Rand and the Third Man *****(KoD spoilers)*****

[RobertAlexWillis]

Anyways, about Rand not being able to use the TP: If the chord that connects all Forsaken to the DO is what enables them to use the TP, then Rand should be able to use it from Moridin's body, assuming the connection is to the body of the forsaken, rather than the soul.

 

Sorry, Ealdur.  Incorrect.  The author says:

 

Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

 

Its not the black cords.  The black cords are probably a visualization of the Forsaken mark.  Its worth noting that they have never actually been seen in the real world.  Rand saw them on Ishamael twice.  First, at the Eye, in Ishamael's quasi-Dream-world room (which probably is either in or related to T'A'R) and the second time, in the Stone, after he chased Ishy into T'A'R.  When he "cut off" Asmodean from the Dark One, he visualized them, but didn't see them.  And they've made no appearance since.

 

And the DO probably wouldn't be fully aware of what was going on, being limited by his vision through Shaidar Haran. I don't think the DO is omniscient...

 

While the Dark One certainly is not omniscient, he does know everything that is being done with the True Power, because it is drawn directly from him, every time.  See the quote above, and another quote on the same page:

 

No one can tell if you're using the True Power, except the Dark One, of course.

[Majsju]

Tamyrlin: I’m trying to verify Rand’s impression he has at the end of book four, regarding the connection he cuts of Asmodean to the Dark One. He seemed to believe it was the connection directly from that individual to the Dark One. So what I am wondering is, is that connection key to transmigration?

 

Jordan: No, because what you are thinking of wasn’t a connection, Rand thought it was.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/Second-QampA--Saturday/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

 

I think, that since RJ says it is not a connection as such, the black cords Might have been a visualization of the filter that protected the male forsaken from the taint. Especially since Asmo flat out says that he does not have the DOs protection from that anymore.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

You know, if LTT in Rand's head is an effect of "madness," shouldn't it be a mental condition, rather than a spiritual one?

 

If that is so, switching bodies should rid himself of the voice.

 

I've never read anything to make me think that the taint affects the soul, and I don't think Graendal would be capable of integrating the personality if it was anything more than a mental condition.

 

But of course, if memories aren't impressed upon the soul, Rand's switching bodies would mean nothing, basically, because he would have Moridin's brain.

 

So perhaps LTT is a spiritual condition, somehow.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Weird... I never thought of it like that.  If that is the case, I doubt RJ will go along with the body swap theory.

[Luckers]

Anyways, Luckers, I'm wondering what you think: If Rand and Moridin swapped bodies, would Lews Therin stay with Rand's body, or would it move with his soul?

 

I find it unlikely that Lews Therin's conciousness would stay in Rands body. It is merely another facet personality as the same soul as Rand's, and if Rand left, he must leave too. It's possible that some form of reintergration will occur when this event happens, though i find that unlikely too.

 

Also, about Ishy's death: I feel like it would be necessary for him to die before the bond can be broken, and if the bond is not broken, Rand should still get sick when he tries to wield the OP.

 

I also think that that is possible, but we have no evidence suggesting what that bond can survive. It's just as reasonable to suggest that the bodyswap itself over stresses and destroys it. Or, if Moridin were severed from the True Source (as i suspect he will be during the fight with Rand) that could just as easily sever the connection.

 

Anyways, about Rand not being able to use the TP: If the chord that connects all Forsaken to the DO is what enables them to use the TP, then Rand should be able to use it from Moridin's body, assuming the connection is to the body of the forsaken, rather than the soul.

 

And the DO probably wouldn't be fully aware of what was going on, being limited by his vision through Shaidar Haran. I don't think the DO is omniscient...

 

The Dark One is not omniscient, but RJ has made clear that every single time the True Power is used it can only be done with his concious permission. Additionally, as Robert pointed out, those wires do not serve the function of channeling the True Power, though they may be involved (the method of asking permission, perhaps).

 

You know, if LTT in Rand's head is an effect of "madness," shouldn't it be a mental condition, rather than a spiritual one?

 

If that is so, switching bodies should rid himself of the voice.

 

I've never read anything to make me think that the taint affects the soul, and I don't think Graendal would be capable of integrating the personality if it was anything more than a mental condition.

 

But of course, if memories aren't impressed upon the soul, Rand's switching bodies would mean nothing, basically, because he would have Moridin's brain.

