnt exactly thrilled about leaving, but I do believe that if she went back to Emond's Field at the beg. of the eotw and she KNEW exactly what would happen to her if she left i do believe she would make the choice to leave again.

[GrandpaG]

'Nods'

By the way how do u create a signature..

 

 

The Illuminators have a section where you can get sig help.

[Charlz Guybon]

'Nods'

By the way how do u create a signature..

 

To make my map of Elyane's kingdom, I just used Microsoft Paint to erase the border between Andor and Cairhien, and painted in the border south of Aringill. If I knew how far south Pelivar and co. had moved the Murundian border I would have edited that as well.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I agree she'd leave Emond's Field if she could do it all over again, but I don't think she was happy to do it. She loves her people, and I think she truly followed Moiraine and crowd (at least at first) to look out for the Emond's Fielders.

 

Inside, Nynaeve is one of the most sincere characters in the entire novel. Almost everyone else becomes manipulative to some extent, but Nyn's heart remains pure. Yes, she does have a hot temper and too often says what she should keep to herself, but she never means it in a hurtful way. I agree with Charlz that she has changed the least.

 

I think a small part of Nynaeve does wish that things to go back to the way they used to be, sweet and simple. She definitely could never return to that life now, but with the world falling to pieces and Tarmon Gai'don approaching, it's only natural to be a little wistful.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hey, Charlz ... you forgot to draw the new border near Whitebridge.  You know, where Elayne's kingdom stops and Perrin's begins?  ;D

[Charlz Guybon]

Hey, Charlz ... you forgot to draw the new border near Whitebridge.  You know, where Elayne's kingdom stops and Perrin's begins?  ;D

No one west of Whitebridge aside from the folks in the Two Rivers would know Perrin from a sack of potatoes. Perrin never intended to set up an independent country in the Two Rivers, and vows not to in KoD. Moreover he'll be way to busy ruling Saldea in the future to bother with plots of Two Rivers secession even if he wanted to. Andor west of Whitebridge will remain Andoran, if for no other reason that the only major trade route connecting the mines of the mountains of mist leads to Whitebridge. Also Perrin would never start a war that could be avoided by something as simple in his eyes as swearing fealty to Elayne, a friend.

[Astarael]

I think that since Perrin is basically the leader of Manetheran (sp?) It will just end up being everyone who has the old blood in them and remembers something of it making their own country and either forcing people out of the land or taking them in to join them. I bet two rivers will end up being the new capital.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think that since Perrin is basically the leader of Manetheran (sp?) It will just end up being everyone who has the old blood in them and remembers something of it making their own country and either forcing people out of the land or taking them in to join them. I bet two rivers will end up being the new capital.

Perrin wouldn't do anything like that. He's totally non-confrontational, as long as no one violently invades he won't do anything. Elayne asking him to swear fealty and sending tax collectors doesn't qualify. Moreover, despite the Two River's new prosperity, they are not strong enough to stand on their own.

[Mr Ares]

I think that since Perrin is basically the leader of Manetheran (sp?) It will just end up being everyone who has the old blood in them and remembers something of it making their own country and either forcing people out of the land or taking them in to join them. I bet two rivers will end up being the new capital.

Perrin is not "basically the leader of Menetheran. He is the de facto Lord of the Two Rivers, and the Queen of Ghealdan is his vassal. He has given up all claim to Manetheran, and he has no desire for a war to separate his "country" from Andor. He will remain Lord of Ghealdan only until after TG, when Alliandre can begin ruling in her own right. He has no desire to be King (bad choice of wife then) and will not keep Ghealdan longer than he has to. The TR will be brought under Andoran control, or at least that is more likely than independance. Elayne has no desire to let any part of her Kingdom go, and is already none to happy with giving part to the Sea Folk. If she could bring this region under Andoran control in fact as well as law, she would, as it would help establish her as Queen. Of course, if none of the nations survive, then this becomes moot, but if they do, Perrin will swear fealty to Elayne rather than fight her for an independance that he doesn't care all that much about, when he has bigger things to worry about. And the TR is a shite suggestion for a capital, it's a region containing villages, farms, and some small towns, not relly the ideal place to make a capital city is it? Not overnight, at least.

