S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

DigificWriter · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 4:38 PM, Elder_Haman said:

How does that make their interactions in Rand’s dreams consensual?

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Since he's fully aware within his own dreams that he's interacting with the real Lanfear, he has the option of rejecting her advances and doesn't.

Elder_Haman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 4:45 PM, DigificWriter said:

Since he's fully aware within his own dreams that he's interacting with the real Lanfear, he has the option of rejecting her advances and doesn't.

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So Rand is responsible for what happens in his dreams even though Lanfear is uninvited and actively manipulating Rand’s subconscious? Yeah, no. Sorry.
You’re welcome to your opinion, but I find your argument entirely unconvincing.

Ralph · April 25

Slightly different topic -

Do you think Rand was deliberately trying to get Egwene to leave him to protect her?

Skipp · April 25

While I don't think Rand is entirely blameless in his interactions with Lanfear I also don't think he is outright cheating on Egwene. Rand is clearly being groomed and manipulated by Lanfear and we cannot discount that. He has no choice in her visiting him and she is clearly more in power in the dream that him.

There is also the fact that while Egwene and Rand got back together out of habit Rand clearly says they have not talked about it. Rand and Egwene's romantic interactions in season 3 are often very awkward, especially the kiss they share in episode 5. In episode 1 when they are discussing Egwene's Arc Adventures they are talking to each other but are filmed in a way to show that neither are really interacting with each other. Rafe said this was an idea from Josha and Maddy.

So while they are technically together I think it is also safe to say neither are really committed to it and are only there for much needed support for recent trauma.

SinisterDeath · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:23 PM, Skipp said:

So while they are technically together I think it is also safe to say neither are really committed to it and are only there for much needed support for recent trauma.

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On 4/25/2025 at 5:23 PM, Skipp said:

There is also the fact that while Egwene and Rand got back together out of habit Rand clearly says they have not talked about it.

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These two are related.

Egwene barely talked about her traumatic dreams about Renna with Rand. From a relationship angle, any time they attempted to get intimate, she would pull away. (This was by Lanfear's design).

From Rand's perspective, Egwene's been pulling away from Rand, Physically and Emotionally for... Months.

And then in his Dreams, who's there for him physically and emotionally? (Lanfear).

Rand and Egwene have been effectively "broken up" since they left Tar Valon, they just never... said the words, because they don't talk, and they don't communicate.

Had they communicated, Rand would have Learned from Egwene a LOT earlier.. that Lanfear was screwing with her Dreams... Had he learned about that, he would have confronted Lanfear in his own dreams a LOT earlier, and then Egwene may never have ever learned that Rand was having his "dream fling" with Lanfear... Course, Rand may well have Died in his sleep.

Ultimately though, from a relationship standpoint. Rand/Egwene are in their Early twenties.

Did Egwene actually believe Rand was going to be her one and only true love for the rest of her life? Or did she just want her cake and eat it to?

It takes a special kind of love for one another, for two people to accept each others Traumas, specially in your Twenties... to get through a rough patch of limited emotional and physical intimacy as you work through your Trauma so you can be emotionally and physically intimate again.

Neither Egwene or Rand are ready for that right now... Specially not with the Gaslighting Queen of the Dark Lanfear actively interfering in both their lives, and making their traumas worse.

Tldr: For everyone reading this. OMG a bunch of 20 something year olds, acting like a bunch of 20 somethings when they aren't communicating and being physically intimate and start doing stupid shit because they're young dumb and full of stupid.

Elder_Haman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:23 PM, Skipp said:

So while they are technically together I think it is also safe to say neither are really committed to it and are only there for much needed support for recent trauma.

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Exactly. For all intents and purposes, their relationship ended on the hillside in S1E1. The romance they have had in the show is clearly the last twitches of a dying relationship. And I think they managed to do it in a way that made sense and preserves the idea that they will always love each other despite not being in love with each other.

Skipp · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:39 PM, SinisterDeath said:

These two are related.

