Lan & Nyneave

[Lady Saravhem]

I'm sure this has probably been discussed before. When do you think Lan and Nyneave started having feelings for one another? I know it was in tEOtW and I think I'm almost sure of when Lan started feeling a spark of something for her but I'm not so sure about her. With Lan I think it was when Nyneave tracked him and Moriane down, and he never heard her or realized she was hiding behind the tree. Did Nyneave show intrest in him before or after this? I can't remember, and the book, sadly is gone. Something silly I know but I all of a sudden, after all these years in the series, wondered about it last night. Strange, I know. Well any thoughts? I know you guys ain't shy!

[BrainFireBob]

My girlfriend and I discussed this.

 

When it started is hard to pin down. Nynaeve definitely had a crush on him by the Shadar Logoth incident- evidence her tearing up when he found her horse and didn't seem proud he'd managed to do so.

 

One can speculate he had interest in her as well at the time, since his eyes widened in surprise- and Moiraine comments that from Lan, that's like a gasp of surprise from another man.

 

She guessed at that time, and I think that's where the reader is first clued in- hence the relevence of Nynaeve explaining about her father in that section.

 

Their relationship: Lan is her replacement father figure on her side (her father, the manly-man hunter who taught her all she knew of tracking and nothing of being feminine); on his side, it's a woman he feels equal to- fierce, honorable, hot, and yet a woman who could go into the Blight with him and who would never stop fighting.

 

I think Lan would become bored with anyone else, he's lived too much of his life on edge not to be a secret adrenaline junkie. I also rather think Lan is bored of ultra-feminine noblewomen. Nynaeve's honest, with only one depth- be like a breath of fresh air.

[Rahela Sedai]

Lan and Nyneave are definately my favourite couple, if I don't think too hard about the age difference.

I remember in tEotW Lan and Nyneave have that private conversation that Rand accidentally lsitens too. Nyneave doesn't right come out and say she loves Lan, but she definately implies it. He gets the hint and hints that even though he feels the same way he's bound to his battle with the Blight and wouldn't dress her in widow's clothes at her wedding. *sigh* So melodramatic, so lovely.

I was so happy when they got married. Now they just have to work on the whole babies thing.

[trakand_01]

It is, although I have to say I remember a remarkably similar conversation between Aragorn and Arwen...

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It is, although I have to say I remember a remarkably similar conversation between Aragorn and Arwen...

 

Sacrilage! I'm off to get my pitchfork and burning torch...  ;D

 

I have to say, I thought the whole Nyn / Lan relationship came totally out of the blue. Yes, she alternatly blushes/comes close to crying etc. on a regular basis, you do see that. But, where does it come from? I mean it all seems a bit whirlwind romancey to me.

 

They start talking about getting hitched in book 2! What? Where were the one-on-one chats, or any normal semblance of getting to know oneanother?

 

It seemed to me that it was a plotline that RJ wanted to follow, so he did it. It just doesn't seem convincing to me.

 

Having said that, I do them like them as a couple, but the way they got together was weak IMHO.

[trakand_01]

I always thought it was a bit like the teenage crush thing. When you're a teenager you have massive crushes on men you've never met (or women) and plan your wedding at the age of 14. But the difference is that Lan returned her affections.

 

It is a bit whirlwindy but... he hasnt got long to go, surely. Months i'd think, at most. I guess she's just making the most of it!

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It is a bit whirlwindy but... he hasnt got long to go, surely. Months i'd think, at most. I guess she's just making the most of it!

 

Sorry, wasn't sure if you were replying to me ... if so, here's a reply:

 

Yeah ... but they didn't know, by Book 2, that TG was just around the corner. Nyn. certainly didn't know Rand was The Big Lizard, a Channeler, yes, the Dragon, no.

 

I don't know. It was the literary equivilent of Nyn. raising an eyebrow and saying, "How you doin'?" and Lan going weak at the knees. Sure, they've got their problems, but he talks about having nothing to give a bride after what, a few months ... possibly even weeks (I'm sure someone can do a timeline) at best? It's not as if Lan is the kinda guy who likes to sit and talk long into the night now, is it?

