Who is Mesaana?

[Luckers]

That requires a number of complicated things to be true.

 

First, the Myrddraal need to be able to both "see" the outward appearance of the Chosen, and then to be able to "see" beneath that outward appearance and also "see" the Chosen Mark on the forehead of the real person underneath.

 

Then to top it off, they have to report the incident using only the outward appearance of the relevant Chosen as the identifier.

 

Too complicated and messy.

 

What? It requires only that the chosen mark is something that any shadowspawn can sense in the Chosen. It is a simple, generic mark, present in all.

 

They meet a guy, feel he has the mark, and obey him. End of game. That they can later describe the guy is pretty much a given.

 

And we know this as fact--the scene in KoD makes it clear that the chosen mark can specifically allow a shadowspawn to identify the specific Chosen.

 

I am not being misleading at all.  I am stating things as I see them.

 

Forgive me, i was not saying you were intentionally being misleading, i was saying your point was misleading. I phrased it badly.

 

It was specifically mentioned that Sammy was invited.  The others are not mentioned as invited but are told that they are to learn nothing of this.

 

The 'others' are believe either dead, or off the beaten path. This implies nothing about Graendal. She was at a meeting of the Chosen to hear Demandreds conveyed orders from the Dark One, and Mesaana makes it clear that despite their alliance, that is the only reason she is there too.

 

Passing on orders?  Yeah.  To his allies and his allies alone.

 

What? They were the Dark One's orders to the Chosen, spoken to all the Chosen he could reach.

 

It seems to me that Dem was picking up the pieces of the failed FoH team, and Sammy chose to stay home and sulk.

 

In what way, precisely? Demandred was conveying orders from the Dark One. The Chosen came to hear, and of the FoH group, only Graendal... nothing in that shows she allied herself with them... indeed, she did not. She herself shows that in her thoughts about Semirhage and Demandred in aCoS.

 

Besides himself, there's more than 3 or 4 Forsaken remaining.  To me there is very little doubt that this meeting was between 5, and 4 of 5 showed up, and those 4 (3 since Dem already knows) get the knowledge of the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" plan.  It seems that Graendal does tell Sammael part of it (the Rand/Nae'blis angle), but there was no mention of the "Lord of Chaos".  Graendal's own plan is contrary to Dem's plan, she plans to kill Rand (or have him killed) and throw Sammy under the bus.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying there... but again, he invited all the Chosen to a meeting in order to convey they dark Ones instructions. Of them, only Sammael didn't come--his lack does not, however, imply that Graendal is in cahoots with those that did. Indeed her thoughts in aCoS about Demandred and Semirhage show she is not.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nope.  All of the currently active Chosen were invited.  Sam chose not to attend.  Everyone else did.

 

Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Moridin, and Cyndane are all still in the jar.  Bel'al, Rahvin, and Asmodean are DEAD, dead.  Moggy was the only other one who wasn't there.

 

Luckers -

What? It requires only that the chosen mark is something that any shadowspawn can sense in the Chosen. It is a simple, generic mark, present in all.

 

They meet a guy, feel he has the mark, and obey him. End of game. That they can later describe the guy is pretty much a given.

 

And we know this as fact--the scene in KoD makes it clear that the chosen mark can specifically allow a shadowspawn to identify the specific Chosen.

 

Either it's a generic mark or it isn't.  It can't be both generic and yet specific enough to identify the specific Chosen.

 

Which is really part of my point.  If the disguise is thorough enough that the Myrddraal report "Sammael did this.", then the disguise needs to incorporate Sammael's specific Chosen Mark.  If outward appearance doesn't matter, if all that matters is some generic Chosen Mark, then the Myrddraal would simply report, "One of the Chosen did this."  If the Myrddraal is capable of "seeing" both the outward appearance and the hidden specific Chosen Mark, then it would report, "Chosen X, disguised as Sammael did this."

 

It makes sense that in a situation like we have with all of the DO's minions there would be a specific mark for each individual, simplifying the DO's problems of accounting for which Chosen was responsible for what.  As much as that bunch is into sabotage and backstabbing, they'd be doing nothing but impersonating one another in order to create situations that would eliminate their competition and clear their way to the top otherwise.  So if the Myrddraal are reporting that Sammael was ordering troops into the Ways then whoever was doing so had to have borne Sammael's specific Chosen Mark.  Nobody but Sam hisveryownself could have done that.

[benr]

It can't be Laras. Elaborate changes like that don't stand up to touch, and we've seen Laras get touched. Her Mask of Mirrors would not have held.

 

When a channeler is disguised as described, is the disguise only revealed when touched by another channeler?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The disguise starts to become threadbare if someone gets close enough.  We see that with Mesaana and Alviarin.  Alviarin sees a little of the actual dress Mesaana is wearing as she's prostrating herself at Mesaana's feet.