 

So perhaps LTT is a spiritual condition, somehow.

 

You have a misconception of what 'madness' is. Modern psychologists do not even use the word, rather prefering to look unstable mental states; effectively mental states that interfere with your ability to interact socially and personally. Under such a guage, Rand's mental state would not even be termed as a psychosis. Moreover, the belief that madness has some form of qualitative form that Rand's state escapes is flawed; it's true that we don't commonly recognise spiritual divisions in the soul, but in our world the examination of such would prove impossible; nevertheless, where it possible, and where LTT's voice proved to be that of a real past life, Rand would still be classified just the same as if it were caused by a dopamine block--a low-level functioning schitsophrenic with post-traumatic stress and a possible dissassociative personality disorder (I think: if there are any full psychologists out there feel free to way in and tell me if i got that wrong).

 

Moving forward, concider the Taint for a moment. We know that is causes no specific psychosis; in the list of what we have heard people speak of there are auditory and visual hallucinations, reversions to childhood, hysteria, a complete psychotic break with reality (LTT), paranoia, etc. Effectively, looking at the taint as a madness is flawed. It is more the catalyst for the degradation of mental stability, resulting in the assergence and inability to control prevailing mental issues. So, a casual fear of spiders in a child results in the man who screamed he had spiders on him. In many ways it seems to me to be like LSD; it can cause the onset of underlying psychosis.

 

Now bringing us back into the books, we also have a statement from Semirhage regarding the existance of people who have heard 'real voices' prior to the tainting of Saidin. Therefore, logically, if this can occur naturally, than it is plausible that it can occur as a result of mental instability caused by exposure to the Taint. More than plausible when you concider that if anyone has a prevailing issue with the manifestation and intergration of old facet personalities its a hero of the horn (especially one specifically connected in prophecy).

 

As a seperate issue, this suggests that aside from how offer the person is exposed to the taint, their mental stability and strength of will can effect how quickly they fall victim, and to what extent. This provides an explanation for why some men were able to hold off deep psychosis until they rotted to death, as well as the varying lengths of time it takes different characters to sucumb.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

But it is different from reality in that the voices in his head are "real." Lews Therin existed.

 

I think, knowing this about Lews, I have to go ahead with my soul theory.

 

I've mentioned it before, but basically, each soul is impressed upon by the lives it has lived and the memories it has had, though the memories are blocked by some kind of barrier, which is broken down by the taint.

 

So the soul contains the memories of every life lived by that person, though the Wheel disguises those memories.

 

So Lews is the result of the taint affecting the mechanism of the wheel which blocks the memories of past lives.

 

Also according to my theory, the abilities a person has had in a previous life may resurface in the current life, intially appearing, perhaps, as an "aptitude" for something.

 

For Rand, this was blademastery. Also, I think we can assume that the soul stored those memories in the subconscious, allowing Rand to access the memories of certain weaves, unwittingly, though he had no knowledge of what he was doing and it certainly wasn't conscious.

 

But that is basically what I think about that. What do you think?

[Luckers]

But it is different from reality in that the voices in his head are "real." Lews Therin existed.

 

It is different from OUR reality (at least so far as can be proven, though there are nigh on two billion people of varying religions worldwide who would disagree with that), but it is not different from THEIR reality. In the reality of the books there are those that hear real voices in their heads. Voices of personalities that existed.

 

As to the rest of the post, there is not contention there. Previous facet personalities do still exist within the makeup of the soul, and taint did destabalize Rand to the point where the barrier between himself and the previous facet personality decayed.

 

I'm afraid, however, that i do not see the continuation of this... how does this state of dualistic soul/body(facet personality) increase the likelyhood that Lews Therin would remain behind? We're dealing with a soul/body relationship here that is relative, affect one and there is an effect in the other (though seemingly not an equal one). The fact that Lews Therin's voice is real does not make Rand 'sane' as he has a dramatic disruptive effect of Rand emotional, personal and social stability, and the fact that Rand is suffering from something that fits the terms of a mental illness does not mean that Lews Therin is not a function of Rand's soul.

 

Also according to my theory, the abilities a person has had in a previous life may resurface in the current life, intially appearing, perhaps, as an "aptitude" for something.