 

So yeah, it seems a bit crushy to me. As a result, I thought it was very naff. Though now they're good as a couple.

[Dragon21]

This might be a reach but....

Maybe Nyn started to like Lan around the same time because she was impressed ith him too. She was able to track him down, but maybe it was very tough, and that impressed her. And she probably appreciated him and had a respect for him after seeing him in action the night the trollocs came to the two rivers.

Maybe even back then he was this mysterious stranger who sparked interest from Nyn.

It's hard to say, cause the relationship sure came out of the blue.

[trakand_01]

I suspect that in reality, Lan and Nynaeve's relationship started at precisely the same time that RJ decided Moiraine was going through the doorway.

 

Lan is obviously an integral part of aMoL, or why would RJ have kept him alive? Lan's death would have rocked us more than Asmodean (it would me, anyway).

 

He must have known we're a cynical lot, and if Moiraine had gone through the doorway and Lan just... survived, well we'd be asking how that happened. Nynaeve's relationship with him was the answer - Lan was alive because he now had Nynaeve to protect, but he had to sow the seed well before Moiraine went, or we'd question their relationship too.

 

Seeing as we're STILL questioning the relationship, I wonder if Moiraine going through the doorway was a later addition to RJ's plot?

 

All points towards Lan (and certainly Moiraine) playing a major part in TG. Personally I think he will be the biggest martyr yet.

 

I mean that in a good way. In the way that Ingtar was a martyr, despite his allegiences.

[wvlr]

I think that it is very obvious in the first two books that Ny and Lan "click" together.  There are the scenes mentioned above, but also when Ny takes the Accepted test she has a "preview" that she might one day marry him.  A lot of their interactions in those books show that they both recognize that they are attracted to each other - but for many reasons they both recognize that it can't be (sort of a forbidden love type thing) for many reasons.    Ie. Lan is bonded to Moraine.    Lan from the beginning has a suicide drive to fight the Blight.  He is older - but not as much as it appears because Ny is older than she looks.

 

Lan's bond is one of the obvious reasons that Ny hates Moraine from the beginning.  She does not know that the bond can be transfered.

 

The main thing that I can't understand is that now that she does know that the bond can be transfered and they are married and she can travel.  It makes absolutely no sence to me that Ny has not gone to Merelle and forced her to give her the bond.  This is definately something that Ny would have done at the first opportunity.

 

[Majsju]

The main thing that I can't understand is that now that she does know that the bond can be transfered and they are married and she can travel.  It makes absolutely no sence to me that Ny has not gone to Merelle and forced her to give her the bond.  This is definately something that Ny would have done at the first opportunity.

 

Nynaeve is one of the most duty-focused characters in the series. While she would leap at Myrelle at first chance, she would most certainly not go out of her way to seek her out, as long as she has other duties to attend to. She may appear selfish in her POVs, but her actions pretty uch always shows a woman who puts others interests first.

And ever since she hooked up with Lan, she has had other duties. First finding and using the Bowl, then get Elayne safely to Caemlyn, once in Caemlyn help Elayne and the other sisters deal with the kin and the windfinders, and lately helping Rand.

[Rahela Sedai]

I think that Nynaeve doesn't really place the bond as much of a priority now as she did before. I mean the only reason she wanted it so badly was because Moiraine had it and she didn't know much about bonds and trasnferring them in the beginning.

Now Moiraine is pretty effectively out of the way and Nynaeve has what she wanted in the first place: to be married to Lan. She knows that while Myrelle techinically holds his bond Myrelle and Lan don't have anything near the close relationship of him and Moiraine, built by years of being bonded together.

Nynaeve doesn't have to worry about Myrelle taking Lan away from her because now that Moiraine is gone she's the number one woman in his life and no one can replace her now, even if Moriaine comes back.

SO now that she's got him heart, mind, and partly soul the bond isn't something she has to get NOW, she can afford to wait.

Even if the fact that Myrelle always knows when have sex bothers her.