 

As to Tarna - not so much.

 

Once SH shows up, and Mesaana's disguise totally evaporates, Alviarin glimpses her face clearly.  She knows she's seen her before, but can't put a place or a name to the face she sees.  Tarna would be someone she would immediately recognize.

[benr]

Does the disguise get threadbare if a non-channeler gets too close or touches the disguisee?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Unknown, but probably.

 

Alviarin was too afraid of Mesaana to risk even touching the Source in her presence.  Which makes her just an ordinary human being like any other during that interview.  As a channeler, she might have been able to see the Weave that created the disguise, but she couldn't penetrate that disguise to any greater extent than a non-channeler.

[benr]

Okay; here goes.

 

In chapter 48 of TSR, at the end:

 

  "Keille watched, round face unreadable, until the white door closed, then suddenly rounded on Mat, who was on the point of slipping away.  'Few men have ever refused an offer from me once, much less twice.  You should have a care I do not take it in mind to do something about it.'  Laughing, she reached up and pinched his cheek with thick fingers, hard enough to make him wince, then turned in Rand's direction.  'Tell him, my Lord Dragon.  I have a feeling you know something of the dangers of scorning a woman....

 

The immense woman laughed uproariously.  Mat flinched as she reached for him again, but all she did was pat the cheek she had pinched before.

 

Here we have a disguised Forsaken able to touch someone, in the presence of a channeler (and not just any channeler) without losing her disguise.  That certainly leaves it probable that Mesaana disguised as Laras could do the same.  The fact that Alviarin knows that she's seen Mesaana's alter ego before, but doesn't quite recognize it, could easily be the difference between the disguise as Laras and the true Mesaana.  I think that Mesaana is using at least two disguises here; one so she can operate freely in the White Tower, and one when she meets with Alviarin or any other BA.

 

I've liked Laras as Mesaana for a long time, but Lucker's argument about the touching had me stymied.  I think this opens it back up for her.  Her "shocking past" (yes, I know that has been dimissed as just her wild youth, but I don't see that as shocking), and her aid to Min in spiriting Siuan and Leane out of the tower to further the chances of a broken White Tower; I'm more convinced than ever.

[metria31183]

Lanfear touched Mat.  Fingers touching you feel like fingers touching you regardless of Illusion.  Had Mat touched her, say her face or put his hand on her waist, he would have felt Lanfear's actual body, not the body of a fat woman.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maybe yes, maybe no.  In one case Mat has no idea he's the victim of a hoax.  In the other Alviarin knows Mesaana is disguising herself.

 

We have a case here of Lanfear touching someone else.  And, that someone, flinching away.  Mat's just trying to get away from her.  He suspects nothing and is somewhat panicked by her advances.  He experiences what he expects to experience given her appearance and actions.

 

With Alviarin, we have a case of someone actively trying to get close enough to penetrate the disguise, and taking a small risk to do so.  Alviarin was actually touching the hem of her dress and sneaking a peek to see if she could see the actual dress or just the disguise.  Even though she's passive/aggressively trying to penetrate the disguise she has only limited success.

 

In any ordinary case, it seems unlikely that the disguise will simply vanish at some finite distance, ala Semi and Cadsuane's hair ornament.  Or, Mesaana and Shaidar Haran's presence.  A Mask or Mirrors ( or Mirror of Mists ) would ordinarily probably stand up to the normal jostling one would get while walking down a crowded street.

 

Also, what metria said.

[benr]

Could be.  But it seems careless of Lanfear to put herself into the strong possiblility of discovery in front of Rand (unless she didn't care/already knew Rand suspected/knew).  My thought is that the Forsaken could very well know how to tie it off more firmly than AS can.  Mesaana was being confronted by SH and lost control when Alvi saw her.  Would Alvi recognize Danelle?  Who has been around but she wouldn't recognize?  And Elayne & Nyn with Moggy...

[havoc110]

Back to Dem's meeting.  He is working with incomplete info on the status of the rest of the Forsaken.  If he had that knowledge, why would he say "the others, whether alive or dead", when he could have simply said, "Moghedien".

 

Also, Alviarin is also (most likely) working under a false pretense that she is seeing Mesaana's AS guise, when she is really seeing Mesaana herself.

 

Clearly SH wouldn't dispel her black/silver guise and leave her an AS guise intact underneath (most likely Mesaana is shut off from the Source like Alviarin anyway).  For that matter, when in her black/silver mode, there's really no need to put on a disguise over a disguise.  So the dress color here (and in the other scenes) might even be a red herring, because the color could potentially be different than the one Mesanna may be projecting in her AS guise.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're assuming she is using some form of disguise at all times.  Not a safe assumption.

