Is RJ a mysogynist or what?

[torrente]

Seriously, what are his reasons for writing such poor ungrateful female characters who do nothing but bitch all day and come up with putdowns for men in particular but also for each other at the cost of attending to important matters? If you look at Rand, Perrin, etc, they usually put away their personal issues and keep their eye on the ball.

 

The only female characters I actually like are Faile, Birgitte and Moiraine.

[torrente]

and Min.

[Guest LurkingFadeFetcher]

look at it this way:

As a male, do you understand how the oppposite sex thinks well enough to write a believable character. Do you understand how their minds really work, how and why they do certain things. Such as: Why do women always go to the bathroom in groups? And why do they seem to gossip about anything?

on the other hand: Why do men seem to like violence and power so much? Why do all men seem to like cars?

I have no idea what the questions might really be, but the point is this: Very few, if any, authors can claim that they understand how both sexes think and act well enough to make a story beleivable and all of the characters liked or hated by everyone.

[Rufae]

RJ has said that the females in his life growing up were all strong willed independant women. So this is where he based mot of his female characters actions off of.

[BrainFireBob]

He also bases them all off his wife, and he's been both praised and criticized by women for how well he writes them- meaning his women are realisitc, they just don't represent the entire spectrum.

[redbj]

got to agree with the opening post.

 

barring moraine who eventually accepts she needs to adjust to help rand they are all just a bit loopy.

 

really...why the hell is eggy and elayne in particular so hell bent on doing things with out his help...he's the bloody dragon reborn...get together all of you, bow down to rand and get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world.

 

jordan could have made the lead females a bit easier to get along with and less predictable in my humble opinion.

[torrente]

In Book 5 there is literally a gender putdown on every second page, which really pissed me off and I wished he would just put all these putdowns and insults and stuff into one volume and whoever wanted to buy it could do so and read about woolheaded lumoxes to their heart's content.

[Rufae]

I think he is being realistic rather than idealistic. In real life, how often do you hear a woman when asked about men say something to the effect, "Yeah men are great, level headed people. I know a real frood who really knows where his towel is."

 

Likewise, when men get asked about women... "Women are the sunshine of the world who always have it together - so peaceful so calm. Plus they know the wing speed velocity of an unladen swallow."

 

Men and women always gib each other in real life and I think it would be even more so in WoT since the whole males broke the world thing. Gosh, women always have to blame it on the men.... *hopes people see that he is joking *

[torrente]

I think he is being realistic rather than idealistic. In real life' date=' how often do you hear a woman when asked about men say something to the effect, "Yeah men are great, level headed people. I know a real frood who really knows where his towel is."

 

Likewise, when men get asked about women... "Women are the sunshine of the world who always have it together - so peaceful so calm. Plus they know the wing speed velocity of an unladen swallow."

 

Men and women always gib each other in real life and I think it would be even more so in WoT since the whole males broke the world thing. Gosh, women always have to blame it on the men.... *hopes people see that he is joking *[/quote']

 

Yeah I understand that to an extent . . . it's a reflection on real life relations between the genders . . .

 

At first I thought it was just a representation on the split between saidin/saidar and the hurt that saidin loosed on the world and thus men are held in poor regard . . . but he hasn't completed that thought so it's probably not a theme . . .

 

Oh well.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah I understand that to an extent . . . it's a reflection on real life relations between the genders . . .

 

At first I thought it was just a representation on the split between saidin/saidar and the hurt that saidin loosed on the world and thus men are held in poor regard . . . but he hasn't completed that thought so it's probably not a theme . . .

 

Its actually a combination of both. Women are probably slightly more domineering in Randland than in real life, because of the stigma of the "unbeliever" which is extended somewhat to all men. The Aes Sedai certainly fall into that category.

 

I think that slightly altered interplay is one of the most realistic things he's done.

[redbj]

I think he is being realistic rather than idealistic. In real life' date=' how often do you hear a woman when asked about men say something to the effect, "Yeah men are great, level headed people. I know a real frood who really knows where his towel is."

