Lanfear’s actions makes no sense

[DojoToad]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:32 PM, Sabio said:

There is a difference between never growing old and able to be brought back from death.  Remember even Moiraine told Rand death is permanent.  The little they know of the Forsaken has most of them going over for power not immortality.  Few people know of the DO's ability to stuff a soul back into a body.  To almost everyone of the time, once you're dead that's it.

 

18 hours ago, Sabio said:

Every expects the pattern will spin people out again and again.  But no one expects someone to die and then be walking around again a month later.  

I'm obviously not understanding your point, because you appear to be contradicting yourself.  In the first quote 'once you're dead that's it'.  In the second quote 'the pattern will spin people out again and again'.  Straighten me out here.

 

Where you say 'no one expects people to die and be walking around again a month later' - I disagree.  When 'reincarnation' is discussed in the books, there is not a timeframe given that I can recall.  Can be a month or 500 years.

Edited April 1, 2023 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

22 hours ago, DojoToad said:

When 'reincarnation' is discussed in the books, there is not a timeframe given that I can recall.  Can be a month or 500 years.

Normally, if you're reborn a month later, it's not as a full grown adult.
That's part of the DO's "perversion" of the wheel.

[Sabio]

On 4/1/2023 at 10:24 AM, DojoToad said:

 

I'm obviously not understanding your point, because you appear to be contradicting yourself.  In the first quote 'once you're dead that's it'.  In the second quote 'the pattern will spin people out again and again'.  Straighten me out here.

 

Where you say 'no one expects people to die and be walking around again a month later' - I disagree.  When 'reincarnation' is discussed in the books, there is not a timeframe given that I can recall.  Can be a month or 500 years.

What I meant by dead is dead is if Perin dies then Perin is dead.  Eventually his soul will be spun out again.   But he would be a new person.  People expect that sooner or later a soul will be spun out again.  If Perin was to be reborn, he would be an infant.  If it somehow it was just a month, Perin would be a baby with no memories of his past life.  When you're being spun out again, you're a new person.  What people think is impossible or don't know about is the DO being able to take your soul and place it in a body.  Now your soul is in an adult body with memories of who you were.  Ishy died but the actual Ishy soul might be in a new body but it still remembers being Ishy, at times behaves like Ishy etc.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/2/2023 at 7:17 PM, Sabio said:

What I meant by dead is dead is if Perin dies then Perin is dead.  Eventually his soul will be spun out again.   But he would be a new person.  People expect that sooner or later a soul will be spun out again.  If Perin was to be reborn, he would be an infant.  If it somehow it was just a month, Perin would be a baby with no memories of his past life.  When you're being spun out again, you're a new person.  What people think is impossible or don't know about is the DO being able to take your soul and place it in a body.  Now your soul is in an adult body with memories of who you were.  Ishy died but the actual Ishy soul might be in a new body but it still remembers being Ishy, at times behaves like Ishy etc.  

This idea always intrigued me. The inhabitants of the WOT world are all aware and accept (not just a religious or personal belief depending on the person as in our world but seemingly a basic fact known to everyone) that the wheel spins out their souls in an infinite cycle. Basically making the substance or essence or soul, the core consciousness immortal but the specific “identity” and circumstances change from life to life. In contrast, the forsaken have the perspective or desire to achieve immortality through maintaining continuity of one version of identity or aspect of self existing indefinitely. I wonder if that is why moridin aka all of his previous names got to the point where he just had enough and wanted to be done with the whole thing?

[Disco]

I am 40 years old and read the series again, having joined when book 7 was released.

 

After reading this thread all I wanted to say was - as a kid, I was obsessed with the idea the male Aiel channelers would have been turned. It was the only thing that made sense to me. I thought if that shadow had any sense they'd park some black ajah and mydraal north of the Aiel. Since the dark one could grant immortality... Anyway it used to frustrate me that no one had thought of this and I wondered if Jordan had 

 

[Asthereal]

8 minutes ago, Disco said:

I am 40 years old and read the series again, having joined when book 7 was released.