[Luthine]

When do you think Lan and Nyneave started having feelings for one another?

I think it's safe to say that they started having feelings for each other ever since Emond's Field.

This is made clear by their conversation in Baerlon where he's impressed by her tracking skills and even compliments her and she responds by blushing. They both made strong impressions on each other through Winter's Night, him with the fighting, her with the healing and sense of responsibilities.

I'd even go as far as to say it was love at first sight, when Moiraine asked her questions when they first arrived in the village.

 

I have to say, I thought the whole Nyn / Lan relationship came totally out of the blue.

 

And yet, there's details aplenty proving their mutual feelings (and I love that couple so much that I just happen to know them all by heart ;))

 

She defends him on the road to Shadar Logoth:

"If you were close enough to see them," Egwene said worriedly, "they could have seen you. They could

be right on your heels."

"He was not seen." Nynaeve drew herself up as everyone looked at her. "I have followed his trail,

remember."

 

In Shadar Logoth she worries about him being out in the city by night and when she finds him and Moiraine the next day she avoids his stare.

 

It becomes even more obvious with this:

"If only there was some way to get rid of the woman. Lan would be better by himself - a Warder should be able to handle what was needed, she told herself hastily, feeling a sudden flush; no other reason - but one meant the other.

And yet, Lan made her even more furious than Moiraine. She could not understand how he managed to get under her skin so easily"

 

Lan starts going against Moiraine's will to protect her:

 

"You should go back to your Two Rivers when we reach Whitebridge, and the Caemlyn Road. It's too dangerous here. Nothing will try to stop you going back, though." It was the longest speech he made all that day.

"She is part of the Pattern, Lan," Moiraine said chidingly.

 

And then of course, when he is willing to break his own oaths to rescue her:

"Nynaeve has not returned. I fear that young woman has done something foolish." Lan spun on his heel as if to return the way they had come, but a single whip-crack word from Moiraine halted him. "No!" He stood looking at her sideways, only his face and hands truly visible, and they but dimly shadowed blurs. She went on in a gentler tone; gentler but no less firm.

"Some things are more important than others. You know that." The Warder did not move, and her voice hardened again. "Remember your oaths, al'Lan Mandragoran, Lord of the Seven Towers! What of the oath of a Diademed Battle Lord of the Malkieri?"

(...)

She slid down off Bela, but as she started toward the Emond's Fielders Lan caught her arm and she stopped short, staring up at him.

"We must go, Lan," Moiraine said, once more sounding unruffled, and the Warder released his grip. Nynaeve rubbed her arm as she hurried to hug Egwene, but Perrin thought he heard her give a low laugh, too. It puzzled him because he did not think it had anything to do with her happiness at seeing them again.

 

Sorry for the lenghty quotes, it seemed clearer that way ;D

[aevogt]

Trakand01 hit the mark.

 

We know that RJ had the basic story outlined, if not necessarily fleshed out, before the first novel was published.

 

As a character important to the last battle, how do you keep alive until the end of the storey if you take Moraine out halfway through.

 

Ansewr, give him someone to live for.  It's truly a brilliant move.  It keeps us interested in Lan's character but it rounds out the Nyneave character and helps her grow into a more likable person.  It also adds a sub-plot that helps tie the sea-folk tighter into the main plot.

 

It gives RJ an excuse to have an army ready to fight at TG, curtesy of Nyneave becoming more selfless, despite her Yellow Ajah arrogance.

 

[wvlr]

Hot Question!

 

When Moraine per transfered the bond to Myerlle do you think that she might have intentianally or UN-INTENTIALLY created a transfer that would Bounce back to her when she is healed?

 

IE  will Lan maybe suddenly KNOW that Moraine is back?

 

That would be be great!    Ny on one of her weekly visits to Lan (on his cross country trip) suddenly says.    "Ny guess what - Moraine is back!"

