S3E6 - The Shadow in the Night

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/10/2025 at 5:27 PM, Mirefox said:

Why not?

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Because she was already a sworn Darkfriend when she came to the Tower.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/10/2025 at 5:30 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Because she was already a sworn Darkfriend when she came to the Tower.

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But the oath still bind her.  “I will not be a darkfriend” is not an oath.  That’s just completely made up lore pulled from the ether to justify the show’s writing.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/10/2025 at 5:33 PM, Mirefox said:

But the oath still bind her.  “I will not be a darkfriend” is not an oath.  That’s just completely made up lore pulled from the ether to justify the show’s writing.

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No it isn’t. Nobody made up any lore. And nothing about the show’s writing in this area needs to be “justified”. There’s been no discussion whatsoever about how the Black Ajah avoids the oaths. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/10/2025 at 5:33 PM, Mirefox said:

But the oath still bind her.  “I will not be a darkfriend” is not an oath.  That’s just completely made up lore pulled from the ether to justify the show’s writing.

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Opinions about the decision to do so notwithstanding, the show established that the main signifier of an Aes Sedai Sister being a Darkfriend/Black Ajah is being able to break the Three Oaths, which is something that Liandrin - having come to the White Tower already Sworn to the Shadow - would've been able - and likely incentivized - to do almost immediately upon being 'raised to the Shawl'.

 

So even if Liandrin swearing the Three Oaths of the Aes Sedai did override her Dark Oaths, she would've been almost immediately incentivized - likely by Ishy himself in her dreams or by anyone in the Tower who was likewise Sworn to the Shadow already - to break or otherwise find a way to subvert the former, thus rendering her unbound by them.

[Jaysen Gore]

1. To speak no word that is not true

2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

 

There is nothing in those oaths that someone with years of experience hiding what she is and trained to Aes Sedai word parsing would force Black sisters to reveal who they are. And apparently, the White Tower was too stupid to have  "Are you a darkfriend?" the first question asked after swearing the oaths, they would be able to hide it until they could remove their oaths and swear the new ones. Especially given that in the books, we know of at least 3 people with authority to get to the Oath Rod were Black.

 

The other interesting thing - for a Black Sister, one could argue that anything she does with the power to hide that she is Black is justified under the Oaths in the extreme defense of her life.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/10/2025 at 6:18 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Opinions about the decision to do so notwithstanding, the show established that the main signifier of an Aes Sedai Sister being a Darkfriend/Black Ajah is being able to break the Three Oaths, which is something that Liandrin - having come to the White Tower already Sworn to the Shadow - would've been able - and likely incentivized - to do almost immediately upon being 'raised to the Shawl'.

 

So even if Liandrin swearing the Three Oaths of the Aes Sedai did override her Dark Oaths, she would've been almost immediately incentivized - likely by Ishy himself in her dreams or by anyone in the Tower who was likewise Sworn to the Shadow already - to break or otherwise find a way to subvert the former, thus rendering her unbound by them.

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The books offer an answer.  There isn’t a problem with the black ajah seemingly breaking the oath.  My issue is someone making up some excuse that because they are darkfriends, or because they really, really want to, they can just override the oath rod.  That would be a dumb as them saying is a Damane really really wanted to she could get herself out of bondage…*crickets*

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/10/2025 at 9:00 PM, Mirefox said:

That would be a dumb as them saying is a Damane really really wanted to she could get herself out of bondage

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But that's not what happened. Egwene convinced herself that the collar was not a weapon. And then she just out-toughed the damane. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/10/2025 at 10:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

But that's not what happened. Egwene convinced herself that the collar was not a weapon. And then she just out-toughed the damane. 

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Lipstick on a pig.  But hey, girl power.

[Mailman]

  On 4/10/2025 at 10:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

But that's not what happened. Egwene convinced herself that the collar was not a weapon. And then she just out-toughed the damane. 

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LOL She convinced herself that hanging someone was not an attack. They broke the rules it was not some clever ruse they simply broke the rules. Which say it together class makes it bad writing.

[Turin Turambar]

It could be argued that just as she had to convince herself that the pitcher could not be used as a weapon,  you could convince yourself that the collar as not a weapon.  It does not intrinsically cause physical damage. Once it is applied and she became Renna's Sul'dam, it was a tool. Even according to Seanchan ideology Damane are trained to serve, not "punished". The act of hanging Renna up was physical and not in any way affected by the collar. 

Renna could have tried to exert control through the collar,  but it is conceivable that she was in shock at being affected how she was. She KNEW that she couldn't channel.  She KNEW the collar couldn't control her. Her worldview exploded in that moment. Then she panicked and let Egwene go in an effort to save herself.  Big mistake,  HUGE.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 10:11 AM, Turin Turambar said:

It could be argued that just as she had to convince herself that the pitcher could not be used as a weapon,  you could convince yourself that the collar as not a weapon.  It does not intrinsically cause physical damage. Once it is applied and she became Renna's Sul'dam, it was a tool. Even according to Seanchan ideology Damane are trained to serve, not "punished". The act of hanging Renna up was physical and not in any way affected by the collar. 

Renna could have tried to exert control through the collar,  but it is conceivable that she was in shock at being affected how she was. She KNEW that she couldn't channel.  She KNEW the collar couldn't control her. Her worldview exploded in that moment. Then she panicked and let Egwene go in an effort to save herself.  Big mistake,  HUGE.

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The pitcher is not normally a weapon she had to convince herself that after she thought of it as one that she would never imagine using it as one again. How are you going to convince yourself that hanging is not an attack especially as she intended to kill her. The fact that the collar was still working to strangle Egwene seems to indicate that it was still functioning as if she was collared so the thought of using the collar to attack should have been impossible.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 5:17 AM, Mailman said:

She convinced herself that hanging someone was not an attack.

