Why did Galad win the sword fight?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm afraid I simply disagree with Ealdur's claim that Lews Therin's presence is the result of taint-sickness.  The taint simply seems to exacerbate pre-existing conditions, or expose one to the potential for insanity already inside.  That is why each channeler's madness follows a different path.  The taint increased Rand's susceptibility to being influenced by Lews Therin (which is why completely subconscious influences became overt conversations and conscious memory sharing) but the taint did not create Lews Therin's presence.

 

But the point about Rand's soul having a natural talent for many of these things is quite valid.  Both the soul's natural proclivities and the presence of a previous incarnation's persona are factors (among many others) in Rand's unnaturally quick development, both as a swordsman and a channeler.

[Darkness Incarnated]

My well of arguments is dry, it should be illegal to have one as big as yours ;D

Seriously though, I didn't know that the taint doesn't cause madness per se. Why do you think it acts faster on some? I've never managed to understand that. We've already hijacked the thread anyway, so...

;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why do you think it acts faster on some?

 

Because some people are naturally more likely to go mad than others, so it has less work to do.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Didn't expect that comment to spark such a debate.

 

Just to clarify.  I was not implying that Rand didn't have the talent to reach blademaster on his own.  Just that his learning curve was accelerated because of being Lews Therin reincarnated.

[Darkness Incarnated]

I can agree with that. It's just that my hair stands when Rand's feats are handed over to LTT (not in this thread by the way, others).

Not to mention I felt like debating today

;D

[lou]

It wasn't loyalty to family, it was the need to do what he saw as right.  That is why Elayne was so anxious to get out of there.  She didn't be around when Galad was faced with the choice between 2 rights.

 

The one to see is sister and her friend safe and back were they belonged, and the law that said since they were connected to the Tower they were Darkfriends, thus under sentence of death.  With Galad, I suspect, and Elayne likely did to, that Law trumps Family.

 

galad had already chosen elayne over the whitecloaks, just like he chose avenging morgase over his position with the whitecloaks. this was clearly loyalty.

[Breaker of Light]

galad won the sword fight cause he was good.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Valda was more skilled.  Galad was more determined.  Valda had Gawyn beat.  Galad won for the same reason Lan beat Ryne in New Spring:  The Novel.  An overconfident opponent and a refusal to give up until you are dead.

 

Edit:  Fixed underlining

[Digbe]

Any non-channeling characters in Randland that could kill a gholem?

 

We don't even know that it is possible to kill a gholam yet, especially without the OP, so I would assume no...

 

Anyways, Digbe, I was referring to Hammar and Coulin, not Couladin. Coulin is the other blademaster who trained warders.

 

 

I was just throwing Coulidan's name out there as an example to compare fight scenarios... thats all.  Would be interesting to know where he ranked(Tam) and trained by whom?  Maybe Tam was trained by the same blademaster(s) as Hammarand Coulin?

[lou]

The voice hadn't started by that point. He became a blademaster by killing Turak in TGH, LTT didn't appear in rand's head till later. More likely the effect of his being ta'veren made him a better sword fighter than he would otherwise have been.

 

Well, there are indications that Lews Therin's unconscious was present long before the voice spoke.  Rand's instinctive channeling at the Eye, and in Tear, almost have to have their dual source in Lews Therin and ta'veren-ness.

 

Rand's subconscious is enormously complicated.  His quick development is a result of a combination of excellent teaching (from both Tam and Lan ... Tam's concentration technique should not be underestimated here), good natural talent, the right physical genetics, a healthy dose of ta'veren, AND having a blademaster in his subconscious.  More than just a blademaster, the man who turned the "sport" of swordfighting back into a true martial art (according to Be'lal, anyway).

robert is correct, of course.

note that rand was hailed as lews therin by the heroes of the horn....LTT was there, even then.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I'm afraid I simply disagree with Ealdur's claim that Lews Therin's presence is the result of taint-sickness.  The taint simply seems to exacerbate pre-existing conditions, or expose one to the potential for insanity already inside.  That is why each channeler's madness follows a different path.  The taint increased Rand's susceptibility to being influenced by Lews Therin (which is why completely subconscious influences became overt conversations and conscious memory sharing) but the taint did not create Lews Therin's presence.

 

But the point about Rand's soul having a natural talent for many of these things is quite valid.  Both the soul's natural proclivities and the presence of a previous incarnation's persona are factors (among many others) in Rand's unnaturally quick development, both as a swordsman and a channeler.

 

No, I wasn't saying Lews Therin wasn't present with Rand the whole time... What I think is that each soul is impressed upon with the memories, skills, and character of the other lives it has lived. The taint simply breaks down these barriers, allowing it to function like different entities.