Egwene barely talked about her traumatic dreams about Renna with Rand. From a relationship angle, any time they attempted to get intimate, she would pull away. (This was by Lanfear's design).

From Rand's perspective, Egwene's been pulling away from Rand, Physically and Emotionally for... Months.

And then in his Dreams, who's there for him physically and emotionally? (Lanfear).

Rand and Egwene have been effectively "broken up" since they left Tar Valon, they just never... said the words, because they don't talk, and they don't communicate.

Had they communicated, Rand would have Learned from Egwene a LOT earlier.. that Lanfear was screwing with her Dreams... Had he learned about that, he would have confronted Lanfear in his own dreams a LOT earlier, and then Egwene may never have ever learned that Rand was having his "dream fling" with Lanfear... Course, Rand may well have Died in his sleep.

Ultimately though, from a relationship standpoint. Rand/Egwene are in their Early twenties.

Did Egwene actually believe Rand was going to be her one and only true love for the rest of her life? Or did she just want her cake and eat it to?

It takes a special kind of love for one another, for two people to accept each others Traumas, specially in your Twenties... to get through a rough patch of limited emotional and physical intimacy as you work through your Trauma so you can be emotionally and physically intimate again.

Neither Egwene or Rand are ready for that right now... Specially not with the Gaslighting Queen of the Dark Lanfear actively interfering in both their lives, and making their traumas worse.

Tldr: For everyone reading this. OMG a bunch of 20 something year olds, acting like a bunch of 20 somethings when they aren't communicating and being physically intimate and start doing stupid shit because they're young dumb and full of stupid.

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Excellent Post.

This also plays into Rand's arguement during their breakup in episode 6. Rand says that Egwene and he have not had a moment alone since Rhuidean, he also brings up that Egwene always drops him when she finds something more interesting. While there is a lot to break down in that statement(Egwene trying to survive lanfear attacks etc..) we will focus on one thing.

It seems to be implied that Egwene has not asked about Rand's trip into Rhuidean and how he is dealing with it. I don't say this to knock Egwene, she is one of my favourite book characters but it goes to show differences between her and Rand.

Rand is more empathetic wanting to know how Egwene is feeling about her recent events(Women's Circle ceremony, Seanchan Trauma etc...). Egwene is more insular and wants to deal with everything herself. Egwene tends to confide more in mentors than partners. Her relationship is Gawyn is similar.

Ultimately, yes, they just do not communicate with each other at all.

Edited April 25 by Skipp
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Skipp · April 25

~~I am excusing Rand for his lack of communication.~~ Him not talking about Lanfear, even if it was to protect Egwene from Lanfear, needs to be talked about.

Edit!

"I am NOT excusing Rand"

Edited April 25 by Skipp

Elder_Haman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:57 PM, Skipp said:

I am excusing Rand for his lack of communication. Him not talking about Lanfear, even if it was to protect Egwene from Lanfear, needs to be talked about.

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This is a good take.

SinisterDeath · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:57 PM, Skipp said:

I am excusing Rand for his lack of communication. Him not talking about Lanfear, even if it was to protect Egwene from Lanfear, needs to be talked about.

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On that front, I think we only have to look at Domestic Abuse stats to see that 97% (women) leave their partner and return multiple times, while only 67% leave and returned once.

Now obviously, we can apply the same thing for Egwene when it comes to failing to talk about Lanfear (Domestic Violence) in her dreams with Rand.

But I think if people are going to forgive Egwene for failing to talk about Lanfear's abuse in her Dreams, they have to forgive Rand for failing to communicate about Lanfear's grooming of Rand as well. (also a form of emotional abuse)

DigificWriter · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:23 PM, Skipp said:

He has no choice in her visiting him

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That's not what we were shown. The show makes it clear that, as noted, Rand is fully aware that he's dreaming of and interacting with the real Lanfear. If she were entering his dreams uninvited, such would not be the case.