 

After reading this thread all I wanted to say was - as a kid, I was obsessed with the idea the male Aiel channelers would have been turned. It was the only thing that made sense to me. I thought if that shadow had any sense they'd park some black ajah and mydraal north of the Aiel. Since the dark one could grant immortality... Anyway it used to frustrate me that no one had thought of this and I wondered if Jordan had 

 

He had, I'm pretty sure. 🙂 

Harriet remarked at the panel of the release of AMOL that the whole idea of finding someone to finish the series started with Jordan sick in his bed saying: "there's a hmm hmm at the hmm hmm" (avoiding spoilers, of course). And I'm pretty sure he was talking about the village in the Blight where the Shadow sends the male Aiel channelers after turning them. Sanderson embraced the idea and incorperated it into book 14 as a nice early reveal to start the final volume strong.

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, Disco said:

I am 40 years old and read the series again, having joined when book 7 was released.

 

After reading this thread all I wanted to say was - as a kid, I was obsessed with the idea the male Aiel channelers would have been turned. It was the only thing that made sense to me. I thought if that shadow had any sense they'd park some black ajah and mydraal north of the Aiel. Since the dark one could grant immortality... Anyway it used to frustrate me that no one had thought of this and I wondered if Jordan had 

 

You're just smarter than the rest of us.  Or at least smarter than me...  😁

[Disco]

I have to say that I don't hate the "lanfear survived" theory

 

She was completely full of her own self worth so it's not surprising that she thought that everyone would chase her down unless she faked her death

 

She went against the dark one multiple times showing she was more like a mordeth character - some form of separate evil

 

Lastly the final interaction between her and Rand I think showed that she never wanted to be sworn to the dark one but whatever occurred she could not show vulnerability to someone else by proving it to Rand. 

 

I feel like there could be more to her than people realise... Haven't thought this one threw but maybe she really did love Lews Therin... Maybe yes power was great and she had a hard time expressing her love but I had the impression that part of the reason she couldn't show Rand her true self was he would see how much she did love Lews.

 

PS. I also couldn't help but wonder if Demandred might have been under the slightest bit of complusion to amplify his hatred of Lews. Everyone remarked how overwhelming it was in an otherwise logical person and Rand spoke about his turning being the "most tragic". 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Disco

[Sabio]

Dem was most likely partially insane at the end because of his relying on the True power from the DO.  One of the side effects is insanity.  He had to use so it would seem like divine power he was using in Shara.   At the end I'm pretty sure Dem was suffering side effects of the True Power.   Moghi even remarked how Dem had changed since being around the Sharans. 

 

Dem's issue was the second place syndrome.  He was always coming in second to LTT.  LTT was born a day before Dem, LTT was stronger in the power, considered a better general, held higher offices, LTT even won the heart of the Lady Dem liked.  Even back in the War of Power Dem was obsessed with being the one to destroy the Dragon.  I think the True Power just heightened Dem's obsession.

[Disco]

All good points. I guess my complusion theory is more of a "where I would have gone with it" rather than a legitimate theory 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/8/2023 at 2:30 PM, Disco said:

I have to say that I don't hate the "lanfear survived" theory

 

She was completely full of her own self worth so it's not surprising that she thought that everyone would chase her down unless she faked her death

 

She went against the dark one multiple times showing she was more like a mordeth character - some form of separate evil

 

Lastly the final interaction between her and Rand I think showed that she never wanted to be sworn to the dark one but whatever occurred she could not show vulnerability to someone else by proving it to Rand. 

 

I feel like there could be more to her than people realise... Haven't thought this one threw but maybe she really did love Lews Therin... Maybe yes power was great and she had a hard time expressing her love but I had the impression that part of the reason she couldn't show Rand her true self was he would see how much she did love Lews.

 

PS. I also couldn't help but wonder if Demandred might have been under the slightest bit of complusion to amplify his hatred of Lews. Everyone remarked how overwhelming it was in an otherwise logical person and Rand spoke about his turning being the "most tragic". 