 

Likewise, when men get asked about women... "Women are the sunshine of the world who always have it together - so peaceful so calm. Plus they know the wing speed velocity of an unladen swallow."

 

Men and women always gib each other in real life and I think it would be even more so in WoT since the whole males broke the world thing. Gosh, women always have to blame it on the men.... *hopes people see that he is joking *[/quote']

 

yeah, but even his married couples are fairly shallow, they dont talk through problems and resolves issues....from the extreme bit part players like the innkeepers wives whose husbands they thwart at every move to nyn and her treatment of lan in the last book and everything in between....

 

why doesnt he just have a couple who can talk through a bloody issue like in real life.

[Naudran Grimnir]

why doesnt he just have a couple who can talk through a bloody issue like in real life.

 

And you think that happens in real life? There is a specific reason that divorce rates are increasing the whole world over...

[Beckon]

You don't know that they don't talk through stuff. Nynaeve and Lan's relationship issues aren't relevant to the story. Most of the gender biased comments made in various PoVs are bluster.

 

The women that are different are so because of their particular cultures. Min grew up in a mining town, around men as evidenced by her preference for pants. Faile is Saldean where men are expected to put their foot down, which is why she's always all wounded when Perrin would rather just let her have her way than argue. Nynaeve and Lan have the public/private Malkeiri thing going on, though Nynaeve is always noticing Lan speaing out of turn. Lan is in charge though when they're alone and Nynaeve seems to accept it and isn't really bothered when he speaks out of turn in public. Birgitte is...well she's just Birgitte, she's a hero out of legend and I see her as unique.

[RobertAlexWillis]

why doesnt he just have a couple who can talk through a bloody issue like in real life.

 

That IS pretty rare in real life. Especially when real life was without marriage counseling, prenups, divorce lawyers, etc, etc. People just stayed together, but many times they didn't really get along, or communicate well.

 

That said, there are couples that function. Lan and Nynaeve have found a balance, in what has got to be an almost impossible situation. Rand has struck a balance with his harem. Mat and Tuon have some work to do, but I was glad that RJ used her POV's to show that despite her utterly cool exterior, Mat has gotten under her skin too. And I have no doubt they'll find their balance.

 

Perrin and Faile's "dysfunctionality" is overrated, because Faile wants them to be fighting. Its deliberate. She wants a man who challenges her, because it implies, in her mind, that he thinks she is strong enough to take it. Plus, she likes make up sex. And believe me, there are people like that in the real world. So while Perrin is often confused, he's not actually terribly unhappy with it. He didn't marry her thinking she was a docile cupcake.

 

I wouldn't PERSONALLY get along with Faile. But she isn't bad for Perrin.

 

We're seeing couples in times of world-ending stress. If anything is going to make tempers flare, its the situations they find themselves in. Despite the arguing and sometimes harsh words, these people are magnificently loyal to each other.

[Luckers]

I actuallly think that the way he has played it is realistic to the society in which he rights these people. I mean, the Aiel who have retained a decent level of gender balance retain good gender relations. The Wetlands, wherein the highest political level can only be held by women, you see this issue. I think this is one of the themes he has delt with, espcially with the return of male channelers.

[Guest Anonymous!]

I don't think he is a misogynist, but he is a sexist. The scenes between Mat and Tylin clearly demonstrated that, and I'm always astonished when people say they found those scene's funny. As a result of those scenes and the subsequent reactions of other characters, I truly began to dislike Jordan as a person. I mean I began to dislike the series between TFoH and CoT, but that is when I stopped liking him.

 

I have found that one of the worst things a human can do is burning books since in essence you are trying to destroy knowledge, and yet with ACoS, I literally wanted to burn the book. I didn't but the desire was strong, and I had to stop reading for a time before I could finish the book. I went online to see if others found the scenes as offensive as I did. There were a few people, but most people thought they were the best things since "sliced bread." I was dumbfounded.