 

Also, I don't understand why it is called madness. For all intents and purposes, if the channeler Rand had been in the Age of Legends hadn't gone mad, mightn't it have been nothing but helpful for the barrier between memories to be worn away? Think of the abilities you would have...

 

The only things I would see as a side effect would be the other entity sometimes trying to gain control from you, thus resulting in a constant struggle, unless some kind of accord could be made.

 

Other than that, is part of the sickness Rand is experiencing the result of the madness, or is it purely the link with Moridin?

 

Because if the madness does not even make you dizzy, I can't see why it wouldn't be beneficial to a certain extent.

 

Actually, I would suppose that for channelers in the Age of Legends, whose previous incarnations had not gone made from the taint, would actually progress into the madness so far that they would have several conflicting voices and memories in their head, thus making it impossible for them to think or see clearly, exactly as Lews Therin was in the EotW prologue.

[Mr Ares]

robert is correct, of course.

note that rand was hailed as lews therin by the heroes of the horn....LTT was there, even then.

Doesn't that strike anyone else as a bit impolite? Rather than address rand, they address a subconcious personality. Unless they just didn't see too much of a distinction. Hopefully, next time they meet, Hawkwing will say sorry, and admit his bad manners.

 

Oh, and cwest, Darkness, RAW, this must rank among the politest resolutions to a debate on the board, at least recently. We should be congratulated for keeping things unusually civil, and coming to the conclusion that we were all on pretty much the same page - LTT helped a bit, but Rand was the main factor in him becoming a blademaster.

 

I'm afraid I simply disagree with Ealdur's claim that Lews Therin's presence is the result of taint-sickness.  The taint simply seems to exacerbate pre-existing conditions, or expose one to the potential for insanity already inside.  That is why each channeler's madness follows a different path.  The taint increased Rand's susceptibility to being influenced by Lews Therin (which is why completely subconscious influences became overt conversations and conscious memory sharing) but the taint did not create Lews Therin's presence.

 

But the point about Rand's soul having a natural talent for many of these things is quite valid.  Both the soul's natural proclivities and the presence of a previous incarnation's persona are factors (among many others) in Rand's unnaturally quick development, both as a swordsman and a channeler.

 

No, I wasn't saying Lews Therin wasn't present with Rand the whole time... What I think is that each soul is impressed upon with the memories, skills, and character of the other lives it has lived. The taint simply breaks down these barriers, allowing it to function like different entities.

 

Also, I don't understand why it is called madness. For all intents and purposes, if the channeler Rand had been in the Age of Legends hadn't gone mad, mightn't it have been nothing but helpful for the barrier between memories to be worn away? Think of the abilities you would have...

 

The only things I would see as a side effect would be the other entity sometimes trying to gain control from you, thus resulting in a constant struggle, unless some kind of accord could be made.

 

Other than that, is part of the sickness Rand is experiencing the result of the madness, or is it purely the link with Moridin?

 

Because if the madness does not even make you dizzy, I can't see why it wouldn't be beneficial to a certain extent.

 

Actually, I would suppose that for channelers in the Age of Legends, whose previous incarnations had not gone made from the taint, would actually progress into the madness so far that they would have several conflicting voices and memories in their head, thus making it impossible for them to think or see clearly, exactly as Lews Therin was in the EotW prologue.

The sickness is the link to Moridin, or at least dates its appearance to the links' beginning. As for the madness, a complete lack of privacy, and someone occasionally trying to take control of your body are not the best states to live in for your continued good health. And what accord could you come to? Presumably, making up for what kept the other personality back in the first place, which could be difficult if not impossible, for one thing, and could prevent you getting on with your own life for another. I don't really see how having another voicwe in your head could be anything other than a bad thing in the long run, even if they did occasionally give you some good advice in the short term.

 

On another note, can people direct me to any references regarding LTT's skill with a blade. I remember Be'lal saying they turned used swords for combat, but where does it actually say how good he was? Can we assume he was as good as Be'lal? Better? Worse?

[Darkness Incarnated]

Isn't it Bel'al who told Rand that he was better in the AoL? Though I can't remember where LTT is mentioned as a blademaster. And I wonder, since it was a sport, was their level of expertise comparable to that of this Age? I would give today's blademasters an edge over those from the AoL.

On Rand being addressed as LTT by the heroes, I believe it's because that's maybe how he's most familiar to them, after all the name Rand al'Thor is virtually meaningless to them, as compared to Lews Therin Telamon. I truly saw no intended disrespect from Hawking. On that note, I've always wondered how the heroes knew Rand was LTT reborn. 