 

For Rand, this was blademastery. Also, I think we can assume that the soul stored those memories in the subconscious, allowing Rand to access the memories of certain weaves, unwittingly, though he had no knowledge of what he was doing and it certainly wasn't conscious.

 

Do you mean to claim that this is something that occurs with all people in WoT? Certainly the prevelance of the 'old blood' in the early books might support that. I do however think the suggestion that Rand's skill with a blade is function of this. We're dealing with a boy who has been trained since a very young age in controlled forms of physical exercise (the quarterstaff, the bow, riding etc) added to certain mental training as well (the void). Beyond that he recieved a years training under one of the best blademasters around, and even then he knows he was not as talented as Turak, however it might be that he won (more than probably saidin played a hand. That is how early untrained channeling manifests, and Turak did stumble for no reason). Effectively i doubt that it can be claimed that that was any form of 'spiritual memory' at work, especially given past memories and other such did not begin to appear properly until the Dragon Reborn.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Realistically, its impossible to say with certainty in some of these cases, exactly why the things that happened, happened.  Take the fight with Turak, for instance.  Was it a ta'veren twisting of chance?  Certainly a poorly timed (for Turak) stumble is within the realm of what we've seen ta'veren do.  (Aram getting shot when Perrin trips comes to mind) 

 

Or subconscious channeling?  Rand is only beginning to recognize his own channeling by this time, so its by no means impossible that this is what happened. 

 

Regular luck? 

 

Natural aptitude? 

 

"Soul-memory"? 

 

Rand's mental, spiritual, and physical situation is so complicated, that sometimes the causes for specific effects cannot be clearly delineated.  But they are all contributing factors to his overall development.  Both Lews Therin's specific memories (shared consciously or subconsciously) as well the natural proclivities of the "Dragon Soul Template" are in play here (I'm talking overall picture here, not necessarily the fight with Turak).  One does not preclude the other.  And both do not preclude the many other influences in play (good physical conditioning, intense drive to learn, excellent teachers, etc).  Singling out any one cause as the "main" reason is probably not too accurate.

[Luckers]

Clearly Dobby did it.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Right. The house elf didn't really stay dead you know...

 

House elf necromancy is very well documented... ;)

[Safia al-Maaz]

Perhaps it will turn out like "A Beautiful Mind" where the guy is schitzophrenic (sp?) and they can never cure him of seeing people, but lives with seeing them his entire life and just ignores them.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I doubt it. At the very least, if nothing else, the voice will cease to exist after Rand fights the Last Battle, I think.

 

Kind of like Harry Potter's scar.

[Majsju]

Of course the voice will cease to exust after TG, a dead boy can't hear ant voices.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

lol. We shall see, won't we.

 

Remember, Rand has to be a beggar sometime in the next two months (if the LB is going to happen in 2 months), if indeed he is going to die at Tarmon Gaidon.

[Majsju]

No, he does not have to be a beggar. Visions can be symbolic, you know---

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I'm open to other interpretation...

 

Care to share your theory?

[Majsju]

I don't have a particulat theory regarding this. Everything I can thin of gets tossed in the can by RJs insistance that there is only one book left, and there is simply not enough time left for any major twist.

 

For all we know, it might already have happened. Between the attack on Rand in Cairhien and his meeting with "Tuon", he has pretty much given up on all the grandeur of being the Dragon Reborn, especially before going to Far Madding.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Yeah, but that isn't that obvious. I don't think he'll leave most readers wondering about that prophecy. It's probably going to be something a little more intuitive.

[Charlz Guybon]

I don't have a particulat theory regarding this. Everything I can thin of gets tossed in the can by RJs insistance that there is only one book left, and there is simply not enough time left for any major twist.

 

For all we know, it might already have happened. Between the attack on Rand in Cairhien and his meeting with "Tuon", he has pretty much given up on all the grandeur of being the Dragon Reborn, especially before going to Far Madding.

 

Saying "one" book is a little misleading. It'll probably be at least twice as long as KoD. That's plenty of time for a couple of twists.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There are two separate visions here.  One is Min's viewing in TEoTW ch 15, in which she saw an image of "a beggar's staff" around Rand.  For all we know, that one was fulfilled when Mat and Rand had to basically beg their way to Caemlyn after the incidents at Shadar Logoth.  If it has yet to be fulfilled, then it could mean any of a number of things.  As Maj rightly points out, viewings, dreams, and Foretellings can often be very symbolic.

