On a reread, a few questions (book spoilers)

[trw1972]

Hey guys

 

I am on a reread, it is probably my twentieth read through but my first in a few years.

 

I have finished book six and on book seven, cadsuane has just appeared for the first time and got a couple of queries.

 

After reading book 6 literally everything feels like taim is demanded, I know he isn't but does anyone else think that was the original plan and it may have been changed because fans guessed?

 

Also, just a few chapters of cadsuane is enough to irritate me, does anyone like this character? She irritated me every time I read the series

 

Cheers

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Cannot stand Cadsuane. Everything about her is annoying imo. The mysterious back story. The bunch of ter'angreal that give her unique powers. The way she treats other Aes Sedai. The way she is a legend that is never mentioned until she appears. The way she knows how to handle Rand but actually deals with him so badly she is only kept around because Min had read the books and knew she was super important - because otherwise Tam would never speak to Rand (a viewing of Min's right up there Alivia's one). Her obsession with corporal punishment. Her relationship with Nynaeve that had no arc or progression. 

 

About the only thing I like was her interactions with Sorilea, and that did not develop very far. 

 

I think you are right about Demandred but not sure if it was ever confirmed. Some people were just discussing it but I cannot quite recall in which thread... 

[trw1972]

Agree with all of that, i remember thinking the way in which she 'broke' semirhage was silly as well

Dont get me wrong, other characters such as nynaeve and egwene irritate me at times but they have awesome scenes to balance it 

 

I will take a look for the taim thread, thanks

[Elgee]

I'm a Cads fan ... lol

Agree with you about the breaking of Semirhage but I put that down to the replacement author, not the character.

 

Also pretty sure you're correct about Demandred but can't recall off-hand if it was confirmed.

[dwn]

I think it's fairly well (if not obviously) established that Taim was never meant to be Demandred, or any Forsaken. First, he has at least some history in Saldaea (and was captured by Aes Sedai). Second, Dashiva was the Shadow agent at the Black Tower.

 

(That being said, I found Demandred's ultimate reveal to be lackluster, and inserting an entirely new society at the last minute was extremely clumsy. That could also be due to the replacement author.)

 

I'll echo Elgee in liking Cadsuane--except for her out-of-the-blue (green?) introduction. I suspect RJ realized that Moiraine was going to be gone far longer than he originally anticipated and needed someone to fill that role in Rand's development.

 

While I agree the breaking of Semirhage was handled a bit clumsily, I very much liked Cadsuane's realization that she, herself was likely older--and certainly had more life experience--than Semirhage did.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

27 minutes ago, dwn said:

I think it's fairly well (if not obviously) established that Taim was never meant to be Demandred, or any Forsaken. First, he has at least some history in Saldaea (and was captured by Aes Sedai). Second, Dashiva was the Shadow agent at the Black Tower.

 

(That being said, I found Demandred's ultimate reveal to be lackluster, and inserting an entirely new society at the last minute was extremely clumsy. That could also be due to the replacement author.)

 

I'll echo Elgee in liking Cadsuane--except for her out-of-the-blue (green?) introduction. I suspect RJ realized that Moiraine was going to be gone far longer than he originally anticipated and needed someone to fill that role in Rand's development.

 

While I agree the breaking of Semirhage was handled a bit clumsily, I very much liked Cadsuane's realization that she, herself was likely older--and certainly had more life experience--than Semirhage did.

There was meant to be the clue that Bashere did not recognise Taim, not sure I really got that, but it was meant to be a hint that it was not Taim at all. One huge clue for me was Taim's knowledge of how to test a man for the ability to channel. How would any individual work that out? And why would Taim care? There was no evidence that he cared about recruiting disciples or underlings. Then there was his obvious hatred of Rand. If Asmodean could at least pretend to be on Rand's side, why could Taim not?

 

But yes, I found the whole Demandred story line a bit of a let down. Nearly all of the other Forsaken had a role to play (if they were not dead anyway, poor Be'lal, why was Rahvin scared of him?) but Demandred was held back like an ace in a sleeve and was just a disappointment, imho. Didn't even have Graendel's bosom, or wear streith, strange how that was a female thing in the books....

[Elendir]

Cadsuane wasn't only one power abuser in tWoT. But where others has some arcs of reformation or punishment, Cadsuane has nothing like that. She was near to break dragon and make him do what shadow wished, yet she never owned her mistake.

[CaddySedai]

I clearly am a fan of Cadsuane. Lol. That is my contribution to this thread. Carry on.

[DojoToad]

I liked Cadsuane fine until her confrontation with Tam in the Stone when he exposed her as the bully she was - not that there weren't hints before, but it couldn't be ignored after that.  Part of being Aes Sedai is being a bully with words and the Tower mystique to get stuff done without resorting to sword or the Power.  In the end, I think she just went too far.  Still a badass character, just because I dislike her as a 'person' doesn't mean she isn't awesome/imposing in her own way.

Edited January 19 by DojoToad

[Bugglesley]

If you're still looking, the active Taimandred thread is here, it has meandered and gotten derailed a little bit but my tldr understanding is RJ did originally intend Taim to be Demandred, wrote it that way and dropped hints in the early books, changed his mind, but repeatedly denied that the change was because fans guessed it.