 

[lou]

i dont believe that there were any "blademasters" in the AOL as such.it was just a sport.

i dont know why the heroes of the horn wouldnt be familiar with LTT reborn as rand althor, birgitte seems to spend an awful lot of her time in Tel spying on the goings on, why wouldnt the rest of the heroes do much the same? nothing else going on but the waiting.....

 

[Mr Ares]

Isn't it Bel'al who told Rand that he was better in the AoL? Though I can't remember where LTT is mentioned as a blademaster. And I wonder, since it was a sport, was their level of expertise comparable to that of this Age? I would give today's blademasters an edge over those from the AoL.

On Rand being addressed as LTT by the heroes, I believe it's because that's maybe how he's most familiar to them, after all the name Rand al'Thor is virtually meaningless to them, as compared to Lews Therin Telamon. I truly saw no intended disrespect from Hawking. On that note, I've always wondered how the heroes knew Rand was LTT reborn.

Be'lal did tell Rand that he (Rand) was better in the AOL, but don't forget, Rand wasn't exactly in the best state for a swordfight - he had just come a long distance on foot, and climbed his way into a fortress, and had to deal with Ishamael the whole distance, he was pretty close to madness, and Be'lal had just been sitting tight waiting for rand to show up. So when the exhausted guy shows up, and the other guy says "you're not as good as you used to be", bear that in mind. Encyclopedia WOT lists no reference to LTT being a blademaster, and Be'lal is mentioned as a master of the sword in TDR 50, along with Sammael, but no one else. In the fight between Be'lal and Rand, neither is explicitly stated to be a blademaster, although both make use of Heron mark OP swords - but Rand specifically notes he is not entitled to the heron mark. No mention of LTT being a blademaster is made at the time, simply that he was better than Rand shows himself to be at that time. Briefly on the subject of Heron mark swords, has this always indicated that the wielder is a blademaster, or is this a later invention, post-Breaking, for example? If no-one can come up with a reference to LTT being a blademaster, why do so many people on here say he was? Reference, please. On Hawkwing referring to Rand as LTT, I didn't see any disrespect there either, I was just making a joke about young lou's response that being addressed as such means that LTT was present even then. He wasn't, except as a dormant part of Rand's soul, but saying that addressing him as LTT proved he was there, I was was just saying that that would be rude.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Mr Ares, I as well never saw that fight between Rand and Bel'al as anything close to fair or balanced. Rand had just climbed up a wall Mat thought 'even Rand wouldn't attempt to scale' (approximate words); after hundreds of miles on foot. His wound was open, and as you said, Ishamael had messed up his head. He was literally mentally and physically exhausted, yet managed to put up a fight. Had he been in prime condition, he would have given Bel'al a run for his money.

[Littel me]

The fact that the exist sowrd made by the OP, Tam's and Rand new one from king Laman, with the heron on makes it clear that it was a symbol used in AoL. I don't know if it was as a symbol for bladmasters, but the what was it used for?.

 

As i remember it LTT is mention as a bladmaster i the books, but I can't recall where.     

[lou]

i love it when you call me young lou ;D

[Mr Ares]

The fact that the exist sowrd made by the OP, Tam's and Rand new one from king Laman, with the heron on makes it clear that it was a symbol used in AoL. I don't know if it was as a symbol for bladmasters, but the what was it used for?.

 

As i remember it LTT is mention as a bladmaster i the books, but I can't recall where.

The last bit it exactly my point. Everyone seems to tremember that LTT was referred to as a blademaster, but the Encyclopaedia doesn't have any reference, that I saw, and no-one can provide one. And while, yes, we have seen swords from the AOL with the heron that does not, in and of itself, mean that these people were blademasters. For example, it could refer to a commander, while enlisted men only have plain OP forged swords. IIRC Lan's sword lacks the heron mark, but he uses it as it was the hereditary sword of Malkieri Kings, and is OP forged. One question would be when was the organisation of blademastery founded? During the War? After the Breaking? Did it predate the War, and was used by sporstsmen of a certain calibre? If someone with a better recollection of the details would care to provide either a quote or a reference, or an RJ quote, then these questions can be answered, but until then can people stop coming out with things like "LTT was the first blademaster". As far as I can remember, the only thing said on the subject is that LTT and DLC took a nonviolent sport ("swords") and "learned to kill with it", with doesn't really imply a level of skill, nor does it imply an organisation like the blademasters being in existence at the time.

 

i love it when you call me young lou ;D

At least someone does.

