A question re Verin...Warning Spoilers Book 12

[Figs and Mice]

As one who read all the books years ago but only joined this site during the TV show , I do not know whether this was discussed in the past ; but I am curious to know if there is anything in the companion literature or discussions that throws more light on the exact circumstances of Verin's joining the Black Ajah ?

 

As she recounts to Egwene in TGS , she was right from the start dedicated to working within as a sort of double agent ; but that she actually took the oaths to the Great Lord as the alternative would have been death at the hands of a posse of Blacks. (Also that Tomas "was a Darkfriend who wanted out" ) All clear enough in a way.

 

But what puzzles me a little is exactly how she got into that position ?  It would seem odd that the Blacks would be going around grabbing random Brown sisters and saying "sign up or die " ; because recruiting someone who has no desire to serve your cause is surely unlikely to get you a useful asset - and in any case there seems to be no shortage of willing aspirants to the cause of The Dark , judging by the number Verin ultimately exposes in the list she hands to Egwene.  Also the timing re Tomas : did she only discover his commitment to the dark side when she bonded him ? (I'd imagine it would be impossible not to at that point)  Or was taking him on as Warder the way in which she offered to give him an (eventual) way out ?

 

All rather fussy details perhaps but as she is one of my favourite characters I would love to hear if anyone can provide any clarification ...

 

Veterans of the site , any comments ?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think it was not a "sign up or die" but more Verin was poking somewhere because of her curiosity and then would have been killed when caught except she convinced them she wanted to join, which was why she was poking about. 

 

About Tomás, not sure. That always seemed a little convenient to me, too, unless Tomás became her Warder after her oaths, but then how would she know he wanted out? Or did she meet a Darkfriend with regrets and was so curious that she bonded him to study his predicament further. I guess that would be in character. 

 

Sorry for an answer so lacking in details or insight 🙂

[Andra]

Bear in mind that some of this is not based on specific info written in any of the sources, but on the internal consistencies of what we know of Aes Sedai and Warders ...

 

1: Aes Sedai usually have MUCH longer lifespans than Warders.

2: Verin gave the impression she had been investigating the Black Ajah for decades. 

3: Given 1: and 2: above, she was almost certainly already inside before she took Tomas as her Warder.  Probably before he was even born.

4: Which means that, as is typical with any Sister investigating potential Warders, she knew enough about him to guess he would be a valuable ally before asking to bond him.  That he wanted to get out, but couldn't do it on his own, and would help her with that in mind.

 

Regarding her own circumstances, I would suspect it was her curiosity that brought her to the attention of other Black Sisters, and she was able to convince them that her curiosity was about wanting to join rather than to expose them.  That she probably gave them reason to think accepting her was better than killing her, though they couldn't have taken the chance of letting her go without binding her with their oaths.

[Figs and Mice]

That does all seem plausible...and sniffing around possible Black sisters without the sort of support that Pevara had in her operation was indeed likely to lead to her being put in a dangerous spot.  

 

But one snag : since she was bound by the Three Oaths not to lie , how would she have been able to convince the Blacks that she was actually willing to join their company ?

[Sabio]

Simple she wanted to save her life, so she joined.  Verin joined the Brown becuase she wanted to know everything.  The companion says she joined under "Duress" after investigating some rumors and tales which resulted in her nearly uncovering some members of the BA.  Seems like they pretty much told her join or die.  Normally they would torture you to find out what you knew and how you found them then dispose of you.  Chances are they understood what use she could be and made her an offer.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

She could talk around the Oaths perhaps, paltering details and making relative statements. The fact she took the Black Oaths rather than trying to escape could be seen as proof of her intent, and then she also could lie freely to back up her story after. 

 

It is rather convenient, but it could simply be that the Black Sisters did not anticipate that anyone would swear to the Shadow without meaning it, or that if they did, that they wouldn't get fully on board, their immortal soul and chances of rebirth now wholly depending on the Dark One. 

[Sabio]

When you know your life is on the line, I think it becomes easier to find a way to get around your oaths.  Verin is smart as we see how she was able to use the phrase up until an hour of their deaths (forget exact wording) to her advantage.  Once the BA approached her, she knew it was life or death, also depending on how a question is worded determines how one might speak around the oath.  A good example is when the BA were torturing to find out who was sent on the hunt to find the dragon, they asked which Aes Sedai were sent.  Siuan and Moiraine were just Accepted so their names weren't mentioned.  The BA thought only full Aes Sedai would be involved, had they asked for the names of everyone who knew Siuan and Moiriane would've probably been killed.  So how the question is worded determines alot.