 

Those scenes made me wonder if I went about reading fantasy literature wrong. Am I supposed to read the books and only draw the conclusions that the author tells me to draw (i.e. do as I'm told)? Or am I supposed to read the facts presented by the author and draw my own conclusions? Every fantasy author I have read has tried to impart a message of "this is right and that is wrong." Some have even gone so far as telling us mistakes and poor decisions on the part of the main characters were not their faults or were the right decisions, even though it was their fault and their mistake. And I have always found myself agreeing or disagreeing with fantasy authors on their perceptions on certain issues. Is that the wrong way to approach it? Should I just say "It's the author's world, so it is the way the author says?" Because sometimes my disagreement with an author causes me to stop liking a story I had enjoyed up until that point.

 

Mat with Tylin is the perfect example. Through a series of humiliating events Mat is essentially sexually assaulted repeatedly. And from his and other character PoV, Jordan just brushes aside the assaults by saying he got his just deserts. In fact he has Mat's "love of his life" constantly throwing the violations back in his face by calling him "toy." He actually had him mourn Tylin's death. He paints them as comical and a sort of balancing of Karma for all his womanizing. Which reminds me, how many women has he slept with? The only one I remember is the darkfriend aiel. He danced with a lot of girls, but I don't actually remember him bedding them.

 

Even if he did bed them, they CHOSE to sleep with him. He spent money, time, effort (usually in the form of dancing) to get them to like him, and they chose to sleep with him. We saw plenty of women reject him. If they chose to sleep with him because he danced well, then that was their choice. He never deprived them of their free will, nor did he force them against their free will. After Cairhein he certainly had the means. He had the Band of 3,000-6,000 soldiers, and he could have had his soldiers drag any "bar wench" into a room, undress them at knife point, and had sex with them. Yet he didn't. But Jordan wants us to believe that Tylin using her servants and soldiers to undress, starve him, and/or hold him at knife point was the same as him dancing with a girl and her choosing to sleep with him.

 

Mat had no choice. She was a queen with an army and control over the whole city. She could force him to do what she wanted and she did. She didn't care that he was begging and pleading with her not to do it. She didn't care that he practically wept the day after one such attack. She took what she wanted and there was nothing Mat could do about it. It was appalling. And yet people are quoting it as their favorite scenes.

 

And yet this is not the problem. No! Jordan says the reason Mat is upset is because "he's supposed to do the chasing." It's not because he said "no", and she took him anyway. It's not because he begged her not to when taken at knife point. It's not because he was deprived food for days so he would be forced to sleep with her. It's because he is a man and is supposed to do the chasing. Or that's what is written ... just deserts. It's funny ... :x

 

Add to this that Jordan is trying to tell us that bonding a man against his will is akin to getting raped. Feel sorry for Rand, and the violation he has suffered. But let us all laugh at Mat as he is forced against his will to have sex with someone he wouldn't touch with a ten meter cattle prod. You know ACTUAL sexual assault.

 

So am I reading the books wrong? One person I know that reads TWoT actually once said to me "My favorite fight scene was the fight between Lan and Ryn." I responded "How can that be your favorite fight scene, you didn't even see it?" And you know what he said, "Well yeah, but it was awesome in my head." So am I missing something? Am I supposed to not read the text on the pages? Am I supposed to give credit to Jordan for my imagination? Am I supposed to read what I "want" to be there and not what is actually written? Should I take the part of my mind screaming at how wrong this is, shove it in a corner, and just laugh at the scenes?

[Beckon]

I don't get the sense that Mat is terribly bothered by the whole situation with Tylin. He's baffled by it surely because that behavior is so contrary to anything he's seen in a woman before. Mat at no point that I remember ever flat out says "no". He plays her game. She chases, he runs. There's a passage I just read in WH, where he's trying to leave the palace to go talk to Aludra without any of the servants seeing him, but he gets distracted and one sneaks up to him. They summon him to Tylin and he thinks to himself "well it wasn't really that important anyway". I don't see any reason to think that if he'd come out and said "no, I'm not interested" that Tylin wouldn't have left him alone. Even a lot of the complaining he does about it reads like Mat trying to convince himself, such as the lace. Only because Tylin hid his regular clothes. Yep. That's it, only that. He walks through Luca's camp flourishing his gaudy cloak at every woman he sees, then bristles at the site of Luca doing the same.