 

Perrin wouldn't do anything like that. He's totally non-confrontational, as long as no one violently invades he won't do anything. Elayne asking him to swear fealty and sending tax collectors doesn't qualify. Moreover, despite the Two River's new prosperity, they are not strong enough to stand on their own.

Completely true.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I should point out to everyone, in the interest of clarity, that my statement to you, Charlz, was a joke.

 

To put it shortly ... calm down.  I was just messing with you.  ;)

 

In a serious vein, I don't think its quite so cut and dried obvious as you say that Perrin will just "swear fealty to a friend".  The political implications of that will be more complicated, since the next time he sees Elayne, he will be not only the Lord of the Two Rivers (by common acclaim, not Elayne's doing), but leige lord of the Queen of Ghealdan, and very possibly King of Saldaea.

 

I'm not saying there's no way it will happen.  But I would be terribly, TERRIBLY disaapointed if Andor basically survives Tarmon Gaidon unscathed, in its present format, and even adds Cairhien.  I can see several possible scenarios in which Perrin makes a new nation out of what is now western Andor, Ghealdan, Saldaea, and the section of wilderness that separates northwest Andor and Saldaea.  And I can see him opening that area for Seanchan settlers, as part of a post-Tarmon Gaidon treaty.

 

And I can see Elayne agreeing to it, provided she gets Cairhien in return.  The Queen's Writ barely runs to Baerlon as it is.  She would definitely trade that mildly lucrative town for complete control of the Erinin from Aringill to Tar Valon, and access to Sharan goods through the Waste (which she could negotiate for through the Wise One Aviendha, who will just happen to be her sister-wife as well).

 

As for Perrin's lack of desire, that is a factor, but don't underestimate Faile.  Especially if she can manage to disguise her ambition as part of a settlement with the Seanchan, she will be expanding her hubby's kingdom as hard as she can.

 

All this speculation is, of course, assuming that the world is in the same physical shape at the end of Tarmon Gaidon that it was at the beginning.  I'm not at all sure thats an assumption we should make.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The TR will be brought under Andoran control, or at least that is more likely than independance. Elayne has no desire to let any part of her Kingdom go, and is already none to happy with giving part to the Sea Folk. If she could bring this region under Andoran control in fact as well as law, she would, as it would help establish her as Queen. Of course, if none of the nations survive, then this becomes moot, but if they do, Perrin will swear fealty to Elayne rather than fight her for an independance that he doesn't care all that much about, when he has bigger things to worry about. And the TR is a shite suggestion for a capital, it's a region containing villages, farms, and some small towns, not relly the ideal place to make a capital city is it? Not overnight, at least.

 

I disagree.  Andor will not be able to reestablish control in the Two Rivers.  RJ has used our history and myths as a model throughout the books.  If he continues in that pattern, Andor will attempt to reestablish control but will fail miserably.  What we are seeing in the Two Rivers is a post World War II style end to colonialism.  The Two Rivers people will not accept outside rule after being forced to fend for themselves against Trollocs and Whitecloaks.

[Majsju]

The TR will either become an independent nation, or form a larger combined with Saldea. Like some others, I think Elayne will allow this, since she most likely will be able to form a union between Andor and Cairhien.

 

However, this does in no way mean that Manetheren is brought back. Manetheren is dead, don't poke the corpse, it smells. Whatever happens to TR, alone or a union with Saldea, even if Ghealdan was brought into it, will be a New nation.