 

If someone asks you if you want to join the BA normally you have to say no since you don't. But if you're asked and you also don't want to die is it a lie to then say yes?  If joining means living, then suddenly you want to join.  You think I have no choice I have to join now.

[Andra]

13 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

That does all seem plausible...and sniffing around possible Black sisters without the sort of support that Pevara had in her operation was indeed likely to lead to her being put in a dangerous spot.  

 

But one snag : since she was bound by the Three Oaths not to lie , how would she have been able to convince the Blacks that she was actually willing to join their company ?

Well, we know that Aes Sedai in general are accomplished at standing the truth on its head without actually "saying a word that is not true."  Verin at least as much as anyone else.  We also know that Verin had already taken the Black Oaths by the beginning of the series, yet I am only aware of a single instance where she said something that was definitively false prior to her conversation with Egwene.

 

In The Great Hunt, she told the hunters flat-out when she joined them that Moiraine had sent her.  Something we learn for a fact later was completely false.  But the circumstances are such that Moiraine doesn't know Verin said that.

 

Given all of that, I don't think it's any kind of deal-breaker to wonder how she convinced them she wanted to join without outright lying.  Hell, she could have even told the unvarnished truth and said she wanted to join the Black Ajah - just not why.

[Mailman]

16 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

That does all seem plausible...and sniffing around possible Black sisters without the sort of support that Pevara had in her operation was indeed likely to lead to her being put in a dangerous spot.  

 

But one snag : since she was bound by the Three Oaths not to lie , how would she have been able to convince the Blacks that she was actually willing to join their company ?

Do we have confirmation that she was full Aes Sedai when she was turned could she have been accepted?

[Sabio]

The WOT companion has Verin being raised to the Shawl in 875NE and becoming BA in 929NE.  As for the oaths, if she was backed into a corner and knew her options were death or joining, it wouldn't be a lie for her to say she wants to join.

[Figs and Mice]

Thanks for that timeline detail , Sabio.  I initially raised this query as was wondering if the companion (which I haven't accessed) had some more detail - or if either of the authors ever gave any further clues but I presume that timing info is about all there is ?  So we are free to speculate on the exact circumstances...

 

Seems to me most unlikely that she was directly approached by the blacks (a quiet bookish Brown doesn't strike me as an ideal candidate) . And if she had been caught actively investigating them I doubt there would have been any question of options , they'd have cut her throat immediately. So the most likely scenario to my eyes is that she accidentally stumbled upon some meeting or action of a group of Black sisters and was held and told "We can't let you leave here alive...unless perhaps you are prepared to swear to the Great Lord".  To which ultimatum Verin would only need to reply "Pretty clear options !  Ok , sign me up ! ". No need to say anything about her true beliefs.

 

Of course it still seems a rather dumb decision by the Blacks to just take on board someone who hasn't professed massive enthusiasm for the cause of her own volition - and of course it came back to bite them. But nobody says the Blacks are a particularly smart group of people : none of the ones we saw in the books achieved much success - except that they seem to have been quite effective in recruiting , judging by the surprisingly large % of current sisters eventually revealed to be on their books  😉

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Remember though that Sheriam joined largely for personal political reasons, not because she was a true believer. 

 

So to me it seems joining with an ulterior motive is definitely possible. 

[Sabio]

Sadly the Companion doesn't give a lot if info just "She joined under "Duress" after investigating some rumors and tales which resulted in her nearly uncovering some members of the BA."  My guess is she caught their attention, so they started to watch her, then when she was getting close to uncovering some members, they decided it was time to approach her.  Then she would have prove her commitment, usually involving murdering someone like a friend etc.

 

The Companion is a pretty good read if you're really into the history of the WOT.  Shows how much thought RJ put into the world and characters.

[Mailman]

The Black Ajah also seemed to place huge faith in the strength of the oaths required to bind themselves to the Dark One.

 

Verin herself was only actually able to betray them to an outsider after effectively killing herself. That is a big step for anyone especially considering that your soul is bound to being drawn to the Dark One after death.

 

It also plays into the theme that Rand throws at the Dark One near the end that the Dark One was not able to inspire his followers to sacrifice for the cause and that all their endeavours basically boiled down to self-interest. So the choice of death or join may not have been considered particularly risky.

Edited Wednesday at 11:27 PM by Mailman