[Lord Beric]

With regards to the Mat/Tylin scenes, Anonymous!, I think there are a couple of mitigating factors that tip the scenes/situation more towards the comic side of things. However, that being said, I feel that their interactions are meant to be a little uncomfortable, more along dark-comedy lines than traditional sit-com lines. (Although, now that I've said it, I can definitely see similar themes running through various sit-com episodes.)

 

Anyway, first, Mat several times says that he would not have been opposed to engaging in a sexual relationship with Tylin (I think its one of the first things he thinks to himself upon seeing her). His reasons for being so uncomfortable with the situation are mostly due to culture clash (the whole "I'm the one who's supposed to be doing the chasing" mentality).

 

Secondly, most of the 'comedy' of the situation actually comes from the reactions that other people have to finding out about what's happening. For example, Beslan's reaction, as well as Nynaeve and Elayne's original assumptions that Mat is the one doing the taking advantage, and their later reactions upon finding out the truth.

 

As far as later permutations of the plot (Tuon's constant digs at Mat, and Mat mourning Tylin's death), it becomes apparent that Mat does indeed come to care for Tylin, regardless of the manner in which their relationship started out.

 

Personally, I found the Mat/Tylin interaction to be, for lack of better words, "terrifyingly hilarious," because, as one who has been known to be a bit of a womanizer myself, and having occasionally been put in the position of being chased instead of doing the chasing, I felt that Mat's reactions were remarkably realistic. However, I have found that most of RJ's depictions of male/female interactions tend to mirror my own in most ways.

[Rufae]

I never got the impression that Mat was forced against his will into sex. It was more confusion because in the Two Rivers, boys do the courting and chasing with the proper rituals etc...

 

The time when he was near tears was his feeling that the "proper way" of courtship was being tossed on its head. That was what he felt bad about. In his mind, you had to do things traditionally. Tylin was basically saying, "I will be with you tonight. Be ready." and Mat never encountered that direct approach before.

 

I really think that if Mat was really trying to get away from her, he would have. He had a 6,000 strong elite trained army at his immediate disposal. He could have ended it at any time if he was truely upset.

[Wanderer]

He didn't have any man except a dozen Redarms, he was in the Royal Palace, the center of Tylin's power and he was in Ebou Dar to find something the whole bloody world needed.

Beside he even had to worry about the fool girls, Elayne and Nynaeve, who could be probably touched by Tylin's anger, not to mention Tom Juilin Olver and the Redarms.

She had to use a weapon, a knife, to make him do what she wanted...and about Mat's opinion :

 

"You can't do this to me," he mumbled at her

.

.

Mat put a hand over his eyes and tried very hard not to weep. When he uncovered them, she was gone.

 

Frankly this is called forcing someone against his/her will...

 

This is Setalle Anan speaking :

 

"You don't know our ways, that is the trouble," she

said. "Pretties are an old and honored custom in Altara. Many a young man or woman has a final fling as a pretty, pampered and showered with presents, before settling down. But you see, a pretty leaves when she chooses. Tylin shouldn't be treating you as I hear she is."

 

So Tylin even restricts his personal freedom for several (!) days.

 

And by the way I hated when Elayne said "a taste of his own medicine" after making fun of him; Mat is even part of the people she should protect as a queen...

[redbj]

why doesnt he just have a couple who can talk through a bloody issue like in real life.

 

That IS pretty rare in real life. Especially when real life was without marriage counseling' date=' prenups, divorce lawyers, etc, etc. People just stayed together, but many times they didn't really get along, or communicate well.