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No. Once collared, Renna is no longer Sul’Dam. She is damane. There was nothing preventing her from attacking another damane in the absence of a Sul’Dam. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 1:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No. Once collared, Renna is no longer Sul’Dam. She is damane. There was nothing preventing her from attacking another damane in the absence of a Sul’Dam. 

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They are both as shown by Egwene being choked as Renna's Damane.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 1:42 PM, Mailman said:

They are both as shown by Egwene being choked as Renna's Damane.

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What are you talking about? Egwene doesn’t do anything to Renna until she is collared. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 1:44 PM, Elder_Haman said:

What are you talking about? Egwene doesn’t do anything to Renna until she is collared. 

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When Egwene collars Renna she is both Sul'Damane and Damane,

If she is not Sul'Damane she cannot touch the source without permission or use Renna power..

If she is not Damane she would not be choked by Renna being choked.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 1:47 PM, Mailman said:

When Egwene collars Renna she is both Sul'Damane and Damane,

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No. A damane can’t be a Sul’Dam. Damane are not human. Damane are animals. No damane could be a Sul’Dam. 
 

Sul’Dam could never be a damane. Sul’Dam are elevated. They are above others. It is impossible to conceive of a Sul’Dam being something as low as a damane. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 1:55 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No. A damane can’t be a Sul’Dam. Damane are not human. Damane are animals. No damane could be a Sul’Dam. 
 

Sul’Dam could never be a damane. Sul’Dam are elevated. They are above others. It is impossible to conceive of a Sul’Dam being something as low as a damane. 

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What?

 

When Egwene put the collar on Renna they became linked in the manner of Sul'Damane and Damane running in both directions. This has nothing to do with the Seachan view on the linkage it is purely the mechanics of the linkage.

 

Egwene by the mechanics of being Damane cannot channel the power without permission. 

So for her to use the power she must Use the Sul'Damane mechanic.

Egwene using the one power hangs Renna.

Egwene is choked at the same time Renna is hanged by the mechanic of being Damane to her Sul'Damane.

 

Egwene as Damane should not be capable of attacking Renna by the mechanic of being Damane to her Sul'Damane.

 

The scene makes no sense by the mechanics of the collars.

The viewpoint of the Seachan in regard to Damane does not matter.

Edited April 11 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:03 PM, Mailman said:

The viewpoint of the Seachan in regard to Damane does not matter.

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Wrong. It is the crucial part of the interaction. 
 

Renna advises Egwene that she is not able to think about hurting her Sul’Dam. Once collared, Renna is no longer a Sul’Dam. Egwene is then not only able to think about hurting her, but to do so in fact, so long as she can endure the pain from the feedback loop. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Wrong. It is the crucial part of the interaction. 
 

Renna advises Egwene that she is not able to think about hurting her Sul’Dam. Once collared, Renna is no longer a Sul’Dam. Egwene is then not only able to think about hurting her, but to do so in fact, so long as she can endure the pain from the feedback loop. 

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That is not how that works. Renna is still Sul'Damane because of the bracelet. Being Damane does not cancel out the other.

The very fact that she would accept the feedback loop is evidence that she is subject to the rules of the A'dam and thus Damane.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:43 PM, Mailman said:

Renna is still Sul'Dam

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Egwene no longer believes this. And, once collared, neither does Renna. 

The power of the collar is ultimately tied to the will of the channeler. So Egwene is able to exert her authority as Sul'Dam whereas Renna is not.

 

I think at the end of the day, you just want to reduce this to 'collar go bzzzz' and eliminate the other dynamics. And if that's how you see it, I get why it annoys you so much. I think they are trying to do something more meaningful with it, which is establishing Egwene's stubborn determination and mental resilience. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:54 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Egwene no longer believes this. And, once collared, neither does Renna. 

The power of the collar is ultimately tied to the will of the channeler. So Egwene is able to exert her authority as Sul'Dam whereas Renna is not.

 

I think at the end of the day, you just want to reduce this to 'collar go bzzzz' and eliminate the other dynamics. And if that's how you see it, I get why it annoys you so much. I think they are trying to do something more meaningful with it, which is establishing Egwene's stubborn determination and mental resilience. 

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Well if you are making the collar irrelevant then the moment Egwene believed Renna could channel then she could have attacked her as she is simply uncollared.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:57 PM, Mailman said:

Well if you are making the collar irrelevant.

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No one is making the collar 'irrelevant'.

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:57 PM, Mailman said:

the moment Egwene believed Renna could channel then she could have attacked her as she is simply uncollared.

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Egwene doesn't know anything at all about how the Seanchan view the 'uncollared'. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Renna equates being collared with being Damane. So, no. 

[fearbrog]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No one is making the collar 'irrelevant'.

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Show made it irrelevant the moment Egwene able to collar her Sul'dam. Literally uses weapon against her master

[Mirefox]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:09 PM, fearbrog said:

Show made it irrelevant the moment Egwene able to collar her Sul'dam. Literally uses weapon against her master

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Amen.  The show absolutely neutered the horror of the collars when we learned that force of will is the newly-created trick to get out.  I wonder why other channeled haven’t gotten out yet.  Oh wait, that yellow sister in Falme did - we just saw her trying to heal Mat.

 

I guess that collar they are looking for for Rand isn’t all that scary since if he just wants it bad enough, he can get right on out of it…

Edited April 11 by Mirefox

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No one is making the collar 'irrelevant'.

 

Egwene doesn't know anything at all about how the Seanchan view the 'uncollared'. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Renna equates being collared with being Damane. So, no. 

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You said it is her belief that makes it work not the collar. So once Egwene realised that Renna is simply uncollared Damane then that belief makes her no longer Sul'Damane by your own argument.