 

As for Caddy, yeah she's a bully. In some ways she's also what Rand needs? He did need to be pushed out of the Darth Rand mindset; probably her best thesis statement is all the stuff about "steel shatters, a willow bends." Of course, her methods were not particularly effective, but it was a message that was part of Rand's journey to enlightenment. He needed to learn that true strength isn't cutting away all weakness, ignoring all pain, removing all weak spots.. but rather embracing the vulnerability that is love, which in turn gives you the strength to protect what you love. Ironically, of course, she tries to achieve this by overpowering and bullying him into realizing he needs to be compassionate.

 

I think it's totally fine that she just shows up. Not everything needs foreshadowing, it's Ok for there to just be shadows. I think it's good when things happen in a narrative you couldn't perfectly predict that develop it in interesting ways. I agree with the toad; whether you like her as a person or not, she certainly pushes the narrative into developing in interesting ways.

Edited January 19 by Bugglesley

[dwn]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I liked Cadsuane fine until her confrontation with Tam in the Stone when he exposed her as the bully she was - not that there weren't hints before, but it couldn't be ignored after that.  Part of being Aes Sedai is being a bully with words and the Tower mystique to get stuff done without resorting to sword or the Power.  In the end, I think she just went too far.  Still a badass character, just because I dislike her as a 'person' doesn't mean she isn't awesome/imposing in her own way.

 

I think some of Cadsuane's questionabile behaviour in the final books is due to the author change. From a bird's eye view her decisions make sense, but her interactions with other characters feel somewhat off.

[Bugglesley]

21 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

I think some of Cadsuane's questionabile behaviour in the final books is due to the author change. From a bird's eye view her decisions make sense, but her interactions with other characters feel somewhat off.

I don't know if you can blame this on Brando Sando; she's a bully from the start. She's so obnoxious upon her introduction that all-time MVP Verin considers straight up murdering her when they're in Far Madding, before confirming she really is just trying to push Rand on the path to winning TG.

The books are chock-full of people doing otherwise awful things they feel are necessary; not least of which is Rand himself! There is more than one PoV chapter in the RJ books from Caddy where she really clearly lays out how she believes that Rand has to be "brought in hand" and taught "how to behave" before he can win. Like I said, there are levels to the irony how she doesn't see that her methods are ineffective and how her experience doesn't exactly apply to this situation and how, broadly, she's making many of the exact errors it's so easy for her to see in Rand. That's what makes it interesting!

[dwn]

5 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

I don't know if you can blame this on Brando Sando; she's a bully from the start. She's so obnoxious upon her introduction that all-time MVP Verin considers straight up murdering her when they're in Far Madding, before confirming she really is just trying to push Rand on the path to winning TG.

Verin only considers murdering her becuase she worries Cadsuane's impact would be bad for Rand and the Light side--and she doesn't go through with it when she learns Cadsuane's intent (see below).

 

5 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

The books are chock-full of people doing otherwise awful things they feel are necessary; not least of which is Rand himself! There is more than one PoV chapter in the RJ books from Caddy where she really clearly lays out how she believes that Rand has to be "brought in hand" and taught "how to behave" before he can win. Like I said, there are levels to the irony how she doesn't see that her methods are ineffective and how her experience doesn't exactly apply to this situation and how, broadly, she's making many of the exact errors it's so easy for her to see in Rand. That's what makes it interesting!

Cadsuane certainly wasn't a bully in the early books, assuming you define 'bully' to be someone forcing others down merely to feel powerful. Cadusance used various tactics--some agressive, some manipulative, some honest and straightforward--depending on the circumstances. Her primary goal was always to make Rand and the Asha'man see themselves as humans rather than weapons. Part of her strategy was making Rand treat others with courtesy and respect, at a time when he was rapidly devolving into an authoritarian dictator.

 

[Bugglesley]

52 minutes ago, dwn said:

Verin only considers murdering her becuase she worries Cadsuane's impact would be bad for Rand and the Light side--and she doesn't go through with it when she learns Cadsuane's intent (see below).

 

Cadsuane certainly wasn't a bully in the early books, assuming you define 'bully' to be someone forcing others down merely to feel powerful. Cadusance used various tactics--some agressive, some manipulative, some honest and straightforward--depending on the circumstances. Her primary goal was always to make Rand and the Asha'man see themselves as humans rather than weapons. Part of her strategy was making Rand treat others with courtesy and respect, at a time when he was rapidly devolving into an authoritarian dictator.

 

We're into semantic weeds at this point because I 95% agree! It's just that trying to get Rand to see himself as a human... by constantly degrading him in public, up to and including whipping his ass with the Power in front of some of his most crucial underlings, is bully behavior to me. Why would Verin even wonder if Caddy is a bad influence in the first place? I would argue it is because she had done nothing but try to bully him into listening to her (correct!) advice, and Verin was trying to decide if the advice or the bullying was at the core here.

 

To me, the changes in Cadsuane in the last few books are a matter of degree and not kind. She doubles and triples down, yes, but it does follow what was already there.

Edited January 19 by Bugglesley

[Elendir]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:07 PM, dwn said:

Cadsuane certainly wasn't a bully in the early books, assuming you define 'bully' to be someone forcing others down merely to feel powerful. Cadusance used various tactics--some agressive, some manipulative, some honest and straightforward--depending on the circumstances. Her primary goal was always to make Rand and the Asha'man see themselves as humans rather than weapons. Part of her strategy was making Rand treat others with courtesy and respect, at a time when he was rapidly devolving into an authoritarian dictator.

 

 

Cadsuane beats Min to force her to reveal viewings about Rand. She is bully from the begining.