[Charlz Guybon]

The TR will be brought under Andoran control, or at least that is more likely than independance. Elayne has no desire to let any part of her Kingdom go, and is already none to happy with giving part to the Sea Folk. If she could bring this region under Andoran control in fact as well as law, she would, as it would help establish her as Queen. Of course, if none of the nations survive, then this becomes moot, but if they do, Perrin will swear fealty to Elayne rather than fight her for an independance that he doesn't care all that much about, when he has bigger things to worry about. And the TR is a shite suggestion for a capital, it's a region containing villages, farms, and some small towns, not relly the ideal place to make a capital city is it? Not overnight, at least.

 

I disagree.  Andor will not be able to reestablish control in the Two Rivers.  RJ has used our history and myths as a model throughout the books.  If he continues in that pattern, Andor will attempt to reestablish control but will fail miserably.  What we are seeing in the Two Rivers is a post World War II style end to colonialism.  The Two Rivers people will not accept outside rule after being forced to fend for themselves against Trollocs and Whitecloaks.

I think your colonialism comparison is just bizzare, the only ones colonizing anything is the Seanchan, and they surely won't lose what they've gained.

 

They can either continue to struggle on their own or come under the protection of the Andoran government. They are not large enough to maintain their independence for long.

[Charlz Guybon]

The TR will either become an independent nation, or form a larger combined with Saldea. Like some others, I think Elayne will allow this, since she most likely will be able to form a union between Andor and Cairhien.

 

However, this does in no way mean that Manetheren is brought back. Manetheren is dead, don't poke the corpse, it smells. Whatever happens to TR, alone or a union with Saldea, even if Ghealdan was brought into it, will be a New nation.

 

Andor and Cairhien are right next to each other. Saldaea is over a thousand miles away with nothing but empty wilderness between them. You'd need to build bridges over the White River to link up with Ghealdan, but even then the disparity in population would result in the Two Rivers being absorbed as a small northern province of Ghealdan. There can't be an equitable merger when there's a demographic imbalance of that scale.

[Majsju]

The TR will either become an independent nation, or form a larger combined with Saldea. Like some others, I think Elayne will allow this, since she most likely will be able to form a union between Andor and Cairhien.

 

However, this does in no way mean that Manetheren is brought back. Manetheren is dead, don't poke the corpse, it smells. Whatever happens to TR, alone or a union with Saldea, even if Ghealdan was brought into it, will be a New nation.

 

Andor and Cairhien are right next to each other. Saldaea is over a thousand miles away with nothing but empty wilderness between them. You'd need to build bridges over the White River to link up with Ghealdan, but even then the disparity in population would result in the Two Rivers being absorbed as a small northern province of Ghealdan. There can't be an equitable merger when there's a demographic imbalance of that scale.

 

By your logic, Alaska would have been absorbed by Canada long ago, Sibiria would have split from Russia, to just mention two examples of nations perfectly able to stick together even though huge distances and other nations form natural obstacles.

 

The population in the TR is growing rapidly. After TG Saldea should start to grow as well, when they no longer have trollocs and myrdraal constantly decimating their numbers. Sounds like a good plan to have a good chunk of empty space so you are prepared when the population starts to become too big. And in case you skipped a certain chapter in KOD, there is a leap in technology going on that will greatly reduce the obstacle distances used to be.

 

Thing is, there is an obvious connection between TR and Saldea, Perrin. The lord of TR married to soon-to-be queen of saldea.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The TR will be brought under Andoran control, or at least that is more likely than independance. Elayne has no desire to let any part of her Kingdom go, and is already none to happy with giving part to the Sea Folk. If she could bring this region under Andoran control in fact as well as law, she would, as it would help establish her as Queen. Of course, if none of the nations survive, then this becomes moot, but if they do, Perrin will swear fealty to Elayne rather than fight her for an independance that he doesn't care all that much about, when he has bigger things to worry about. And the TR is a shite suggestion for a capital, it's a region containing villages, farms, and some small towns, not relly the ideal place to make a capital city is it? Not overnight, at least.