[Guest cwestervelt]

If anyone mistakenly has been refering to Lews Therin as a Blademaster, it started with my comments.  I don't think anyone said anything about that prior to that point.  If you need to get out the torch and pitchfork I'm right here.

 

I cannot provide a reference to anything that states right out that Lews Therin was a blademaster.  It is simply a matter of how he is refered to by the Forsaken.  The comments about taking the game of swords and learning to kill with it included.  Unless I am completely mistake, several of the Forsaken were acknowledged blademasters, and they appeared, at least to me, to have a high regard for Lews Therin's ability with the sword.

[Digbe]

Please allow me to deviate off-topic a little while I pose this question:

 

 

Is Tam a blademaster?  and Whatever Tam is, where and by whom did he come across this sword?  If it was handed down to him during the war against the Aiel, shouldn't there be some written documentation of the more elite forces who served Andor and or/whichever army he was fighting for?

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Tam fought for Illian.  And yes, there are probably records that traced the sword.  As a Power forged weapon, the Tower may even have a record themselves for all we know.  Something allowed Moiraine to fill in the gaps between her guesses.

 

Tam is an officially acknowledged Blademaster.  Moiraine fills in the details for us at some point, early in The Great Hunt I think.  When Tam left the Two Rivers, he went to Illian where he rose to the rank of 2nd Captain of the Companions (I may have that a little wrong).  During his military career, he officially achieved the rank of Blademaster.  Along the way he also met and married Kari al'Thor.  Apparently they were unable to have children of there own, and unofficially adopted Rand after Tam found Rand beside Tigraine's body in the snow.  They then returned to the Two Rivers and passed Rand off as their own son to the majority  of people.  They told a few people, like the Wisdom, the truth.)

 

Ok, the last bit of that was more than a little off topic...

[lou]

the only thing i could find on the history of the  heron marked blades:

TBWB

power wrought blades

during the war of power many weopons were made using the one power. amoung these were very special swords made so they would not shatter or break, and would never lose thier edge. some, made for soldiers,bore no special mark. the sword of the malkieri kings was one one of these. others were made for lord-generals, and bore a heron, or other mark deep within the metal.TODAY these heron marked blades are very rare and are awarded only to those skilled enough to be given the title of blademaster.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

If anyone mistakenly has been refering to Lews Therin as a Blademaster, it started with my comments.  I don't think anyone said anything about that prior to that point.  If you need to get out the torch and pitchfork I'm right here.

 

I cannot provide a reference to anything that states right out that Lews Therin was a blademaster.  It is simply a matter of how he is refered to by the Forsaken.  The comments about taking the game of swords and learning to kill with it included.  Unless I am completely mistake, several of the Forsaken were acknowledged blademasters, and they appeared, at least to me, to have a high regard for Lews Therin's ability with the sword.

You're responsible!? *lynches cwestervelt* If they have a high regard for LTT's abilities, then he was probably good, but if blademasters were not recognized in the same way during the War, then he may not be considered one in the way the term is understood during the books. In the earlier quote I referenced (TDR 50) Bel'al and Sammael were referred to as swordmasters rather than blademasters - possibly implying that while they may have had an equvalent level of skill to Lan, Ryne, etc. the organisation of blademasters did not exist then - they were just good with a sword, rather than being in possession of some special title saying they were good with a sword. Also, when did you make these comments,as this is something I have seen for a while? And can you find any quotes that show a level of respect for LTT's swordfighting ability?

 

the only thing i could find on the history of the  heron marked blades:

TBWB

power wrought blades

during the war of power many weopons were made using the one power. amoung these were very special swords made so they would not shatter or break, and would never lose thier edge. some, made for soldiers,bore no special mark. the sword of the malkieri kings was one one of these. others were made for lord-generals, and bore a heron, or other mark deep within the metal.TODAY these heron marked blades are very rare and are awarded only to those skilled enough to be given the title of blademaster.

Thank you, young lou. If there is nothing in the books to contradict this, the I think it is fairly safe to say that the title of blademaster is something that originated post-Breaking, and that while some of the AOL guys may have that level of skill, as they haven't done what is necessary to be recognised as blademasters, they cannot, strictly speaking, be recognizes as such, although they may have an equivalent level of skill. Certainly, if such a title did exist, then the Heron mark was not used to mark people as such.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm wasn't trying to take responsibility for saying Lews Therin was a blademaster on any other thread.  Just this one.  Looking back at the thread, I may be innocent of the charges I filed against myself.

 

I know I made reference to Lews Therin being a blademaster on one of these threads.  I thought it was this one, but I don't see the post.  After a while, they all start to run together on me.