[42Bonzo88]

    Luthine has the right idea of the attraction dating all the way back to Emond's Field. Here is a girl who lost her mother when very young and being raised by a (we're assuming) male-Chauvinist-pig, manly-man, who raised her the best he could, with the knoweledge HE had, she had to fight her way to become Wisdom and show the Women's Circle that she is a woman and is able to carry out such a big position at such a young age.

 

    Now, into Emond's Field comes this LADY, there is no other way to describe her, probably everything Nyn wanted or dreamed of being (even if she wouldn't admit it to herself) with her warder. The warder is everything her father is, or was, but also treating Moiraine as a lady should be treated.

 

    Yes, she is furious with Moiraine for taking the boys away, but is she also extremely jealous of this LADY who has probably the one man who Nyn has dreamed of her entire life and she has impressed him with what her father taught her.

But can she ever compete with such a lady?

Sorry for being so long, and I hope it makes sense, but that is how I see it.

[Rising Lion]

Well, try to think of the time frame here. I mean, traveling on foot takes a pretty long time. I'm not sure how long Moraine, Nynaeve, and Lan, but a lot of that time was offscreen, and I'm sure their relationship grew during that time. I mean, it's still a bit of stretch, but it's a bit more believable that they liked each other at first, just a crush, like at Shadar Logoth, and eventually grew to love each other as they traveled together. I think a lot of the growing of their relationship we just didn't see. RJ was an amazing writer, but other than Aviendha and Rand, we don't see any relationships growing. Rand and Elayne? Please. A couple of kisses in hallways and she doesn't see him for like a year and then she hops into bed with him. And don't even get me started with Min. Ugh! RJ was not a writer of love stories. I think he just avoided writing it explicitly because it wasn't his style of writing.

 

Also, I don't remember it ever being said Nynave's father was a male chauvinist pig, just that he was very male and taught her masculine things.

[Korin Caylin]

I think that she started developing them when on the road with him and Moiraine to Whitebridge. She certainly seems to feel awkward enough around him and she is always mentioning his blue eyes.... Just my thoughts. *flees*

[Luthine]

Well, try to think of the time frame here. I mean, traveling on foot takes a pretty long time. I'm not sure how long Moraine, Nynaeve, and Lan, but a lot of that time was offscreen, and I'm sure their relationship grew during that time.

 

They were travelling on horse but I see your point. Except that Nyn mentions that during their travel, Lan is absent most of the day scouting ahead and when he's with them, barely says a word. And yet, when they rescue Perrin, we know that she has feelings for him, and that they're reciprocated.

 

Sure, they've got their problems, but he talks about having nothing to give a bride after what, a few months ... possibly even weeks (I'm sure someone can do a timeline) at best? It's not as if Lan is the kinda guy who likes to sit and talk long into the night now, is it?

 

So yeah, it seems a bit crushy to me. As a result, I thought it was very naff. Though now they're good as a couple.

 

It never struck me when I first read it because at that time, I didn't know the aspect RJ was going to give his love stories. Was it going to be a Martin-ish crude and realistic view or more a Tolkien-ish, idealized and somewhat naff? In EotW it's clearly the 2nd view which is adopted and I think that is due to the fact that RJ intended to make a trilogy yet.

Later in the series it changes and I just put that in the list of the small things which happen in EotW and don't quite fit in with the 'spirit' of the rest of the series.

 

RJ was an amazing writer, but other than Aviendha and Rand, we don't see any relationships growing.

We did get to see Morgase and Tallanvor and huh... that's about it! :P

[aevogt]

We watched Perrin run from Faile as hard as he could for the better part of two books before he accepted that particular fate.  Say what you want, she made a man out of him.

 

Berelain pursued Perrin for 8 books but that's not going anywhere.

 

Mat and just about anything with a set of curves, a trait he and I share.  Which is why his marriage to the boyishly slim Tuon gave me a good chuckle.  My own wife was 5'10' and 115 lbs.  It was like squeezing a sack full of coathangers.

 

Mat being turned into Tylin's pretty and Elayne busting him on it.  That was classic.

 

 

[42Bonzo88]

    Great one aevogt!! That is still my favorite Mat scene close second is the strapping he gives to the Aes Sedai!