 

That said, there are couples that function. Lan and Nynaeve have found a balance, in what has got to be an almost impossible situation. Rand has struck a balance with his harem. Mat and Tuon have some work to do, but I was glad that RJ used her POV's to show that despite her utterly cool exterior, Mat has gotten under her skin too. And I have no doubt they'll find their balance.

 

Perrin and Faile's "dysfunctionality" is overrated, because Faile wants them to be fighting. Its deliberate. She wants a man who challenges her, because it implies, in her mind, that he thinks she is strong enough to take it. Plus, she likes make up sex. And believe me, there are people like that in the real world. So while Perrin is often confused, he's not actually terribly unhappy with it. He didn't marry her thinking she was a docile cupcake.

 

I wouldn't PERSONALLY get along with Faile. But she isn't bad for Perrin.

 

We're seeing couples in times of world-ending stress. If anything is going to make tempers flare, its the situations they find themselves in. Despite the arguing and sometimes harsh words, these people are magnificently loyal to each other.[/quote']

 

true true...but this whole striking the balance stuff is a bit silly to me.

 

these are grown adults we are talking about here....and in a few cases its implied they are destined for each other, i dont think it unrealistic for them to listen to each others opinions and just stop manipulating each other.

 

using lan and nyn for example...she drops him off at the end of the bloody world after tricking him. nice basis for a relationship.

 

as for your assumption that couples behave like that....and the person above you, i just kinda feel a bit sorry for you(i mean no offense) if thats the extent of your view on male female relationships.

 

all im saying....and maybe not every character...but how about a relationship from one of the main characters that doesnt involve schemeing and pulling braids and muttering under the breath and oneupmanship everywhere.

 

im married. i support my wife. she supports me. we work as a team, yes, we might argue, but nothing like the characters he portrays.

 

as for the terrible times line of thought....wouldn't that make you more inclined to appreciate and communicate with your loved ones? at a time of crisis most people seem to want to share with their friends and family...not the opposite.

[redbj]

just re read me post...the jibe about feeling sorry for you comes across all pompous and smartarseish...sorry bout that...wasn't meant to be, just ignore i even said that.

[Razor]

Is Jordan a sexist or is he just trying to invent different societies.

 

He has 2 rivers mores and ebou dari mores and senchan slavery and everything in between.

 

Where did RJ say one was right oand one wrong.

 

He's just telling stories and in doing so is making up different cultures.

 

I am often offended by how some of the cultures act, however, I have not been offended by Jordan.

 

Can't day the same about George Martin and Song of Fire and Ice. There is some pretty depraved, sick stuff in there.

[Zardi]

Anonymous!, those scenes between Mat and Tylin bothered me, as well. If he wanted a relationship with her, starving him and holding him at knife point would not have been necessary. However, I do have a problem with something you said in your post:

Add to this that Jordan is trying to tell us that bonding a man against his will is akin to getting raped. Feel sorry for Rand, and the violation he has suffered.

Just because RJ diminishes what is done to Mat doesn't make what is done to Rand less terrible. Alanna forced herself on Rand just as Tylin forced herself on Mat, but without the physical aspects, and Alanna outright refuses to release Rand (whereas Tylin eventually let Mat go). Alanna is now privy to Rand's feelings, against his will, and his life (in theory) is now tied to hers: remember that warders almost always die when their Aes Sedai do, and while this may not happen to Rand because of his bonds with Min/Elayne/Aviendha, we don't know for sure...and in any case, when Alanna bonded Rand, he didn't have the other bonds to potentially protect him. Alanna tied Rand's life to hers against his will, and refuses to let him go. You don't think that's as bad as rape?

[torrente]

I hear a lot of excuses being made to try and justify some of rj's writing, whereas the simplest answer is staring you in the face.

 

I haven't finished Cos, but yeah it just sounds like dark comedy to me so far, thanks for the spoilers. I think RJ is doing himself a disservice in including sexist passages into what is otherwise a pretty good series.