SinisterDeath · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 6:11 PM, DigificWriter said:

On 4/25/2025 at 5:23 PM, Skipp said:

He has no choice in her visiting him

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That's not what we were shown. The show makes it clear that, as noted, Rand is fully aware that he's dreaming of and interacting with the real Lanfear. If she were entering his dreams uninvited, such would not be the case.

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Yes he's aware during the dream, that doesn't mean she's incapable of intruding in on him during his dream, which is what Skipp said. Lanfear is able to waltz into his dream, whether he's aware he's dreaming or not, whether she's invited or uninvited.

That was the point of that scene with Egwene in Episode 8. He needed her help to expel Lanfear from his Dream.

Skipp · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 5:57 PM, Skipp said:

~~I am excusing Rand for his lack of communication.~~ Him not talking about Lanfear, even if it was to protect Egwene from Lanfear, needs to be talked about.

Edit!

"I am NOT excusing Rand"

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Sorry for the mistake there. I was meaning to say that he should have been communicating about what was going on with Lanfear. I suppose he did tell Moiraine that she had been visiting his dreams.

Elder_Haman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 6:28 PM, Skipp said:

Sorry for the mistake there. I was meaning to say that he should have been communicating about what was going on with Lanfear. I suppose he did tell Moiraine that she had been visiting his dreams.

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I knew what you meant!!!

Edited April 25 by Elder_Haman

Elglin · April 25

Let me cry out loud: this is not the book Rand!

After S1, he broke all ties and tried to vanish. That includes breaking up the relationship with Egwene which, at that point, was even more dead than at a comparable point (end of EotW) in the books.

Then, he met Selene, admittedly in milder circumstances than in TGH. And... she was caring, understanding and etcetera. Sure, with lots of ulterior motive, but Lanfear did love LTT (in her own way) and, in the show, does love Rand (in her own way) without calling him LTT at every opportunity (because show viewers would be mightily confused otherwise).

Furthermore, if you judge by the actions of everyone involved across S2, Lanfear, ironically, is Rand's truest ally. She is way more subtle about putting him on the leash, she is of more help than Moiraine and Siuan combined... and she's more helping and more honest. Sure, she has her interest in constant view, but so does everyone else.

Until Rand learns of Lanfear's torturing Egwene in her dreams, he does not have a reason to cross her or break up with her. Sure, she manipulates him and plays him, but this only means that she succeeds where Moiraine fails, ironically, because Lanfear cares more for him.

Should he have told anyone about his regular TAR makeout sessions? Why on Earth? At this point, he's got no one close who is more trustworthy than Lanfear herself. And everyone would freak out. And those sessions are both nice and useful.

To be honest, the conclusion that "you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her fervent lover" would be much more appropriate for the show version of characters than whatever we got. Well, this comes from the same studio that made the freaking Sauron the most likeable character in Rings of Power, so I guess we all get what we pay for.

Elder_Haman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 9:09 PM, Elglin said:

he broke all ties and tried to vanish.

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Like at the beginning of tDR?

On 4/25/2025 at 9:09 PM, Elglin said:

Furthermore, if you judge by the actions of everyone involved across S2, Lanfear, ironically, is Rand's truest ally.

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In what way? Sure she's helping him. But only so he will turn to the dark. Does that make her an ally? Or a viper? Isn't that an interesting question?

On 4/25/2025 at 9:09 PM, Elglin said:

Sure, she has her interest in constant view, but so does everyone else.

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I'm sorry, but who else has an interest in Rand turning to the Dark? Ishamael? The Forsaken?

On 4/25/2025 at 9:09 PM, Elglin said:

she succeeds where Moiraine fails, ironically, because Lanfear cares more for him.

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No. No. No. No. Lanfear cares only for herself. Rand/LTT is secondary to her desire for power.

You're certainly right that some of Rand's arc has changed. But you're all twisted up about Lanfear in the show. It's been done perfectly because - as I have said many, many, many times on these forums - during the Last Battle, you want the audience not knowing whether Rand will choose her (or whether she will choose Rand). That's where the dramatic tension lies.