 

I disagree.  Andor will not be able to reestablish control in the Two Rivers.  RJ has used our history and myths as a model throughout the books.  If he continues in that pattern, Andor will attempt to reestablish control but will fail miserably.  What we are seeing in the Two Rivers is a post World War II style end to colonialism.  The Two Rivers people will not accept outside rule after being forced to fend for themselves against Trollocs and Whitecloaks.

I think your colonialism comparison is just bizzare, the only ones colonizing anything is the Seanchan, and they surely won't lose what they've gained.

 

They can either continue to struggle on their own or come under the protection of the Andoran government. They are not large enough to maintain their independence for long.

 

Let me try to lay it out for you.

 

Prior to World War II, Indonesia was still considered a colony under Netherlands rule.  (The Two Rivers ruled by Andor as a distant and disinterested ruler.)  World War II came and the Japanese overran Indonesia. (The Trollocs and Whitecloaks brought by Fain and Slayer.)  With the end of World War II, Indonesia declared independence.  (The Two Rivers raising the Menetheren and Wolf Banners.)  At that time the Netherlands were still recovering from German occupation.  (Andor's armies will be heavily involved in Tarmon Gaidon.)  Once they had sufficiently recovered, the Netherlands attempted to reimpose rule by armed strength.  The failed to do so and were forced to accept Indonesian independance.  (Andor weakend by Tarmon Gaidon, attempting a military enforcement of rule in the Two Rivers and failing to do so.)

[Mr Ares]

Well, it seems like I managed to get some discussion started here. Mow, to respond to my adoring fans:

The TR will be brought under Andoran control, or at least that is more likely than independance. Elayne has no desire to let any part of her Kingdom go, and is already none to happy with giving part to the Sea Folk. If she could bring this region under Andoran control in fact as well as law, she would, as it would help establish her as Queen. Of course, if none of the nations survive, then this becomes moot, but if they do, Perrin will swear fealty to Elayne rather than fight her for an independance that he doesn't care all that much about, when he has bigger things to worry about. And the TR is a shite suggestion for a capital, it's a region containing villages, farms, and some small towns, not relly the ideal place to make a capital city is it? Not overnight, at least.

 

I disagree.  Andor will not be able to reestablish control in the Two Rivers.  RJ has used our history and myths as a model throughout the books.  If he continues in that pattern, Andor will attempt to reestablish control but will fail miserably.  What we are seeing in the Two Rivers is a post World War II style end to colonialism.  The Two Rivers people will not accept outside rule after being forced to fend for themselves against Trollocs and Whitecloaks.

I think your colonialism comparison is just bizzare, the only ones colonizing anything is the Seanchan, and they surely won't lose what they've gained.

 

They can either continue to struggle on their own or come under the protection of the Andoran government. They are not large enough to maintain their independence for long.

 

Let me try to lay it out for you.

 

Prior to World War II, Indonesia was still considered a colony under Netherlands rule.   (The Two Rivers ruled by Andor as a distant and disinterested ruler.)  World War II came and the Japanese overran Indonesia. (The Trollocs and Whitecloaks brought by Fain and Slayer.)  With the end of World War II, Indonesia declared independence.  (The Two Rivers raising the Menetheren and Wolf Banners.)  At that time the Netherlands were still recovering from German occupation.  (Andor's armies will be heavily involved in Tarmon Gaidon.)  Once they had sufficiently recovered, the Netherlands attempted to reimpose rule by armed strength.  The failed to do so and were forced to accept Indonesian independance.  (Andor weakend by Tarmon Gaidon, attempting a military enforcement of rule in the Two Rivers and failing to do so.)