[havoc110]

True enough, but she has the ability to. (Per Alviarin's observation about

not sensing channeling or even the ability to channel).

 

Granted, she claims to be proud of not using the One Power when she doesn't have to, but since she doesn't appear ageless, she's either not an AS, or altering her appearance to appear ageless (again, she wouldn't be detected).

(Per her EWoT entry).  Also, not mentioned in her EWoT entry, she could be posing as a very young AS who does not appear ageless yet.  (I investigate each of these when I find them.)

 

Of the three, I think the highest probability lies with her being a AS and masking her disguise weave.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A constant complete disguise would be complicated and difficult to maintain within the WT.

... Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green.  A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years.  She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any signs of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name. ...

 

That has to be Mesaana's true appearance.  SH's presence has cancelled all Weaves that were in effect.  Her appearance rather closely matches the descriptions we have of Danelle.

 

From the BWB, Mesaana is described only as being "of average height and appearance".  The only commonality between the two descriptions is that Mesaana was "often taken for being dreamy because of her introspection."

 

I'll leave it to you to decide what the implications of all that mean.

[havoc110]

A constant complete disguise would be complicated and difficult to maintain within the WT

 

By complete, if you mean: facial appearance, physical stature, clothing, and voice;

then I agree.

[benr]

Yes; keeping the disguise close to your original appearance should make it easier to hold.  If Mesaana were disguised as Laras, it could very well be just an addition of weight.  The only time she needed an elaborate disguise was in meeting with BAs.  That did come back to haunt her.  I agree that her appearance with SH and Alviarin was her true self.

[metria31183]

Yes; keeping the disguise close to your original appearance should make it easier to hold.  If Mesaana were disguised as Laras, it could very well be just an addition of weight.  The only time she needed an elaborate disguise was in meeting with BAs.  That did come back to haunt her.  I agree that her appearance with SH and Alviarin was her true self.

 

If Mesaana were disgusing herself as Laras, anytime anyone bumped into her they would feel her actual body, not the body of an overweight woman.  Illusion gives the appearance of something, but no substance to it. 

 

It actually would not be that difficult to maintain a disguise using the OP in the Tower given the knowledge and skills of the Forsaken.  Mesaana could be inverting her weaves and tying them off so that she doesn't have to hold onto saidar constantly.  No one would be able to detect her true ability or her weaves of Illusion.  If she is masquarading as Danelle, Danelle has no friends and keeps to herself, so she would have to worry about keeping up the disguise in her own quarters.  Especially if she warded her quarters and inverted those weaves as well.

[Majsju]

All she has to do when assuming her Danelle "personality" is giving herself the ageless face. We have seen with Siuan and Leane how much that chages the appearance. And of course, posing as Danelle without using the ageless look would be very much impossible.

[Luckers]

Nope.  All of the currently active Chosen were invited.  Sam chose not to attend.  Everyone else did.

 

Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Moridin, and Cyndane are all still in the jar.  Bel'al, Rahvin, and Asmodean are DEAD, dead.  Moggy was the only other one who wasn't there.

 

What does that have to do with anything i said? I stated that the fact that Graendal was at Demandreds meeting does not mean she is in alliance with them becuase it was a meeting for all Chosen--Sammael chose not to go, and Moghedian was believed to be dead, but out of contact besides, the inference that Graendal's appearence means something is flawed.

 

Luckers -

Quote

What? It requires only that the chosen mark is something that any shadowspawn can sense in the Chosen. It is a simple, generic mark, present in all.

 

They meet a guy, feel he has the mark, and obey him. End of game. That they can later describe the guy is pretty much a given.

 

And we know this as fact--the scene in KoD makes it clear that the chosen mark can specifically allow a shadowspawn to identify the specific Chosen.

 

 

Either it's a generic mark or it isn't.  It can't be both generic and yet specific enough to identify the specific Chosen.

 

Forgive me, i was tired when i wrote that. What i meant to say was that the scene in KoD makes it clear that the Chosen Mark cannot be used to specifically identify which Chosen gave the command. It is a generic mark. All who have it feel the same, and there is no distinguishing. I appologise for the confusion.

 

Which is really part of my point.  If the disguise is thorough enough that the Myrddraal report "Sammael did this.", then the disguise needs to incorporate Sammael's specific Chosen Mark.  If outward appearance doesn't matter, if all that matters is some generic Chosen Mark, then the Myrddraal would simply report, "One of the Chosen did this."  If the Myrddraal is capable of "seeing" both the outward appearance and the hidden specific Chosen Mark, then it would report, "Chosen X, disguised as Sammael did this."

 

Again, no it does not. The sensation of the mark merely ensures command, beyond that the Myrdraals description of the physical appearence  is the only source for us to link the individual. The Mark does not differentiate. That is proven.