 

The second is a Wolfdream that Perrin has in TSR ch 53 where Perrin sees someone, and he "thought it was Rand.  He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes."

 

This one, because of the bandage over Rand's eyes, is almost certainly yet to be fulfilled.  It doesn't, however, have to have anything to do with being a beggar.  "Rags and a rough cloak" could just be messed up clothing indicating he's on the run, or hiding.  The bandage over his eyes indicates to me that his eye problem isn't just going away ... in fact, it's probably going to get worse.  Given the fact that the bandage over the eyes made it all the way to the Fisher icon that Morifin associated with Rand, I personally think that Rand will go either mostly or completely blind.

 

Perrin still has to save Rand from Aes Sedai one more time.  There are 13 Aes Sedai with unknown affiliations and an unknown agenda with the Borderlanders.  Something "dark" has been seen in Bashere's future, and the Broken Crown has been seen in the future for Perrin.  I think its no accident that Perrin is the one who saw Rand with "rags and a rough cloak", since I think that Rand will be put in that situation by having to flee from a trap the Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are setting (a trap will result in the death of both Tenobia and Bashere), and Perrin will be the one to save him from it.

 

This is, of course, very much my own opinion.  But I think it fits a coverging pattern.

[Charlz Guybon]

Perrin still has to save Rand from Aes Sedai one more time.  There are 13 Aes Sedai with unknown affiliations and an unknown agenda with the Borderlanders.  Something "dark" has been seen in Bashere's future, and the Broken Crown has been seen in the future for Perrin.  I think its no accident that Perrin is the one who saw Rand with "rags and a rough cloak", since I think that Rand will be put in that situation by having to flee from a trap the Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are setting (a trap will result in the death of both Tenobia and Bashere), and Perrin will be the one to save him from it.

 

This is, of course, very much my own opinion.  But I think it fits a coverging pattern.

Can I see the wording, or have the link to this fortelling/dream.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sure thing.

 

Min to Rand, LoC ch 41:

 

"Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled."

 

Min to Rand, about Rand and Perrin, LoC ch 46:

 

"And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

My assessment is based on the idea that these two are directly related, and the Dumai's Wells was number one.  Number two is still pending.

[Luckers]

Perrin still has to save Rand from Aes Sedai one more time.  There are 13 Aes Sedai with unknown affiliations and an unknown agenda with the Borderlanders.  Something "dark" has been seen in Bashere's future, and the Broken Crown has been seen in the future for Perrin.  I think its no accident that Perrin is the one who saw Rand with "rags and a rough cloak", since I think that Rand will be put in that situation by having to flee from a trap the Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are setting (a trap will result in the death of both Tenobia and Bashere), and Perrin will be the one to save him from it.

 

This is, of course, very much my own opinion.  But I think it fits a coverging pattern.

Can I see the wording, or have the link to this fortelling/dream.

 

It's actually a combination of two visions that most people read as being related. They are as follows

 

I saw an aura around you [Rand] in the throne room. Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused; I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once.

 

~Lord of Chaos - A Threat

 

Min: When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever.... But with two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you.... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad.

 

Rand: Then I'll just have to keep him around.

 

Min: I don't know that that will be enough, it will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand.

 

~ Lord of Chaos - Beyond the Gate

 

The first bad thing Perrin had to be there for is almost certainly the kidnapping by the Tower Aes Sedai, which is also almost certainly the first of the two times that women who can channel hurt Rand. Most people believe that these viewings are linked, and certainly there is enough suggestive evidence to support that, given the high likelyhood of the thirteen Aes Sedai being black, or at the least something terrible happening when Rand and Bashere approach the Borderlanders. Add to that the proximity between Perrin, and the connection to the borderlanders through Faile (and the viewing of the Broken Crown) it does seem fairly likely that the second incident of pain, and of Perrin's heroicism are the same event, and refering to the upcoming meeting between Rand and the Borderlanders.

 

As for the beggar... I have no issues believing Perrin's interpretation... alternatively if the bodyswap is true, this could be refering to Moridin's stated after TG before Alivia and Rand hunt him down. *shrug*

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ha ha, beat you to it.  ;D

[Luckers]

My answer was so much cooler!

 

:)