You don't see a bit of a difference between the TR/ Andor situation, where the TR is part of a single contiguous nation, and the Indonesia/Netherlands situation, where they are on what are generally held to be separate continents? (Well, Indonesia is an archipelago, but it's near Asia.) Let's look at the Tr situation in a bit more detail. What benefit did they get from being in Andor? Only the basic protection of being on Andoran soil, and so if someone invaded, they would risk Andor's wrath. They got no active protection, and Fain and Slayer both had more important things to worry about, and the possible threat of Andor was irrelevant to them, basically. However, in return for only that most passive of protections, there were no disbenefits imposed on the TR. In short, while they may have lacked the protection most Andoran's have, they didn't pay any taxes. Was the same true of Indonesia? Did they pay taxes, or provide some sort of service in kind, and not recieve the protection they needed? If they paid no taxes, then what was the point of making them a colony, and why did they expect any protection? Bad example, in short. And what impositions did the Netheralnds government make on their colonial possessions? Because Andor made none on the TR, which is more an Andoran province than a colony. If they were to become independant, then they would be surrounded by potentially hostile states, without the manpower to defend them. If they were to form an alliance with ghealdan, as pointed out already they would likely be swallowed up, unless their Lord remains as good as the Firsts of Mayene at keeping them separate, most probably by playing Andor and Ghealdan off against each other. Why bother, when they can simply agree to become a semi-independant province of Andor, offering taxes for protection, and whatever other benefits Andoran citizenship would bring.

 

If Perrin were to swear allegiance to Elayne, then that need not necessarily have any effect on Saldaea or Ghealdan - it is possible for the TR to be under Andoran control, and his non-Andoran territories to remain under his own control, or return Ghealdan to its rightful ruler. I still see it as more likely that he would relinquish control of Ghealdan when it is reasonably stable, rather than keep it, regardless of any manipulation on Faile's part, although some sort of agreement to allow Seanchan settlement could be allowed. Although that is rand's plan, I'm not sure that ealyne will end up running two countries, in Andor and Cairhien. I think it more likely that someone else will end up as King or Queen of Cairhien. I realise, of course, that Elayne would probably be very willing to trade some small parts of Andor for Cairhien, I'm just not sure she'll get the chance, and that, in my view, would make her more likely to attempt to bring Andor's outlying provinces back under her control. As it is, forming an independant nation is an idea with it's own weaknesses, and Saldaea is farther away than Caemlyn. Therefore, it would make more sense, from a practical standpoint, to be ruled from Caemlyn, although they could still maintain a measure of independance.

 

In short, I think that TR being part of Andor is more likely than some of the alternatives presented here, although I do recognise the merits of the various opposing cases. There does appear to be one thing, however, that we all agree on: Manetheren is dead and will stay that way. And, of course, if none of the nations survive TG, new ones will need to be created.

[Charlz Guybon]

Let me try to lay it out for you.

 

Prior to World War II, Indonesia was still considered a colony under Netherlands rule.  (The Two Rivers ruled by Andor as a distant and disinterested ruler.)  World War II came and the Japanese overran Indonesia. (The Trollocs and Whitecloaks brought by Fain and Slayer.)  With the end of World War II, Indonesia declared independence.  (The Two Rivers raising the Menetheren and Wolf Banners.)  At that time the Netherlands were still recovering from German occupation.  (Andor's armies will be heavily involved in Tarmon Gaidon.)  Once they had sufficiently recovered, the Netherlands attempted to reimpose rule by armed strength.  The failed to do so and were forced to accept Indonesian independance.  (Andor weakend by Tarmon Gaidon, attempting a military enforcement of rule in the Two Rivers and failing to do so.)

I know what you're referring to, you're just ridiculously mistaken. The situations are in no way alike. The Dutch were subjugating people who were of a different race, spoke a different language and followed a different religion who literally lived on the opposite side of the planet. The is virtually no differences between the people of the Two Rivers and eastern Andor. Ethnically, linguistically, and religiously they're the same.

 

I don't think that Andor will have to use any force against the Two Rivers, everything will be worked out via negotiation. The Two Rivers will pay taxes and recieve the protection of the Queen's Guard just like every other province of Andor.