 

Quote from: Luckers on May 13, 2008, 12:21:04 AM

It can't be Laras. Elaborate changes like that don't stand up to touch, and we've seen Laras get touched. Her Mask of Mirrors would not have held.

 

 

When a channeler is disguised as described, is the disguise only revealed when touched by another channeler?

 

No, if they move quickly it might also display flashes of the real person--which could possibly be missed. What cannot is that it fails at direct touch, which Sammael states when he witnesses Graendal's disguise as the Lady Basne.

 

As to Tarna - not so much.

 

Once SH shows up, and Mesaana's disguise totally evaporates, Alviarin glimpses her face clearly.  She knows she's seen her before, but can't put a place or a name to the face she sees.  Tarna would be someone she would immediately recognize.

 

Tarna is proven not to be Mesaana.

 

Does the disguise get threadbare if a non-channeler gets too close or touches the disguisee?

 

Yes.

 

The immense woman laughed uproariously.  Mat flinched as she reached for him again, but all she did was pat the cheek she had pinched before.

 

Here we have a disguised Forsaken able to touch someone, in the presence of a channeler (and not just any channeler) without losing her disguise.  That certainly leaves it probable that Mesaana disguised as Laras could do the same.  The fact that Alviarin knows that she's seen Mesaana's alter ego before, but doesn't quite recognize it, could easily be the difference between the disguise as Laras and the true Mesaana.  I think that Mesaana is using at least two disguises here; one so she can operate freely in the White Tower, and one when she meets with Alviarin or any other BA.

 

Keile touched mat with an extremity, we've seen Laras hug someone. Sammael makes clear that that is impossible without breaking the illusion.

 

And the disguises have nothing to do with channelers watching.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Forgive me, i was tired when i wrote that. What i meant to say was that the scene in KoD makes it clear that the Chosen Mark cannot be used to specifically identify which Chosen gave the command. It is a generic mark. All who have it feel the same, and there is no distinguishing. I appologise for the confusion.

 

Nothing to forgive.  Been there, done that myself.  Just wanted a clarification about what you really meant.

 

If it is a generic mark as you say, then my best guess, due to timing,  would be Demandred was disguising himself as Sam.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Possibly. My main problem is that it seems foolish--the Forsaken just personally encountered the channelers Rand had around him, and know well what the one power can achieve--add that to the fact that they know he has Callandor and Choedan Kal, and no reason not to use either....

 

Altogether is seems utterly stupid for one of them to have commanded the attack--expecially Demandred. He would have to have known it would do nothing then see 100,000 Trollocs dead, and reawaken the Light to the threat of the Shadow, something they've desperately been working against.

 

Taim, on the other hand, makes alot of sense. It fits his MO--blunt assualt at the hope it achieves his needs so long as it can't be traced backed to him. Furthermore we have the fact that three days prior he was desperate to learn Rands location--and for all that he didn't learn it from Logain, there are his men to account for, and even more importantly the Aes Sedai who directly stated their intent to use the rift between Logain and Taim to destroy the Black Tower. Three days, the exact amount of time required to travel the ways, and then the distance between Shangtai and the manor in Tear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's part of what makes it all so confusing.

 

That part of KoD overlaps with CoT and WH.  The Trollocs and Myrddraal Moridin refers to are the ones who attacked Rand at the Manor.  They were ordered into the Ways BEFORE the Cleansing.

 

Demandred, along with Graendal and Aran'gar, had come to the conclusion that the safest thing he could do was to kill Rand BEFORE he used the CK, rather than risk facing him while he was using the CK.

[havoc110]

So Luckers are you putting forth support

for Taim's field promotion to Chosen?  It fits

(somewhat, I'm not sure how completely) with

the "Moridin's chairs" problem.

 

Or is there possibly a way to "counterfeit" the

Chosen mark?

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oops.  See, the timing of it all is so confusing that I confused myself :D

 

First came the kaffe klatsch where Cyndane spilled the beans about the CK and the Cleansing.

Next came Slayer's attempt on Rand and Min in Far Madding - either Graendal or Aran'gar.

Then came the attempt on Dobraine and Bashere - definitely Graendal, she's the master forger of the bunch.  The way the searchers at Bashere's camp died screams Slayer's work.

Provisionally, Shadowspawn are ordered into the Ways to be ready for when Rand is located.

Then came the Cleansing.

Then once the mole had discovered where Rand was resting up, came the final ordering of Trollocs and Myrddraal to the Manor.

Awhile after that, the Shadowspawn finally make it to the Waygate outside Tear and thence to the Manor.  Unknown whether the object was to kill or capture.

Finally we get to Semi's attempt to kidnap Rand.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

havoc -

 

No way to fake the Chosen Mark.  It can't be seen by any but Shadowspawn.  Nobody knows what it looks like, how it works, or anything else that would be needed to make a successful fake.