I always wondered whether lanfears obsessive love for LTT was real or not, and if it was, how much it influenced her psyche and actions once she was set aside by him. Love makes people do crazy things sometimes….

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:37 PM, Sabio said:

Dem was most likely partially insane at the end because of his relying on the True power from the DO.  One of the side effects is insanity.  He had to use so it would seem like divine power he was using in Shara.   At the end I'm pretty sure Dem was suffering side effects of the True Power.   Moghi even remarked how Dem had changed since being around the Sharans. 

 

Dem's issue was the second place syndrome.  He was always coming in second to LTT.  LTT was born a day before Dem, LTT was stronger in the power, considered a better general, held higher offices, LTT even won the heart of the Lady Dem liked.  Even back in the War of Power Dem was obsessed with being the one to destroy the Dragon.  I think the True Power just heightened Dem's obsession.

This might be off topic and possibly needs its own thread, but I have some confusion about the true power….if it comes with risks including insanity, what is the purpose or benefit that draws or tempts moridin or dem or whoever of channeling it instead of one power?

[Sabio]

The main thing is it is considered a sign of the DO's favor since only the DO can grant access.  I think in the books there was an instance of a Forsaken using it to show another Forsaken that the DO was rewarding them.  The book mentioned that a total of 29 people throughout history had the privilege to being allowed to use it   It's undetectable, none of the things that can stop someone from channeling stops the True Power.  In many ways more powerful since a man or woman can use it.  It's quicker in some cases, like traveling you  seem to just vanish without channeling a gateway.  There aren't the limitations of a normal gateway such as having to be familiar with your location.  The main issue is it's high addictive and leads to insanity.  The Companion explains that even the Forsaken were reluctant to use it since the drawbacks were so severe.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:02 PM, Sabio said:

The main thing is it is considered a sign of the DO's favor since only the DO can grant access.  I think in the books there was an instance of a Forsaken using it to show another Forsaken that the DO was rewarding them.  The book mentioned that a total of 29 people throughout history had the privilege to being allowed to use it   It's undetectable, none of the things that can stop someone from channeling stops the True Power.  In many ways more powerful since a man or woman can use it.  It's quicker in some cases, like traveling you  seem to just vanish without channeling a gateway.  There aren't the limitations of a normal gateway such as having to be familiar with your location.  The main issue is it's high addictive and leads to insanity.  The Companion explains that even the Forsaken were reluctant to use it since the drawbacks were so severe.

Ohhhh ok thank you for your explanation, that makes complete sense. So that means when Rand tapped into it during the semirrage debacle (probably mispelled that) it was because the DO himself allowed him to? Wow! 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Ohhhh ok thank you for your explanation, that makes complete sense. So that means when Rand tapped into it during the semirrage debacle (probably mispelled that) it was because the DO himself allowed him to? Wow! 

Either that or Rand, being the special guy he is, reached out and took what he needed out of desperation.  Perhaps made possible by his 'connection' to Moridin...

Edited April 13, 2023 by DojoToad

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

35 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Either that or Rand, being the special guy he is, reached out and took what he needed out of desperation.  Perhaps made possible by his 'connection' to Moridin...

That’s how I perceived it when I first read it 

[HeronMarkedBlade]

So weird to see people argue an author did or didn't intend something when he said he intended it. 

 

You can say it's badly done, but you have zero basis to work from to say it wasn't Sandersons intent. 

[Sabio]

Well authors do lie, RJ said Taimadred was never a thing, and we now know at one time RJ not only had Taimadred being real but Dem killing Asmo.  No one knows why he changed his mind, but we know when RJ was saying Taimadred wasn't a thing that he lied.  Just because BS or RJ said they intended this or that doesn't mean it was always that way.

[Scarloc99]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:24 PM, DojoToad said:

Right.  If the ability to channel were dominant there would be a lot more channelers.

Several times early on in the books different characters hint at the lack of powerful aes sedai being linked to how efficient the reds have been. We also see with the ashaman that there is a definite genetic element it being passed Father to son. So there is a definite genetic element to having the one power.