SinisterDeath · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 9:09 PM, Elglin said:

Until Rand learns of Lanfear's torturing Egwene in her dreams, he does not have a reason to cross her or break up with her. Sure, she manipulates him and plays him, but this only means that she succeeds where Moiraine fails, ironically, because Lanfear cares more for him.

Should he have told anyone about his regular TAR makeout sessions? Why on Earth? At this point, he's got no one close who is more trustworthy than Lanfear herself. And everyone would freak out. And those sessions are both nice and useful.

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Sounds to me like Lanfear was trying use her manipulation tactics to make Rand Codependent on her. 😉

Skipp · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Like at the beginning of tDR?

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And attempted to do at the beginning of tGH

Mailman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 4:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Rand has no training in the dream. His dreams are simply dreams. It is Rand’s subconscious that is being manipulated.

Dreaming about cheating on your spouse is not the same as cheating on your spouse.

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Rand is aware that the dreams are more than just his imagination and that he is in fact interacting with the real Lanfear.

Elder_Haman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 11:52 PM, Mailman said:

Rand is aware that the dreams are more than just his imagination and that he is in fact interacting with the real Lanfear.

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Does he have any choice in the matter?

Mailman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 4:49 PM, Elder_Haman said:

So Rand is responsible for what happens in his dreams even though Lanfear is uninvited and actively manipulating Rand’s subconscious? Yeah, no. Sorry.
You’re welcome to your opinion, but I find your argument entirely unconvincing.

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Lanfear uses her abilities to share a dream with Rand but he hardly appears to actively want her to leave and at no point do we get any indication that she is forcing him to do anything against his will within the dream.

You can claim that she is manipulating him but at no point is that actually shown.

Mailman · April 25

On 4/25/2025 at 11:55 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Does he have any choice in the matter?

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No she can enter his dream without his choice that does not show she has manipulated him while in the dream. Apart from with words.

Edited April 25 by Mailman

Elder_Haman · April 26

On 4/25/2025 at 11:57 PM, Mailman said:

Lanfear uses her abilities to share a dream with Rand

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Correct. Can he expel her?

On 4/25/2025 at 11:57 PM, Mailman said:

he hardly appears to actively want her to leave

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Correct. Is this his conscious self? Or his subconscious self? Does the fact that he remembers the dream mean he was able to exercise control while inside it? To state it a different way, what evidence is there that Rand knows how to exercise control within the dream?

On 4/25/2025 at 11:57 PM, Mailman said:

You can claim that she is manipulating him but at no point is that actually shown.

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You’re joking, right? Their entire relationship consists of Lanfear manipulating him.

On 4/25/2025 at 11:58 PM, Mailman said:

that does not show she has manipulated him while in the dream.

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Nor does it show that he consciously chose to do sexy time with Lanfear in the dream.

On 4/25/2025 at 11:58 PM, Mailman said:

Apart from with words.

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How else do you manipulate someone?

Mailman · April 26

On 4/26/2025 at 12:06 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Correct. Can he expel her?

Correct. Is this his conscious self? Or his subconscious self? Does the fact that he remembers the dream mean he was able to exercise control while inside it? To state it a different way, what evidence is there that Rand knows how to exercise control within the dream?

You’re joking, right? Their entire relationship consists of Lanfear manipulating him.

Nor does it show that he consciously chose to do sexy time with Lanfear in the dream.

How else do you manipulate someone?

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How else? Ummm with the power.

Rand was lucid in the dream and remembered them perfectly on exit.

I thought you were alleging that she was using the power on him.

No he could not expel her but she convinced him to do the things he did by simply talking to him not through the power or through force.

Edited April 26 by Mailman

Elder_Haman · April 26

On 4/26/2025 at 12:11 AM, Mailman said:

No he could not expel her but she convinced him to do the things he did by simply talking to him not through the power or through force.

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This doesn’t mean he was cheating on Egwene.

S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

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